Alignment Issue/Tire Wear?

[2000TLC]

I got a good one for you guys. Recently (within the last 6 months) I had started noticing uneven wear and saw tooth pattern on outer edge of my front passenger tire and also a pull to the right while driving. Fearing an alignment issue, I took it to the dealership and had the alignment checked. They came back and said the alignment was slightly off which was corrected by them. They said I was still going to have a slight pull due to the uneven tire wear and that the tires needed to be rotated and balanced. So I took the car to a local tire shop and had the tires rotated and balanced. Afterward I still had the same freaking pull to the right. So I took the LC back to the dealership a few weeks later and said the pull still existed. Again, the tech put the LC back on the rack and verified that the alignment was still good and the tech came back and said the tires needed to be rotated. Laughingly, I told him I had already done so. He insisted that the front passenger tire was bad. So, if what he was saying was true, I should be able to swap the front tires from left to right and right to left and the vehicle should then pull to the left due to the supposed bad tire, right? Wrong, I did that and the damn thing is still pulling to the right. I again took it back and insisted there is something else going on and they again checked the alignment and verified all steering components for any damage with no findings. This time the tech came back and said he had to adjust the alignment a little bit but it should be somewhat better and also said there is still a slight pull. Again, he said, the tires are bad. Holy S#@*, how likely is it that all the tires are going bad once they get mounted on the front passenger side? I doubt very likely at all. I told the tech that I was going to replace the tires and if the pull still existed that I was going to come back and see him again. Only the next time I might be a little pissed and probably try and make them pay for the tires. So, I guess I am wanting to know if these guys can not fix this problem, at what point will this vehicle fall into the lemon law? I don't want to give up my LC due to being a lemon, I just want it fixed. Funny thing is, it still has the Toyota Certified Warranty still in affect. Would contacting Toyota Customer Service do me any good? What are your guys thoughts on this issue?

 

[Tinkerer]

You did not say what year & mileage LC.

Anyway, on the alignment / pull / tires issue:

The alignment CAN be adjusted to make the vehicle track straight and hold the crown of the road correctly, without pulling to either side, IF:

- No looseness or play in suspension/steering components.
- No bent or otherwise damaged suspension/steering components, frame, axle, etc.
- No goofy problems with power steering system
- No goofy problems with front drive system (as in 4WD - FR)
- No brake problems
- No bearing problems
- No tire weirdness *

Notice that last one. I say "weirdness" because tires can contribute to pull to one side even if they appear fine. (Internal belts etc. conditions, etc.)

Getting a proper alignment done can take multiple tries, even if everything is in good condition. It is something of an art, and many otherwise good mechanics don't do a good job at alignments. Human nature being what it is, they frequently blame things other than their own lack of skill, when the results are poor.

My LX had a problem with pulling to the right when new. It took several tries to get it corrected. I was finally able to get this done, by persuading the dealer mechanic to use my suggested caster & camber settings. (RH caster had to be set a little more positive than specs, and he was hesitant to do this...)

I'd recommend that since the tires have a known wear problem and are now being blamed (and since they may indeed be a factor even if they look OK), go ahead and replace them. With good stuff - not cheap stuff. The better tires are going to cause fewer pulling problems.

Then, IMMEDIATELY or asap, get the vehicle back to the alignment rack. Do not drive it between getting new tires and getting alignment, except to drive from tire shop to home, then home to dealer (or less).

(Unless of course the problem is apparently solved by new tires and you are happy with things.

With new tires, vehicle in good condition, and a decent mechanic, you should be able to fix the pulling problems.

 

[2000TLC]

Sorry, the LC is a 2000 with about 86k.

I agree with everything you are saying in your reply, but all the possible issues you suggested, that could cause a pull, is more than likely being over looked by the tech assuming it is just tires instead of hunting for another underlying issue. When I took the vehicle in the first time I had mentioned to them that during a brake pad change on the frontend, I noticed one of the four brake pads was wearing excessively faster than the others. They just shrugged me off and said there is no problem with the brakes that could cause a pull to the right. In which I disagreed saying a brake caliper could possibly be sticking. So, what it is looking like to me is they want me to change the tires to see if the problem gets fixed and if it does not fix it, then I just spent money for nothing and they would just say, "Sorry". The tires that are on the vehicle still have over half of their life left which makes me think the bad tire diagnosis is incorrect. It is extremely odd to me that all the tires would go bad all at once and no matter what corner of the vehicle you put the tires, it still pulls to the right. I am going to try putting my brand new spare on the front passenger side and see what affect it has on the vehicle and if it still pulls right then I am going to throw the bad tire diagnosis out the window. I will keep you informed. Thanks

 

[calamaridog]

Have you considered going to another shop or is Toyota doing the follow up for free?

