Alignment Issue/Tire Wear?

[Pskhaat]

he will gross much less than half of that $80/hr, because he will usually log less than 40 flat rate hours per 40 hour week - despite working 40 or more actual hours.

Assuming on average a 2000 hour year, that's still like $80k. That's not super-big $, but that sure as hell ain't that bad a living! Maybe I'm dated in thinking that's a decent wage?

required huge personal monetary outlay for personal tools

With that I totally agree. Do all mechanics even in high-end stealerships bring their own tools?

 

[Tinkerer]

Assuming on average a 2000 hour year, that's still like $80k. That's not super-big $, but that sure as hell ain't that bad a living! Maybe I'm dated in thinking that's a decent wage?




With that I totally agree. Do all mechanics even in high-end stealerships bring their own tools?

I love it: "...stealerships..." ! Drifting..drifting...drifting...(farther from alignment per se...)

On the pay issue: "much less than half" of $80/hr shop rate does not mean $40/hr average per 40 hr week., or $80k/yr. (That would be about half, eh?)

Try: $30 of the $80/hr, times 25 flat rate hours paid over the course of a 50 hour work week. That equates to about $15/hr average pay rate. That would be about $30k/year based on a 40 hour work week, except for the large percentage that must go into personal tools required to do the work. The true yearly pay is therefore even less than $30k, maybe around $25k before taxes. For comparison, that's about what the guy pushing carts at Sam's Club makes.

The number of flat rate hours paid per week depends not only on the mechanics skill/energy, but also on the types of jobs doled out to the mechanic by the stealership Service Dept., and on the flat rate system vagaries as well. Big jobs like rebuilding a tranny pay big flat rate hours that are probably nearly equal to the actual hours, but many sorts of smallish jobs pay miniscule flat rate hours - yet entail much unpaid work.

Relevant to the problem of getting a good alignment (this thread topic), the system promotes shoddy workmanship by design, since it (a) drives mechanics to crank out work in a frenzy of haste in order to make more flat rate pay ("haste makes waste", remember?), and (b) the relatively low average net pay per year fails to attract the most talented folks to the profession (or causes them to leave when they get the rude awakening on payday, as happened with me).

And yes - a mechanic must buy his own tools, and as ya know, they're dang expensive. I know a stealership mechanic with over $150k invested in tools, over about 20 years.

Have we beat this horse to death yet?

 

[jp213a]

Well guys, I decided to make a Toe adjustment on the LC and apparently it helped. It is not completely perfect but it is better than it was. I need to make a few more adjustments to re-align the steering wheel and I should be good. I am still going to take it to an alignment shop to verify everything is okay. I do have somewhat of a question though. I adjusted the passenger side Toe adjustment and noticed it was affecting the driver side as well. What's up with that? I guess I do not understand or know how the Rack and Pinion is constructed internally. What you think?

The steering wheel will stay centered if you make equal adjustments to the tie rod ends on the passenger and driver's side. Other than throwing the steering wheel off center, making the adjustment all on one side is OK.

What has the toe-in / toe-out measurement before you made the adjustment? I haven't looked up the LC spec but 1/8" (.125") of toe-in is typical. Did you measure between the inside of the tires with a dial indicator on the end of a rod or conduit or did you use a stiff tape measure (25 footer) or some other method?

 

[2000TLC]

Damn, I am definitely not an expert at doing alignments. The method I used to do the rough toe adjustment was with the old school method of using a tape measure. I mesasured from the frame to the outer edge of the tire and verified the measurements for both sides. Everything measured out fine but of course when I took it in to the other Toyota dealership to have the alignment verified, the tech pretty much laughed and said the guy who did the alignment was an idiot. Anyway, he realigned it and I had him throw my spare that has a new tire on the front right. The LC seems to be riding a little better but it is still there. The alignment guy said I should just live with it since the alignment numbers are exactly what spec suggests. My argument was that since my LC still has the Toyota Certified Warranty til September of this year, that I did not want a hidden underlying problem to arise once the warranty ends and that I wanted to get the issue fixed before something like that would happen. I guess I have enough documentation with Toyota to back up my complaint if that hidden problem does surfaces in the future. Then hopefully Toyota will cover any future repairs.

 

[Tinkerer]

Damn, I am definitely not an expert at doing alignments. The method I used to do the rough toe adjustment was with the old school method of using a tape measure. I mesasured from the frame to the outer edge of the tire and verified the measurements for both sides. Everything measured out fine but of course when I took it in to the other Toyota dealership to have the alignment verified, the tech pretty much laughed and said the guy who did the alignment was an idiot. Anyway, he realigned it and I had him throw my spare that has a new tire on the front right. The LC seems to be riding a little better but it is still there. The alignment guy said I should just live with it since the alignment numbers are exactly what spec suggests. My argument was that since my LC still has the Toyota Certified Warranty til September of this year, that I did not want a hidden underlying problem to arise once the warranty ends and that I wanted to get the issue fixed before something like that would happen. I guess I have enough documentation with Toyota to back up my complaint if that hidden problem does surfaces in the future. Then hopefully Toyota will cover any future repairs.

