A.I. Myths About 0w20 vs 5w30

[Heritage 2020]

As a mechanical engineer (not a lubrication engineer), I fully concur with Mr. Lake Speed Jr, in that a lot of AI myths, outdated beliefs, and personal anecdotes exist regarding oil.

Unfortunately the only empirical data that exists is that most engine wear occurs on cold engine startup where there is no dispute that 0w flows better than 5w.

From new my 3URFE has received an oil/filter change every 5k miles with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w20.

At 73k miles and counting on 0w20 (plenty of hot weather summer use)—zero oil consumption, no noise, and humming along quietly (coolant flushed/filled at 60k miles with Toyota OEM).

A healthy modern liquid cooled 3URFE and cooling system does not generate oil temperatures that stress a modern synthetic 0w20.

If for some reason your engine oil temps are running hotter than what 0w20 can manage—perhaps cooling system flush/fill attention is well overdue.

NOTE1: To each their own on running 5w30 if it makes you feel happy inside.
NOTE2: Personally, if I felt the need for a higher viscosity—I’d only consider a full synthetic 0w30 every 5k miles in order to keep the 0w cold start engine protection.

 

[Zill]

Can you explain why the 3UR is much quieter at idle with 5W-30 compared to 0W-20?

That’s why I swapped to 5W-30

 

[doru]

It depends if your focus is only on lubrication or not. I like and trust the Oil Geek so he's not wrong. But the two needs are not the same or in opposition here.
And let's not forget that Toyota is specifying 5W-30 everywhere but in the US, and those "everywhere" places see a lot heavier duty use to heavy abuse than the trucks in the US.

It is clear by now that we have 0W-20 prescriber for MPG reasons. I'm not sure why people are still debating this one after so many years. Either oil is good for lubricating these engines. Just pick the one you like.

 

[dubaicruiser]

It is clear by now that we have 0W-20 prescriber for MPG reasons.

Yes here in middle east too the official dealer suggested 0W for this reason.
But a lot of us shifted to 5W-40 later on.

 

[Chamba]

I've run 0W-30 on my duramax diesel since it had 3.8 miles in it and it's at 85000 now. I tow an 8600 lb trailer and have done about 10,000 miles doing so. I live in the swampy big toe of America in Florida, where it doesn't get much hotter.

I also run the same oil on my wife's Tahoe diesel and have done since new. It now has 35,000 miles.

My friend Pete has the same engine but with 105,000 miles in Colorado. We ordered our trucks at the same time. He runs the same oil I do.

So far, so good. I trust the manufacturer me than a poorly made video with dramatic effects thrown in for suspense. I also find it hard to imagine that all these manufacturers colluded to destroy their products.

Governments mandate idiocy and companies respond as best they can.

 

[stonepa]

I trust Toyota's recommendations everywhere outside of the US, where they are driven by decreased cost of ownership over the short term and CAFE standards. ROW states 5W30, so that is what works for me. I buy my Land Cruisers for their absolute service life. 5W30 for me. And, yes, the engine starts and works just fine on -40F morning.

 

[bloc]

I've run 0W-30 on my duramax diesel since it had 3.8 miles in it and it's at 85000 now. I tow an 8600 lb trailer and have done about 10,000 miles doing so. I live in the swampy big toe of America in Florida, where it doesn't get much hotter.

I also run the same oil on my wife's Tahoe diesel and have done since new. It now has 35,000 miles.

My friend Pete has the same engine but with 105,000 miles in Colorado. We ordered our trucks at the same time. He runs the same oil I do.

So far, so good. I trust the manufacturer me than a poorly made video with dramatic effects thrown in for suspense. I also find it hard to imagine that all these manufacturers colluded to destroy their products.

Governments mandate idiocy and companies respond as best they can.

The -30 part (operating temp or 100C viscosity) of the 0w-30 oils I have looked into is usually thicker than on typical 5w-30s, so in a way your experience proves the point of 5w-30 over 0w-20.