 

[Pskhaat]

Try another shop. Tell the new shop/dealership (without naming them) that you are having problems with said dealership and would very much appreciate any attention they could lend to this matter.

Are you at American Toyota?

 

[Jim_Chow]

I had a similar issue w/ a honda that was in an accident. Before and after the accident, the alignment was right on, as the accident didn't involve any suspension/steering/frame damage. Anyways, the honda repair shop checked the alignment. When I got the car back, it was pulling to one side. Tires are original and vehicle only had 25K mi on it. The tech road w/ me in the car and confirmed it was pulling, had it realigned and test drove it so it wasn't. There's some amount of error permissible so you can, for example, move the left front caster back and right front caster up so everything is still in spec yet the vehicle tracks straight. I bet the tech blindly zeroed the camber/caster. If your tires are indeed worn, I'd test drive it after the alignment with new tires/spare, or use the tires that were on the rear. Some dealers also rotate only front-to-rear. Tire wear up front isn't necessarily equal on both sides, so IMHO, it's best to cross rotate to average out wear if you have uni-directional tread patterns.

 

[Tinkerer]

Sorry, the LC is a 2000 with about 86k.

I agree with everything you are saying in your reply, but all the possible issues you suggested, that could cause a pull, is more than likely being over looked by the tech assuming it is just tires instead of hunting for another underlying issue. <snip>

Note that I said, "...a decent mechanic...".

Unfortunately, there are probably more incompetent alignment mechanics than good ones. (This applies to most any endeavor requiring skill - and art - achieved with aptitude, training, & experience, no?)

Remember too: The typical shop labor rate & pay system discourages good alignments: An alignment may entail a low fixed rate charge, but it is a rare alignment that dials in the first try - most take at least one, and sometimes multiple, road tests & fine-readjustments, to get it just right. But the mechanic will not be paid for his extra work, beyond the low fixed rate that assumes a single, quick, alignment job with no road test & fine tuning iterations. So most mechanics will not do the extra unpaid effort - they have to make a certain amount per month to pay their bills too, ya know. In a flat-rate shop like a dealer service bay, it's all about getting paid for the most flat rate hours per day.

All of this works against getting a good alignment.

And the first thing in doing an alignment, before turning the first wrench to adjust the front end, is a thorough check of all the underlying systems (see my earlier post). A top-notch mechanic will do all these things, and if everything is right, will proceed to do a good alignment. Otherwise, he will find what is wrong and advise.

Good luck. It may take a few visits to the dealer or other shop. Don't accept the vehicle pulling to one side - it does not have to be so.

 

[2000TLC]

Yeah Cala and 3FJ, I am going to try the other dealer in town which is going to cost me another $50 bucks for an alignment. Yes, I am getting the work done at American. Usually those guys do great work for me plus Dan is there, I just don't agree with or like most of the service advisors there too much. The service advisors like to give their two cents when I doubt very seriously that they know what they are talking about, most of the time. I agree with Tink that the alignment tech is probably just trying to get me out of his hair because he is losing money on me.

 

[2000TLC]

Some dealers also rotate only front-to-rear. Tire wear up front isn't necessarily equal on both sides, so IMHO, it's best to cross rotate to average out wear if you have uni-directional tread patterns.

Jim, the first rotation that was done after the first alignment was done by a tire shop. So, I am assuming they did the cross up. I have actually done a few rotations myself and have not seen or noticed any difference. If after I go to the other dealer and the next tech does not do anything different or better. I am going to try and roughly verify the camber and toe adjustments myself and maybe make a few adjustments to try and cure the problem.

 

[jp213a]

I am going to try and roughly verify the camber and toe adjustments myself and maybe make a few adjustments to try and cure the problem.

From my experience, toe-in/toe-out is easy to check and adjust yourself but camber is very dificult.

