Backspacing ponderings...

[ntsqd]

I think an important distinction should be made regarding spacers. There are two types, those that fit btwn the wheel and the wheel hub over the existing studs; and those that bolt to the existing studs and then have their own set of wheel studs.

Extremely common to see road racers using the first type as they are rarely more the 3/8" thick. I can not imagine racing anything on the second type.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I think an important distinction should be made regarding spacers. There are two types, those that fit btwn the wheel and the wheel hub over the existing studs; and those that bolt to the existing studs and then have their own set of wheel studs.

Extremely common to see road racers using the first type as they are rarely more the 3/8" thick. I can not imagine racing anything on the second type.

Why? Extra shear force exerted on the outer studs?

 

[ntsqd]

In racing you want the fewest failure modes as is humanly possible. Bolt-on wheel spacers is adding 4 more failure modes, not to mention increasing the unsprung weight - something abhorrent to road racers.

Unless you had wheels with the kind of offset that dshock is using, the cyclic bending moment would be obscene. The fatigue life of the spacer would be very low. With the exception of exactly what dshock is doing, and what I believe bomar is intending to achieve, I view the bolt-on spacers as evil entities. Even then I'm not so sure.....

 

[John Galt]

Toyota sells 16" steel wheels for Landcruisers. Delivered cost $80 each. I have LT265-75R16 M+S on mine, no problems whatsoever.

 

[euclid]

I think an important distinction should be made regarding spacers. There are two types, those that fit btwn the wheel and the wheel hub over the existing studs; and those that bolt to the existing studs and then have their own set of wheel studs.

Extremely common to see road racers using the first type as they are rarely more the 3/8" thick. I can not imagine racing anything on the second type.

I can not imagine racing anything in a LandCruiser.

 

[ntsqd]

I can not imagine racing anything in a LandCruiser.

There are a couple threads here about some guys racing a 60 in South America. I seem to recall another one about racing in Oman or a country in that region too.

Even setting that aside, the loads encountered in the harder core off roading could easily exceed those in road racing.

I really don't care what folks do, I do care that they know what the trade-offs of their decisions are. To me the biggest crime of a forum is some guy saying "I'm thinking of doing this" and the responding posters saying "You'll have no trouble." Then it fails on the guy without his knowing why and those posters say "Oh, I guess we were wrong." What good is a forum if those whose education and/or experience leads them to believe there is potential for a problem and they don't say anything?
I may not be the most diplomatic about saying it, but saying it I will.

 

[weak-link]

Something to keep in mind is a suspension factor called Scrub Radius. Scrub Radius is the difference between where the steering axis intersects the ground and the center of the tire's contact patch. If they are the same point, then there is no scrub radius. If the center of the contact patch is outboard of the steering axis point on the ground, then the rocks the tire hits will have more leverage against the steering system. That works the steering box, the box mounts, the steering damper or ram, the wheel bearings, and all of the steering joints harder than if the contact patch center and steering axis ground point are in the same place. It also can lead to an increased tendency to wander going down the road as it can make the vehicle more sensitive to minor pavement irregularities.

The flip side is that the tire more rolls in turning than it pivots. This combined with the angle of the steering axis (& any Castor) means that turning the steering wheel causes the inside tire to have more load put on it (it's trying to lift that corner of the vehicle) and the outside tire to have some load removed. When you see Comp buggies sawing the steering wheel back and forth they are taking advantage of this to get traction.

I'd say that it really depends on what you're trying to do and are willing to live with. The increased wear on the wheel bearings would be a non-issue to a rig that only sees a few thousand miles a year. The ability to alternately load and unload the front tires is highly desired by some folks.

Neither is very desirable to me, but rock crawling isn't my use. Higher speed traversing of the desert is what I am building towards, and for that to work well a lot of scrub radius isn't a good thing.

Well OK, just seemed like the "stuffing it's ___ with bricks way of killing the cat" to me. I can see needing the spacers if the BS needed isn't available. My pref is to use as small of a spacer as possible. I'd rather go to longer studs than have a bolt-on spacer on something that sees lots of miles. Since you want steel, why not have Stockton or someone like them make the BS that you want? Seems like the total cost would come out less.