Also 85 and 105k is chump change for a Toyota engine, even with that percentage accrued towing.

 

[2021 LC200]

The initial model years 200 series were factory supplied with 5W30. I do not think the lubrication system was redesigned and manufactured differently when the switch to 0W20 in the US was made for what appears to be CAFE requirements and as part of this per Lake the authorities apparently buy and test claimed mpg anonymously (which forced the change to 0W20 and on top no more run in oil from factory…). All in all I see 5W30 or for those living more North 0W30 as the better choice for longevity given de design of the 3UR-FE. I can also see changing every 5k miles (assuming personal non commercial use and a lot of short distance trips) and not driving away like a maniac from cold as being even more important.

What ever floats your boat of course or in this case your bearings…

 

[studawg]

As a mechanical engineer, I fully concur with Mr. Lake Speed in that their are a lot of AI myths and personal anecdotes that folks seem to want to believe—even though empirical data does not exist.

From new my 3URFE has received an oil/filter change every 5k miles with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w20.

At 73k miles and counting (plenty of hot weather summer use)—zero oil consumption and humming along quietly (coolant flushed/filled at 60k miles with Toyota OEM).

A healthy modern liquid cooled 3URFE doesn’t generate oil temperatures hot enough to stress a high quality synthetic 0w20, but the 0w definitely flows faster on cold startups. If your engine oil temps are running hotter than what 0w20 can manage—perhaps cooling system attention is overdue.

NOTE: To each their own on running 5w30 if it makes you feel better. Personally, if I felt the need for a higher viscosity—perhaps full synthetic 0w30 every 5k miles.

First of all, this debate predates "AI" by about 25 years. In the Land Cruiser world, this debate started with the fact that, in 1998, TOYOTA was recommending a higher viscosity oil for the 2UZFE V8 in the 100 Series Land Cruiser in all parts of the work that did NOT have the US CAFE standards. That has continued with the 3URFE. That fact is what led people with common sense to wonder "Why?" It wasn't based on any youtube video and certainly not AI.

Second, Lake Speed, in this video, does NOT say that there are NOT situations where a higher viscosity does not protect better than a lower one. He actually says the opposite; that there are some engines that will benefit from higher viscosity. And the data in the final graph that he puts up actually says exactly that. It shows the higher viscosity oil resulting in lower wear metals in those 3.0 liter diesel engines with over 10k miles.

Third, it seems that the main point of this video by Lake Speed is simply that that particular video comes to a conclusion based on BS data, or misinterpreted data, all compiled by some AI bot. His point is NOT that the conclusion is necessarily wrong, it's that you cant come to that conclusion based on the hand-picked data used in that video. Considering GM, one of the five largest automakers in the world, just literally changed the recommended viscosity for their 6.2L trucks/SUVs, of which they sell hundreds of thousands a year, from a 20 weight to a 40 weight because it was causing damage to their engines, it seems kinda crazy to me to suggest that in certain applications, a higher viscosity oil wont protect better.

I have followed Lake Speed and his researcy for a while because he has done a lot of research on the 3.4L M96 in the 996 Porsche 911, to which he refers in the video, and I own one of those. Porsche initially recommended Mobil 1 0w-40 and after years of failures and research it has been conclusively determined via testing and data, that was NOT the right oil to be using in that engine.

I think when you take it all into perspective, its impossible to discount the possibility that a 5w-30 protects better than a 0W-20 in the 3UR-FE, possibly in any climate within the continental US.

 

[studawg]

Considering these 3 facts:

-Toyota was recommending different viscosities for the same engine in different countries
-Porsche recommended an oil for its engine that after decades of research and testing determined it was not the right oil for it
-GM just changed the viscosity recommendation for one if its highest selling vehicles because the previously recommended viscosity was causing damage

I think it is safe to say that the best oil for your engine is not necessarily what the manufacturer tells you to use. If you want to say this oil is the best for your engine, it needs to be based on more than just "Because the manufacturer said so."

