Another Victron to Ecoflow thread (1 Viewer)

[MCtree]

I know that there are a couple of other Victron/Ecoflow threads out there, but I didn't want to hijack those since my questions are slightly different.
(Though there is good information on some of them like here: Victron DC 12v to 30v | Fast charging to Ecoflow Delta - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/victron-dc-12v-to-30v-fast-charging-to-ecoflow-delta.1329364/)



1. When I turn on the system to charge my ecoflow, the Vicron Orion Smart TR 12/24 - 15 will output at my desired 28V. This pushes around 370watts into my Ecoflow Delta2. If I shut the engine on my LC off, the Orion will shut down as desired.
However, when I start the engine back up and the Orion turns back on, it will never output more than 20V and thus my ecoflow is limited to about 280watts input.
Can anybody say if I have a setting wrong on the orion?

 

[spressomon]

W/o more data/info it sounds engine RPM related (alternator output to house battery related) and/or SOC (State of Charge) on one or both batteries (House and Aux batteries). How long was the charge cycle on #1? What was the SOC on both batteries on #2?

 

[MCtree]

RPM? I hadn't thought about that. All my testing is done idling in my driveway. You think I shold test while driving around?

By "state of charge" do you mean voltage? Or is there another way to measure this? I can run some tests to determine the voltage on both batteries.

And FYI if it helps, here is a diagram of my setup:

 

[spressomon]

Generally, with exceptions of course, the higher the relative SOC of a battery (somewhat chemistry dependent) the higher the input current resistance the last 10-20% of full charge. Think of the battery as a tire: To go from flat to 30psi requires little resistance and work on the compressor/pump. The higher the PSI in the tire the higher the resistance to get it to, say, 60psi or whatever.

Alternators have the lowest voltage/current output at/near idle. If you have a multi-meter you will see this at your house battery as you raise the engine RPM.

 

[spressomon]

Also, what are the lengths of your electrical wire/cable between your busbar to Orion and then from the Orion to the Ecoflow?

 

[MCtree]

@FrazzledHunter,
Could you share your settings on your Orion? I'm having a heck of a time to get mine running properly.
See here: Another Victron to Ecoflow thread - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/another-victron-to-ecoflow-thread.1336967/

Also... I'm curious as to what your shut-down parameters are on the Orion. If I select a shutdown voltage, the Orion turns itself off. But then where there is no load, the input voltage creeps up to where the Orion turns itself back on again,

Sure glad to. The quick answer (scenario 1 below) is this:

• Input voltage lock-out:12.5V
• Voltage to resume: 13.2V

TL;DR

However I have 2 scenarios:

1. With the Victron connected to the starter battery what I am trying to do is have the Victron turn off immediately after engine shutoff and resume immediately after engine start. The Victron Values below are for this case.
2. If I’m connecting the Victron the 2nd battery to intentionally drain it then the Victron’s values are different and vary with the battery and the DC charger’s ability to recharge it.
   1. In this case for my AGM battery I set the lock-out to 10.5V and the resume to be 12.0V

I don't know if the values apply to every LC but I think the approach applies universally which is to establish voltage floor, ceiling and nominal values. First thing you need to do is measure what you're LC is doing. It will vary by temperature and how long it's sat without running.

• Temp: 65F
• Floor voltage - the battery voltage after the LC sits a day or two
  • 12.25V
  • This will be lower in winter and the longer it sits
  • I have started the LC at 11.5V; do not know the V at which LC will not start.
• Ceiling cold start voltage
  • 14V
  • This will be higher in winter
  • I have observed it as high as 14.5V; do not know if it ever gets higher.
• Nominal warmed up voltage
  • This is the value to which you need to pay careful attention
  • 13.6V
  • I have observed this NOT to change much with temperature

My current Victron settings at cold start:

• Mode: Power Supply
• Input Voltage: 14.0V
• Output Voltage: 24.0V
  • This was no load; it will drop significantly under full load to approx. 19V but will maintain power in watts to approx.. 380W
• Input voltage lock-out:12.5V
• Voltage to resume: 13.2V

 

[MCtree]

Also, what are the lengths of your electrical wire/cable between your busbar to Orion and then from the Orion to the Ecoflow?

Right now the wires from the busbar to the orion are 4ft. (1ft of 4awg and 3ft of 6awg)
And then the wires from the Orion to the ecoflow are another 4ft or so.
I will be cutting them shorter in my final set-up but I wanted to leave some length to play with while I am testing it. You think those lengths need to be adjusted now?

 

[MCtree]

Sure glad to. The quick answer (scenario 1 below) is this:

• Input voltage lock-out:12.5V
• Voltage to resume: 13.2V

TL;DR

However I have 2 scenarios:

1. With the Victron connected to the starter battery what I am trying to do is have the Victron turn off immediately after engine shutoff and resume immediately after engine start. The Victron Values below are for this case.
2. If I’m connecting the Victron the 2nd battery to intentionally drain it then the Victron’s values are different and vary with the battery and the DC charger’s ability to recharge it.
   1. In this case for my AGM battery I set the lock-out to 10.5V and the resume to be 12.0V

I don't know if the values apply to every LC but I think the approach applies universally which is to establish voltage floor, ceiling and nominal values. First thing you need to do is measure what you're LC is doing. It will vary by temperature and how long it's sat without running.