I really don't pay much attention to what the mfg says is the recommended rim size. They fit, they work, they don't have a excessively bulged tread indicating a too narrow rim, wtf would I care what the mfg says? I've nearly worn out that set of BFG's on those rims in something on the plus side of 30k of hard Baja & western desert miles. The tread is wearing evenly across the width, I can't ask for much more than that.

All Poo, no thanks!

I think an important distinction should be made regarding spacers. There are two types, those that fit btwn the wheel and the wheel hub over the existing studs; and those that bolt to the existing studs and then have their own set of wheel studs.

Extremely common to see road racers using the first type as they are rarely more the 3/8" thick. I can not imagine racing anything on the second type.

In racing you want the fewest failure modes as is humanly possible. Bolt-on wheel spacers is adding 4 more failure modes, not to mention increasing the unsprung weight - something abhorrent to road racers.

Unless you had wheels with the kind of offset that dshock is using, the cyclic bending moment would be obscene. The fatigue life of the spacer would be very low. With the exception of exactly what dshock is doing, and what I believe bomar is intending to achieve, I view the bolt-on spacers as evil entities. Even then I'm not so sure.....

There are a couple threads here about some guys racing a 60 in South America. I seem to recall another one about racing in Oman or a country in that region too.

Even setting that aside, the loads encountered in the harder core off roading could easily exceed those in road racing.

I really don't care what folks do, I do care that they know what the trade-offs of their decisions are. To me the biggest crime of a forum is some guy saying "I'm thinking of doing this" and the responding posters saying "You'll have no trouble." Then it fails on the guy without his knowing why and those posters say "Oh, I guess we were wrong." What good is a forum if those whose education and/or experience leads them to believe there is potential for a problem and they don't say anything?
I may not be the most diplomatic about saying it, but saying it I will.

you have alot of opinion's, care to post some evidence that your not some web engineer/wheeler?

If your worried about tire scrub, how about ackerman and don't forget those C-clip rear axles, they'll kill you and your family and a school bus full of children when they fail.



to the first post you'll find that alot of people have had no problems with bolt on spacers, I would guess the failure's are less then 15%(most likely installers error).


And All-Pro is a good company.

 

[ntsqd]

Find my intro thread, this is not the place. I am paid to have a considered opinion. If I don't have a considered opinion on something technical, or know nothing about the topic then I don't post unless to ask a question.

Ackerman is one of the least understood aspects of suspension geometry. At least judging by the posts that I see on it. Suffice to say that it is crucial to a road racer, but is a pretty low priority to an off roader. Especially one that is not driven fast. To one that is pavement driven it is important, but scrub radius is more important.

Where does that 15% number come from?

My experiences with All-Poo's owner are contrary to yours.

 

[cruiser88]

Find my intro thread, this is not the place. I am paid to have a considered opinion. If I don't have a considered opinion on something technical, or know nothing about the topic then I don't post unless to ask a question.

Ackerman is one of the least understood aspects of suspension geometry. At least judging by the posts that I see on it. Suffice to say that it is crucial to a road racer, but is a pretty low priority to an off roader. Especially one that is not driven fast. To one that is pavement driven it is important, but scrub radius is more important.

Where does that 15% number come from?

My experiences with All-Poo's owner are contrary to yours.

I have heard of any failures off hand..not saying there isn't any. I have heard of one fella here on mud getting a bad set of spacers. He was refunded.

Most people in the Toyota world has no issues with All-pro spacers out of the thousands very few complain. I would know if there was a problem..just as many others.

I think there is more positives than negatives. And this is not a vender bashing thread.

Trust me....if he was that bad of a vender he would not be in business.

 

[michael.e]

Spook

I am trying an angle on this. I am getting 16x8 wheels with a 5 inch backspacing and going to run a 1.5 spacer so that I bring it back to 3.5 but not to put the wheel out to far in the wheel well. I am going to run a 285/75.

I will be putting this setup on this weekend. I think that it should fill out the wheel well but still have the full range of motion.

Hey Bomar,
This setup is exactly what I am doing on my rig. I have the 5" backspaced rims and the 1.5" spacers already.