 

[gasman4u]

Considering these 3 facts:

-Toyota was recommending different viscosities for the same engine in different countries
-Porsche recommended an oil for its engine that after decades of research and testing determined it was not the right oil for it
-GM just changed the viscosity recommendation for one if its highest selling vehicles because the previously recommended viscosity was causing damage

I think it is safe to say that the best oil for your engine is not necessarily what the manufacturer tells you to use. If you want to say this oil is the best for your engine, it needs to be based on more than just "Because the manufacturer said so."

BLUF: I'm glad LSJr took the time to respond as this video needs a solid rebuttal.

LSJr has forgotten more about oil, tribology, etc than I will ever know. His response is thorough without claiming to know better than OEM's. I'd imagine if you got him offline he'd give you the brass tacks about why he'd recommend whatever wt oil for your specific engine and use case, but the YT attorneys and legal teams of OEM's I am sure watch to see if any big accounts make statements to go against their rec's stateside and will pursue it should it be necessary. If I had to guess, he's protecting his bottom line similar to self censorship that occurred approx. 2020-2023 for a litany of reasons. TBF he consistently says "application determines chemistry," and he's right IMO. There's a place for specific oil wt's, change frequency, etc and we often just go with whatever confirmation bias we have and press on. I am guilty of this, but try to reassess and have a rationale for why I make these decisions too. I too doubt the OEM's have longevity as the primary driver behind oil weight selection, but rather CAFE is the driving force of what they recommend. The chemistry and technology behind modern oils are incredible, but ultimately there will always be a balance to weigh when deciding.

The GM issue you're talking about had to do with timing being off (or lifter/bearing failures?) iirc and their short term fix was to switch weights of oil after an inspection to see if your engine was affected to try and extend service life from this. LSJr had a video on this too I believe with a great explanation. With the oil weight change recommendation "fix" you mentioned, funny enough the dealerships almost immediately ran out of the 0W40 oil and they reversed and said "0w20 is fine" from corporate GM. This happened within 72-96 hours of initial recommendation to increase to 0W40. I feel bad for those millions of owners affected by that.

Currently, I'm running 0w30 and will likely do so until warmer months because of my use case. 5W30 is looking VERY tempting come warmer months, but what if any benefit the extra winter wt provides remains TBD.

EDIT: an aside about A.I.: They pull from a LOT of message boards (reddit, etc) and their credibility should be questioned with anything meaningful in mind.

 

[doru]

The AI we have now is a misnomer, a marketing gimmick. It is far from being intelligence. Nevertheless, people think it is. The more complex is the issue the easier is for people to fall for it. Add to that the problem of confirmation bias and the state of our society at this moment and you get stuff like this.
At the end of the day there is no replacement for critical thinking, but we are not going in that direction. And like everything in humans, you use it or lose it, and the risk is for people to effectively become dumber over time or generations. The high plasticity of our brains implies that there is effort to put in to actually mold them. We are not going to school so many years because we are born smart.

Coming back to the oil, if you really want to know the answer to which oil is best for your engine, stop searching the web for the oracle or for a talking head that will confirm your personal bias and do what LSJr said so many times: do proper testing. That will give you the real answer for your particular engine, environment, and use of the vehicle. Make sure you do 2 oil changes and run each oil type at least 10k miles.

If you are not willing to do that then just use whatever OEM is recommending or whatever floats your boat BUT stop trying to convince others that whatever choice you make is better than whatever others made because you really do not know.

And my last 2c, most of us are practical people not engineers or scientist. I usually start with whatever OEM recommends. It is arogant for you to think you know better than them when you are new to a vehicle. I run tests on my oil at each change. If there are no concerns in the results, I just use that. If there are I look for causes other than oil. If all checks out Ok, I start researching for new oil by making changes and testing like described above. This is how I changed the oil to something that works best on my highly modified turbo car for my enviro and driving style (best here means minimize wear), something that is not the OEM and it is not what the peanut gallery in the interweb is swearing by.

On my cruiser I just use OEM because the tests are looking good.