 

[hoser]

The camber and caster are adjusted at the same time. Looks tricky to me.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=736713&postcount=7

 

[LXPearl]

Many years ago I had a 65 Mustang with mag wheels and could never get a reasonable alignment until one tech told me to take it to a dedicated alignment shop where he took his cars. What a difference! The Mustang tracked properly and rode smoothly and the tires wore evenly. I always took my vehicles there until I moved out of state, but even then I took them to dedicated alignment shops. After moving to Arkansas, I found a good alignment person at a dealership. True alignment technicians understand setting the vehicle for how you drive and the type of roads you travel. For mostly highway driving, I can get 20-30K miles (or more) on the tires before rotation is needed when the alignment is right. I keep a regular watch on the pressure and wear of the tires.

When you get an alignment, you should be able to return it as needed within 30 days to get the alignment right. The first good alignment may take some time, after that the adjustments tend to be minor.

 

[Tinkerer]

The camber and caster are adjusted at the same time. Looks tricky to me.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=736713&postcount=7

As noted, it is something of an art. Lots of mechanics don't like it because it is "finicky" (to quote one) and takes multiple adjustments & road tests to dial it in just-so. You can't just set it to the midpoint of the OE specs and consider it done, without road testing & putting it back on the rack for fine-tuning. You can't just set a vehicle to the settings you remember from the last identical make/model and call it done, either, due to normal vehicle build variations, etc. You may get the alignment dialed in perfectly, only to find that the steering wheel is off-center a wee bit, requiring a toe-in tweak. Even the part of the country where the vehicle is mainly driven affects things, because different locally-prevailing road designs necessitate different alignment adjustments to "hold the crown of the road" more or less, and different prevailing road surface materials affect the tires behavior which affects the suspension & steering dynamics also. If you align a vehicle to behave nicely on a flat OEM concrete test pad, by setting caster & camber to dead-nominal, it will probably pull to the right on crowned roads. But you CAN align it to hold the road crown AND track straight on a flat pad. Etc, etc.

And all this doesn't even begin to account for tire "weirdness", that can affect results even if tires appear OK.

Finicky.

One reason the Mfg ships vehicles that are not dialed in already is the above stuff. Another may be that their test track or test pad may be flat, not crowned, so when they check vehicles they seem fine on that pad. Another is that they don't have time to fine-tune alignments anyway, in the production build process. Dealer PDI (that the dealer charges you $300 for) may be supposed to correct this at the dealer, but I've never seen a dealer PDI that does anything at all, let alone fine-tuning alignment. (And that may be a good thing, considering the caliber of dealer workmanship in most cases.) Of the four new vehicles I've bought in recent years, 2 of them required alignment immediately. (And it took multiple visits to the dealer, with success finally achieved by talking the mechanics into using my recommended settings...)

A shop specializing in alignments may indeed be your best bet. To be sure, the dealer service shops I've experienced generally do work that is as poor or worse than any independent shop. Even Lexus. (The only times I've gotten decent results from ANY shop on work requiring the slightest bit of adjustment skill was when I personally took a hand in directing the work.)

 

[2000TLC]

To be sure, the dealer service shops I've experienced generally do work that is as poor or worse than any independent shop. Even Lexus. (The only times I've gotten decent results from ANY shop on work requiring the slightest bit of adjustment skill was when I personally took a hand in directing the work.)

Don't you guys think this sucks? What Tink is saying is pretty damn accurate. There has been a few occasions in the past at the Lexus dealership and the Toyota dealership when I had to make suggestions or point out problems that not even the dealership techs could find. I definitely don't know everything about cars, but at times I think I know more than some of these manufacturer certified techs. We are paying $80-$100/hr for certified techs who are supposed to know everything about our vehicles. Anyway, I guess I will take your guys advice and find a dedicated alignment shop or will doing that screw with my Toyota Certified warranty?

 

[calamaridog]

I have a shop here in San Diego who can do alignment on anything. They do cars, trucks, motorhomes, race trucks, everything.

They are well known and respected professionals.

Look for someone competent if you aren't satisifed with Toyota.

BTW, how would Toyota know you took it somewhere else? It's not like they will put a Jiffy Lube sticker in your window.

 

[Tinkerer]

Don't you guys think this sucks? What Tink is saying is pretty damn accurate. There has been a few occasions in the past at the Lexus dealership and the Toyota dealership when I had to make suggestions or point out problems that not even the dealership techs could find. I definitely don't know everything about cars, but at times I think I know more than some of these manufacturer certified techs. We are paying $80-$100/hr for certified techs who are supposed to know everything about our vehicles. Anyway, I guess I will take your guys advice and find a dedicated alignment shop or will doing that screw with my Toyota Certified warranty?