I have wanted to mock up the rim/spacer setup prior to purchasing the tires. I am looking at some 32"x10.5"x16" MT's. I am going to be looking closely at your findings, then I can FINALLY buy the tires and get this thing done..

Thanks,
Emee

 

[dshock]

Wow, ntsqd, you are full of opinions. I am certain that you have more experience with spacers than anyone on this forum - especially since you have made it clear that you would never use them. And, since you have made clear that you don't think people value your experience and education enough to value your opinion - I would have to point out that the exact opposite is true.

You are not listening or considering anyone else's opinion, though they may be steeped in experience and education.

Take me for example, 20,000 miles nearly the same setup as the original inquiry - spacers purchased from All Pro, absolutely no issues at all. Oh yeah, I may be slightly qualified to have an opinion having owned and wheeled 70 different rigs of all makes - And, I have two engineering degrees, one from MIT.

So, step back, keep your opinions in check. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but don't get pissed off when everyone doesn't share it.

The only word of caution about spacers is that they are a little more work. I am not a torque and forget type of mechanic. I check wheel torque with a torque wrench with each oil change, and 100 miles after initial toque. Without spacers this is a 5 minute job. With spacers it means that I have to remove the wheels check the spacer torque and then re-install and torque the wheel. 100 miles later I check the wheel lugs again. When I first installed the spacers, I checked the spacer torque at 0, 100 and 1000 miles. Never had a loose lug, but the piece of mind was worth the effort.

Regards,
Dan

 

[Bomar]

Hey Bomar,
This setup is exactly what I am doing on my rig. I have the 5" backspaced rims and the 1.5" spacers already.

I have wanted to mock up the rim/spacer setup prior to purchasing the tires. I am looking at some 32"x10.5"x16" MT's. I am going to be looking closely at your findings, then I can FINALLY buy the tires and get this thing done..

Thanks,
Emee

Emee,

I put the wheels on a FJ60Cam's truck last night and he is running 1.5 spacers and they are going to be perfect. I got my tires yesterday so I will get them mounted. I am going to run a Cooper STT 285/75/16 so I will let you know. I am also going the AIRSOFT BB's as balancing for the tires.

I am picking up a new 60 on Sunday and the deal was made for the owner to keep the current wheels so I am going in my old 62 (wife's now) with the 4 wheels to pick up a 60.

I will post up picks of it.

-Bomar

 

[weak-link]

Wow, ntsqd, you are full of opinions. I am certain that you have more experience with spacers than anyone on this forum - especially since you have made it clear that you would never use them. And, since you have made clear that you don't think people value your experience and education enough to value your opinion - I would have to point out that the exact opposite is true.

You are not listening or considering anyone else's opinion, though they may be steeped in experience and education.

Take me for example, 20,000 miles nearly the same setup as the original inquiry - spacers purchased from All Pro, absolutely no issues at all. Oh yeah, I may be slightly qualified to have an opinion having owned and wheeled 70 different rigs of all makes - And, I have two engineering degrees, one from MIT.

So, step back, keep your opinions in check. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but don't get pissed off when everyone doesn't share it.

The only word of caution about spacers is that they are a little more work. I am not a torque and forget type of mechanic. I check wheel torque with a torque wrench with each oil change, and 100 miles after initial toque. Without spacers this is a 5 minute job. With spacers it means that I have to remove the wheels check the spacer torque and then re-install and torque the wheel. 100 miles later I check the wheel lugs again. When I first installed the spacers, I checked the spacer torque at 0, 100 and 1000 miles. Never had a loose lug, but the piece of mind was worth the effort.

Regards,
Dan

now that's entertainment , thank you dshock.

 

[rover67]

I use spacers on my truck and have used them on race cars that were serving daily driver duties as well, no problems.

 

[boots4]

The only word of caution about spacers is that they are a little more work. I am not a torque and forget type of mechanic. I check wheel torque with a torque wrench with each oil change, and 100 miles after initial toque. Without spacers this is a 5 minute job. With spacers it means that I have to remove the wheels check the spacer torque and then re-install and torque the wheel. 100 miles later I check the wheel lugs again. When I first installed the spacers, I checked the spacer torque at 0, 100 and 1000 miles. Never had a loose lug, but the piece of mind was worth the effort.