• Temp: 65F
• Floor voltage - the battery voltage after the LC sits a day or two
  • 12.25V
  • This will be lower in winter and the longer it sits
  • I have started the LC at 11.5V; do not know the V at which LC will not start.
• Ceiling cold start voltage
  • 14V
  • This will be higher in winter
  • I have observed it as high as 14.5V; do not know if it ever gets higher.
• Nominal warmed up voltage
  • This is the value to which you need to pay careful attention
  • 13.6V
  • I have observed this NOT to change much with temperature

My current Victron settings at cold start:

• Mode: Power Supply
• Input Voltage: 14.0V
• Output Voltage: 24.0V
  • This was no load; it will drop significantly under full load to approx. 19V but will maintain power in watts to approx.. 380W
• Input voltage lock-out:12.5V
• Voltage to resume: 13.2V
  

@FrazzledHunter,
I cut and pasted your response to this thread. I hope that's okay. I realized I was hijacking that other thread (again).

But I'll take those measurements like you suggest. Are you taking those measurements at the battery or back at the Vicrton Orion 12/24 -15?
And I take it they are all taken with no load on the system (your Goal zero not plugged in)?

Finally, are you sure on the 380W at 19V? I thought our Orions are maxed at 15A while you are getting 20A if 380W and 19V.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

@FrazzledHunter,
I cut and pasted your response to this thread. I hope that's okay. I realized I was hijacking that other thread (again).

But I'll take those measurements like you suggest. Are you taking those measurements at the battery or back at the Vicrton Orion 12/24 -15?
And I take it they are all taken with no load on the system (your Goal zero not plugged in)?

Finally, are you sure on the 380W at 19V? I thought our Orions are maxed at 15A while you are getting 20A if 380W and 19V.

One thing you have to bear in mind when charging these things via PV inputs is that you're screwing with their minds. You're connecting to a solar controller (an MPPT solar controller in my case) and it tries to mess with the voltage to get optimum power. A solar panel will respond in the way it expects. But the Victron in power supply mode isn't a solar panel and doesn't act like one. That doesn't mean you can't pull the trick of attaching a power supply. What the solar controller will do is to try and get the power supply to supply the optimum current by periodically screwing with the voltage. The Victron will hold steadfast to it's maximum power output and the solar controller should be fine with that even as it tries to trick the Victron into supplying more current, which it won't.

I suspect your issues with the Victron's power are one or all of 3 things:

1. Heat. The Victron will de-rate as it gets hot. I see from your drawing you have a blower as I do which makes a dramatic difference.
2. Your battery. These things will draw less power as they get to full charge. Mine does, I suspect yours does too.
3. The solar controller. It may be changing the voltage and therefore the current reflected in watts to test what it thinks are solar panels.

• No problem on the cut & paste.
• For the response I gave the floor and ceiling measurements were taken at the input of the Victron. The run was very short for this measurement as the Victron was connected directly to my SB-50 at the driver's side footwell and did not run through an extension cord running to the rear cargo area. I have observed the values to be identical in this case. I usually take my measurements at the Victron itself for how I plan to use it i.e. at the end of any extension cord.
  • The values I gave for the Victron are long standing values I have used on many trips both in summer and winter.
• There was no load on the system as I mentioned in my post. I have never observed 24V at the Victron under load; it was always <24V.
• Below are actual measured values. I was a bit off on the 19V but I have seen it at 19V.

EDIT: I just noticed that the values for the Victron on/off voltages are different between my post and on the drawing. The values in my post are what's there TODAY. However, both sets have worked fine.

 

[e9999]

are you using the PV input to the Ecoflow? I thought there was also a direct DC input on those things that allow for higher power in than with the PV inputs, something like up to 1000W or so. (Although the Orion would be the limiting factor in both cases, I assume). If you use the DC input there would be no controller-related issue (not that I think it matters much), so one less unknown.
I'm also under the impression that the Orions can uprate at lower temperature and get out more than their nominal rating.
My experience has been that the alternator voltage (on the 100) does not change much with rpms (well, outside of 0 rpm of course ). YMMV.

 

[MCtree]

are you using the PV input to the Ecoflow? I thought there was also a direct DC input on those things that allow for higher power in than with the PV inputs, something like up to 1000W or so. (Although the Orion would be the limiting factor in both cases, I assume). If you use the DC input there would be no controller-related issue (not that I think it matters much), so one less unknown.
I'm also under the impression that the Orions can uprate at lower temperature and get out more than their nominal rating.
My experience has been that the alternator voltage (on the 100) does not change much with rpms (well, outside of 0 rpm of course ). YMMV.

“PV input?”
What input is that?

I’m using the input that is for either the car DC or the solar panels.
Using this wire:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0CNJQZ65W?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Basically if one used XT60i, the ecoflow thinks one is using solar panels and allows for higher (up to 15A) input.