Keep in mind that the mechanic only gets a fraction, usually less than half, of the shop labor rate. At most, averaged over the work week, he will gross much less than half of that $80/hr, because he will usually log less than 40 flat rate hours per 40 hour week - despite working 40 or more actual hours.

Bottom line: The average pay for a mechanic, working as an employee, sucks. On top of that, the average shop tries to screw its mechanic employees by underpaying them as much as possible, in my experience.

Combine these facts with the high demands of the job in terms of training, experience, aptitude, physical condition, on-the-job hazards and damaging workplace exposures of various types, plus the required huge personal monetary outlay for personal tools, and it is no wonder that it is difficult to find a top-notch mechanic with long-term experience.

The state of the automotive service industry. Have a nice day.

 

[calamaridog]

The state of the automotive service industry. Have a nice day.

I don't know what to say. My buddy from high school has been a Toyota mechanic since 1992 and he makes a good living. Heck, he was making good money a few years out of high school.

He's proficient at what he does. I've found, you can make a good living at almost anything if you are good at it.

My experience with most shops has been bad. When I find a good shop I go back and recommend them to friends. I value a fair/skilled/honest mechanic more than any other professional.

The automotive service industry is rampant with fraud. This is why it is so important to develop a relationship with a good shop.

I have tried to arm myself with knowledge so I don't get screwed. I try to do enough work myself so I am familiar with the vehicle and able to do emergency/field repairs and diagnostics. This forum is great and there are a ton of people here who know more than I do

 

[Tinkerer]

I don't know what to say. My buddy from high school has been a Toyota mechanic since 1992 and he makes a good living. Heck, he was making good money a few years out of high school.

He's proficient at what he does. I've found, you can make a good living at almost anything if you are good at it.

My experience with most shops has been bad. When I find a good shop I go back and recommend them to friends. I value a fair/skilled/honest mechanic more than any other professional.

The automotive service industry is rampant with fraud. This is why it is so important to develop a relationship with a good shop.

I have tried to arm myself with knowledge so I don't get screwed. I try to do enough work myself so I am familiar with the vehicle and able to do emergency/field repairs and diagnostics. This forum is great and there are a ton of people here who know more than I do

We're drifting farther off-topic, but:

"...a good living..." is relative. Does the Toyota mechanic make enough to buy a new LC? I seriously doubt it - not unless he owns his own shop. If that is so, then he is not just a mechanic - he is a business owner, and will make even more with employees doing the wrench-spinning (buy labor wholesale, repackage and sell at retail).

Take a look at what the typical mechanic drives, wears, and his housing. They do not make much of a living, as far as I see.

(That's why I went back to school, many moons ago...)

I know a guy I used to work with, he is probably making a decent living. But he works around 100 hours a week - 50 or so at the dealer, and another 50 on side jobs at his little shop next to his mobile home. Averaged per hour, he ain't netting much, and 100 hours a week spinning wrenches starts to really hurt as you pass 40. No thanks.

 

[2000TLC]

Well guys, I decided to make a Toe adjustment on the LC and apparently it helped. It is not completely perfect but it is better than it was. I need to make a few more adjustments to re-align the steering wheel and I should be good. I am still going to take it to an alignment shop to verify everything is okay. I do have somewhat of a question though. I adjusted the passenger side Toe adjustment and noticed it was affecting the driver side as well. What's up with that? I guess I do not understand or know how the Rack and Pinion is constructed internally. What you think?

 

[Tinkerer]

Well guys, I decided to make a Toe adjustment on the LC and apparently it helped. It is not completely perfect but it is better than it was. I need to make a few more adjustments to re-align the steering wheel and I should be good. I am still going to take it to an alignment shop to verify everything is okay. I do have somewhat of a question though. I adjusted the passenger side Toe adjustment and noticed it was affecting the driver side as well. What's up with that? I guess I do not understand or know how the Rack and Pinion is constructed internally. What you think?

What method did you use to adjust / measure toe-in?

There is a single effective toe-in amount, that is affected by the LH & RH toe adjustments (at the tie rods).

If you are not sure of how this works, or how to measure it, I'd recommend that you get it done by a professional alignment Tech. Sometimes you can talk one into letting you watch & explaining things.

If you changed toe-in, and the pull problem "improved", you may have actually created another problem - if you have set toe-in to an erroneous setting.