Regards,
Dan

I echo the same and have had no problems with mine plus I DD my rig. I've rechecked my spacers too and never had a loose nut but I do my maintenance. Spacers are not unsafe, it's the driver/owner and in that case a stock setup is going to kill that bus full of kids because anything can wear out or break on our 20+ yr old rigs if we're not watching and maintaining it. If you don't have to use spacer, great. But if you do, do the maintenance and it's just fine and safe.

 

[ntsqd]

First a little story. I worked on the HPV project in college. A 4.0 GPA ME designed the seat as his senior project. Most all of the rest of us knew it was going to fail and where the failure would happen just by looking at it. After the very early failure of the seat frame (one ride), which he got an 'A' on the design and analysis of, an Industrial Technology student redesigned it to have metal geometry where it so obviously needed to have it and that seat worked to the end of that frame's competitiveness.
So, while I know absolutely nothing about you or how good of an Engineer you are, I place little value in degrees or where they came from.

Second, I don't mind conflicting opinions, but when they appear to take my concerns and toss them out the window it rather upsets me. That IS the impression that I've gotten. The thing that I think I've failed to get across is that it doesn't matter how many are on the road, it's the one that fails that is the problem. The more miles that they have on them, due to aluminum's Fatigue Life Limit, the more I'm concerned. I don't define success of something like this in thousands of miles, but in hundreds of thousands of miles PER unit.

I remain convinced that with a 'normal' back-spaced wheel that these spacers are an exceptionally bad idea for use on public highways. With a wheel that has backspacing which, combined with the spacer's offset, results in a nearly stock scrub radius I don't think that they're a great idea, but are probably workable so long as the fatigue life issue & regular inspection of nut torque is kept in mind.

With this, I am done with this thread.

 

[NocalFJ60]

This thread makes me think of what a former coworker would always say "K.I.S.S". I don't see any need to use spacers with all the wheels available. Think it funny how some people find a good deal on wheels that need spacers and then pay for spacers when they could of just paid the same upfront for wheels that fit.

 

[coolotisdog]

So I have 33 x 12.5 x 15 mud terrains on a 10" wide wheel with 2.5 offsets. I then have 2" spacers all around. My tires stick out of the wheel wells, but I liked the look so stuck with them. I haven't had any problems with bearings or anything, but granted I replaced the bearings, knuckle bearings, and all the seals, and put new hubs on it when I first got my 60. I do get rubbing on the front tires though if I am off road sometimes, so I might just pull the spacers off the front or put half inch spacers to solve that problem. Who knows.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

So I have 33 x 12.5 x 15 mud terrains on a 10" wide wheel with 2.5 offsets. I then have 2" spacers all around. My tires stick out of the wheel wells, but I liked the look so stuck with them. I haven't had any problems with bearings or anything, but granted I replaced the bearings, knuckle bearings, and all the seals, and put new hubs on it when I first got my 60. I do get rubbing on the front tires though if I am off road sometimes, so I might just pull the spacers off the front or put half inch spacers to solve that problem. Who knows.

You have 2" spacers on 10" wide wheels with a 2.5" backspacing?? Wow, your tire must stick out like a sore thumb....

 

[IndianDoc]

I have ran spacers on many different types of cars for many years. I am fine with it.

I wanted a 8 inch wheel not 7.

If they are so great for the tire then why doesn't the tire companies suggest that size?

Only option in 15 for a 33x10.5 is BFG and I didn't want BFG. 16 inch a lot more options.

No option for a black painted steel wheel in a 16x8 with 3.5 or 3.75.

I will disagree: there are black steel rims made by Marsh Racing in 15, 16, 17, 18, and 20 inch size with what ever backspacing you specify. You can also specify the width 8, 9, 10 or more. Bit pricy but not any more than if you buy 4 or 5 inch back space rims and buy spacers to bring them down to the 3 or 3.5 BS you want. I have a set of 18inch rockcrawler style(non beadlock and beadlock available) black steelies with 2.75 Backspacing on order, I have used there rims on both Cruisers and stock cars in the past with little or no problem. Well: did bend a pair on a stock car that went off the track into a concrete wall, but that was the idiot behind the wheel not the road wheels fault.