 

[e9999]

PV as in Photovoltaic. I just looked up the specs online for the Delta 2, it seems like they say it can do either PV charging at 500W or "DC" charging at 1100W (but didn't say what voltage and current). [PV is DC too, of course, so a bit of a misnomer.] It looks like you can charge at double the rate if not in PV mode, presumably bypassing the MPPT controller somehow. Maybe a setting someplace? Not that it matters much here if your Orion can only do around 400W, but maybe it'd avoid possible issues with the MPPT.
Or maybe I misunderstood all that...

 

[FrazzledHunter]

@e9999 I assumed a PV input was being used for charging. I even looked at the ecoflow website at his unit and didn't see a direct dc input but I could have missed it.

 

[MCtree]

My experience has been that the alternator voltage (on the 100) does not change much with rpms (well, outside of 0 rpm of course ). YMMV.

Agreed. I tested this yesterday. Increasing the RMP only increased the voltage at the main battery by 0.1 to 0.2V.
At the Orion back in my cargo area, higher RPM’s had no effect on the voltage. This may be due to the cargo area being on the back side of my REDARC BCDC.

 

[MCtree]

@e9999 I assumed a PV input was being used for charging. I even looked at the ecoflow website at his unit and didn't see a direct dc input but I could have missed it.

Correct. I’m using the PV input. It’s the same input as the car DC. The wire that the ecoflow came with to charge from a car is XT60.
The input from solar uses the same port, but that wire is XT60i.
So I’m using XT60i from the alternator to fool the Ecoflow into thinking it’s getting PV input.

Input is limited to 100watts with the XT60.
With the XT60i I am able to get 400w as 28V.

My problem is that whenever I turn off the engine, the Orion shuts down as it should.
The problem is that, after start up, the voltage is stuck at 20V and around 250watts.

So I’m trying to figure out why shutting it down and then starting back up throttles the output like this.

I’ll try your settings shortly, Frazzled.
I’ve been trying to use charging mode rather than power mode like you do. I like the delayed start up offered in charging mode. But maybe I’ll have to give that up.

 

[menancyandsam]

Did you purchase the XT60i separately. The one that comes with the EcoFlow for some reason is limited.
See this video around 2:54 mark.

 

[e9999]

you had me look at the manual too now. Saw no mention there of the "DC charging 1100W" that I saw on their online specs. So maybe that was a mistake, unless that means that the DC input port can handle 1100W somehow. But they also say that the MPPT controller can only handle 15A / 500W so I would not exceed that unless there is an explicit way to bypass the MPPT controller (but I saw no mention there of how to do that either). But anyway, not relevant to your main question about the Orion behavior.

"XT60" refers to the connector itself AFAIK -not the cable- and should be able to handle 60A continuous and likely well over 24V, so much more power than we are talking about here. But of course the cable they use with it in or out can be the limiting factor.

Is it possible that the Ecoflow is somehow throttling the Orion output for some sort of protection after it sees a decrease in voltage? Or maybe the MPPT is not liking that?
What happens to the Orion output after shutdown and restart if it is not connected to the Ecoflow?

 

[MCtree]

Did you purchase the XT60i separately. The one that comes with the EcoFlow for some reason is limited.
See this video around 2:54 mark.

Yes. I did buy a new one.
Also, Im not sure anymore, but I don’t think an XT60i comes with the ecoflow.

But I first purchased the solar power connection that Tinkerer recommended - I was going to modify it like he did but then saw the connector on Amazon that I linked above. It’s a big bigger gauge of wire than the solar one from Ecoflow pso I went with that instead.
I think that I am getting above 100w (8A) tells me that the ecoflow is, indeed, fooled into thinking it’s getting solar.

 

[MCtree]

you had me look at the manual too now. Saw no mention there of the "DC charging 1100W" that I saw on their online specs. So maybe that was a mistake, unless that means that the DC input port can handle 1100W somehow. But they also say that the MPPT controller can only handle 15A / 500W so I would not exceed that unless there is an explicit way to bypass the MPPT controller (but I saw no mention there of how to do that either). But anyway, not relevant to your main question about the Orion behavior.

"XT60" refers to the connector itself AFAIK -not the cable- and should be able to handle 60A continuous and likely well over 24V, so much more power than we are talking about here. But of course the cable they use with it in or out can be the limiting factor.

Is it possible that the Ecoflow is somehow throttling the Orion output for some sort of protection after it sees a decrease in voltage? Or maybe the MPPT is not liking that?
What happens to the Orion output after shutdown and restart if it is not connected to the Ecoflow?

Yeah. Agreed. I think that 1100W DC is an error. I believe it can charge the ecoflow at 1100W AC. But DC is limited to 15A/500W.

And yeah, I think the MPPT is the culprit. I’ll try different settings to see if I can fool it further.

 

[MCtree]

Though I did just find this:

ECOHOLICS - EcoFlow Leaks 800w Alternator Charger

Seems like Ecoflow has seen the need for faster charging from an alternator and is coming out with their own device that can handle 800W.
That will be nice if it/ once it gets released.
Perhaps it will simplify things for me.

Also, I notice that Victron seems to be releasing a newer model of DC DC chargers. Ones that are much more efficient and thus much cooler. Hopefully that comes out soon in the voltages we need.