Ya, don't try to set the toe by measuring from the frame. Must be measured between the tires.

Did the Tech give you his alignment measurements?

It is quite possible to align a vehicle well within specs, yet still produce a crappy alignment that pulls to one side.

Yet that same vehicle, aligned correctly within specs but to different settings, will not pull.

So simply saying "aligned within specs" doesn't really say anything good or bad about the alignment, except perhaps that you may be talking to a Tech who doesn't want to put in the extra effort to dial it in properly. (Or maybe doesn't know how...)

I once saw opportunity in doing alignments, because of this problem in getting a good alignment (and the related BS that lesser mechanics spout in defending their poor alignments). But, see earlier posts about the relatively low pay in the service industry: Dialing in an alignment can take several iterations of adjustment & road test, and a perfectionist like me will not call it done until its done - but this yields VERY low hourly pay.

Have fun.

 

[2000TLC]

Tink, do you think you can do my Alignment? I don't think I am going to enjoy paying everyone and their mom's to align my LC until it is done right. I have only payed to date about $110.00 for alignments and not wanting to pay more. I guess I will keep hunting for a good tech.

 

[Tinkerer]

Tink, do you think you can do my Alignment? I don't think I am going to enjoy paying everyone and their mom's to align my LC until it is done right. I have only payed to date about $110.00 for alignments and not wanting to pay more. I guess I will keep hunting for a good tech.

Yeah, you just need to find a good alignment shop where you live.

(I don't do it for pay anymore, and you live too far from me anyway. )

Good luck.

 

[donco]

Alignment

Take it to Chet's on Menaul. They love a challenge and will sort it out.

 

[Pskhaat]

Yeah, horse is well dead, but honestly didn't know if all mechanics were basically req'd to supply their own tools.

 

[calamaridog]

Like this

 

[NMuzj100]

2000TLC have you had the tires balanced on a road force machine like the Hunter GSP9700? Tires can have internal flaws (Tinkerer's "weirdness" ) that can cause alignment problems and cannot be detected by inspection or "normal" balancing.

It is easy to replace tons of components and spend money on a alignment problem because the tires are throwing everything out of whack. Several folks on this board have had great luck with the Hunter machine.

The Hunter site shows Chet's to have a Hunter machine so that looks like a logical next step to me.

 

[Tinkerer]

2000TLC have you had the tires balanced on a road force machine like the Hunter GSP9700? Tires can have internal flaws (Tinkerer's "weirdness" ) that can cause alignment problems and cannot be detected by inspection or "normal" balancing.

It is easy to replace tons of components and spend money on a alignment problem because the tires are throwing everything out of whack. Several folks on this board have had great luck with the Hunter machine.

The Hunter site shows Chet's to have a Hunter machine so that looks like a logical next step to me.

The Hunter GSP9700 has the ability to reduce tire vibration, even better than ordinary balancing alone.

Not sure how much it would illuminate tire problems that contribute to alignment pulling etc.

A couple of caveats about the GSP9700, in my experience:

1. Most Technicians do not know how to use it properly.

2. Many of the machines in service are in need of calibration and/or repair, at this stage of their service life.

So, while the GSP9700 can indeed produce a superior result in reducing tire vibration, in many cases it will not because the Tech doesn't use it correctly and/or the Hunter itself is not 100% in correct condition & calibration.

The times I've gotten good results from a GSP9700, were the times I talked my way into working directly with the Tech on the job, and helped him figure out how to use it.

(In a typical general repair shop like a stealership, the lowest paid & least experienced Techs are doing things like...tire balancing. You get what you pay for.)

But I notice that it is getting increasingly difficult to persuade a shop to let me into the repair area, nowadays. Not a sure thing.

Let us know how things turn out if you decide to try the GSP9700.

 

[CrusrDug]

This isn't the best alignment thread to bring back to life (unless we want to talk about wages ), but I do have a question that I can't find an answer to.

Can it still be alignment if a vehicle pulls under power and tracks straight while not under power??

I only notice this at highway speed. It pulls right, but if I let off the gas it goes away. If I stomp on the gas it goes crazy right. Seems like if it were out of alignment I would feel it all of the time regardless of the gas pedal.

 

[CrusrDug]

Bump.