2h with A440 at altitude? Is it realistic?

[gavin]

Ok. I've tried to avoid adding a newbie post by doing my reading and searching, but I am still left with my main burning question...is it just shooting myself in the foot to think that I am going to run an 86' HJ60 with an A440 transmission at my home altitude of 6,000' in Carbondale, CO.

I need a daily driver that is also a hunting rig and Moab explorer, no rock crawling but plenty of 4 low duty. The rig I have been looking at is all stock, but I am imagining new springs for a little lift and stepping up the tires a bit (no larger than 33"). Regular driving over passes at 10,000'+ sounds like I am going to be getting out and pushing the vehicle, good for getting rid of the love handles but.... On the other hand it sounds like Andre Shoumatoff has had some good experience turboing a 2h at similar elevations.

It sounds like a turbo would be mandatory. How much effect are the auto tranny and minor lift and tires going to have on the performance? Will the turbo compensate and improve power or just get me back to square one?

At some point I wonder if I would be better off waiting for/ importing a 3b and turboing it? Or buying a halfcut conversion or some other scenario.

Is there anyone else out there with direct experience of turboing a 2h for daily driving over 6,000'? What are the real speeds to be expected climbing mountain passes?

Finally, if my main concern was fuel econnomy at this altitude, what engine /tranny should I be chasing?

Any and all advice and commentary would be appreciated....Thanks

 

[lowenbrau]

My HJ60 auto slows way down when I swap to the 33s. (3300 ft here) It seems ok on 31s. If you are committed to the larger tires I'd get some 4.88s. The od is pretty deep in the auto and will still make speed on the highway. A turbo will wake the 2H right up especially at altitude but it'll still be a 5000 lb rig with 125 hp

 

[gavin]

So I take it that you do not have a turbo on yours? What sort of mileage are you getting? I do not mind a slowish vehicle but would like to not have to step down to VW camper speeds.What sort of speeds are you getting on highway grades heading into the Rockies?

Sounds like sticking with 31's would be smarter.

Any info on the manifold for a turbo on the 2H? Can you flip the exhaust? I have seen the AXT kit, but wonder if there is a cheaper way to get the manifold?

 

[cruiser_guy]

Any diesel that's naturally aspirated will suffer at altitude. That's a fact of life. To correct it you need to turbo it. The problem being that the 2H is not as good a candidate for a turbo as the 3B.

 

[wesintl]

I was just out your way this morning. In fact I was looking down on carbondale and had a nice view of sopris from the flat tops. Watched the sun go down on sopris, capitol and the rest last night.

Unless you are a die hard diesel and land cruiser lover you will be MISERABLE at altitude. Turbo is a requirement. Bruce driving at 3500 ft. is nebraska for us coloradans and when I get to that elevation I can feel the power come back to my 3b. 3500ft is like 0 ft for me I'm fine driving around town and offroad but get on the highway it's a different story. I can only manange about 60-65 if it's flat or a slight grade. Up hill is a different story. Eastbound vail pass is a nightmare for me same with eisenhower but at least is has a flasher lane. 25 up vail and with no slow lane it's a biotch. Some a$$hole passed me on the shoulder doing 80 and truckers catch me no problem with a full load. Westbound isn't so so bad as it's not as steep a grade. You will be at vw camper speeds (i've been passed by a camper)and with a turbo probably only a slight step up.

Your going to need to turbo and as far as i'm concerned at our altitude I don't even think it gets back to what stock is out here at that altitude. Your going to need gears and a turbo.

I can't speak for the 2h but I doubt it's a whole lot different with an auto than a 3b up here.

 

[lowenbrau]

My truck is very old and over fueling badly so I get about 16-19 MPG US. The mileage wasn't bothering me but the over fueling sucks. After 450,000km the pump has gone out of adjustment. I started building a turbo manifold so I could use up the extra fuel. Its just as easy to turbo the rig as it is to adjust the fuel on an auto.

I think vw camper speeds are realistic. If you want to go fast get an FJ60

There's lots of 2Hs running around with turbos and I've never heard of one burning pistons so, while cruiser_guy is correct about the 3B, it may not matter much.

Wes, if you like 3500 feet, you should go to Vancouver. Sea Level moist air will turn that exhaust smoke into tire smoke

 

[cruiser_guy]

You will be at vw camper speeds (i've been passed by a camper)and with a turbo probably only a slight step up.

I found that the turbo enabled me to take hills in a full gear higher. The Coquihalla Highway in B.C. used to be a 3rd gear hill. With the turbo I was able to do it in 4th.

 

[wesintl]

Wes, if you like 3500 feet, you should go to Vancouver. Sea Level moist air will turn that exhaust smoke into tire smoke

I'll just keep going slow til I find a job and get my turbo back on track. I like and have a new appreciation of the scenery. I can't take rain anmore with 300 days of beautiful colorado sun and humidity in the single digits. I like to visit vancouver although I've only been there once. Maybe Stone can take me fly fishing Sadly I haven't been out this year and when I have wheeling I managed to forget my rod

I'm not trying to talk you out of a diesel but you should be prepared to go slow. Everyone loves my truck but but most don't realize I leave an hour or so before they do to reach the trail head at the same time It took me 20 min to go up eastbound vail pass today

 

[wesintl]

I found that the turbo enabled me to take hills in a full gear higher. The Coquihalla Highway in B.C. used to be a 3rd gear hill. With the turbo I was able to do it in 4th.

So 25 in 2nd will be 45 in 3rd. Just what I thought

BTW.. if you interested in a bj70 I might have mine up for sale soon. ALL it needs is a turbo :whoops:

 

[gavin]

Thank you for the info- keep it coming...

I am a committed Diesel fan- and have a bit of a thing for the biodiesel. We have an '04 TDI Passat with a 2.1L and it rips on B20 (available commercially in carbondale). On Vail pass it will accellerate from 80 in order to not get cut off by the guy stuck behind Wes (although I would NEVER pass you on the shoulder, and would in fact slow down to admire your BJ70). I realize the cruiser will not do this. However 25 is a bit much...or a bit little...

Wes- sorry I didn't know you two days ago, I was up there hunting a few grouse when you were up there wheeling. Have to have you by for a beer next time you are through the neighborhood. The BJ70 would sound enticing except for the wife, two kids and dog......

There's lots of 2Hs running around with turbos and I've never heard of one burning pistons so, while cruiser_guy is correct about the 3B, it may not matter much.

Some of my hesitation was based on the rumors of "burning up the engine because there is no piston skirt cooling". Having never met a turbo'd 2H, I am most concerned about the manifold itself and the knowledge base for getting it done. I can turn a nut, but I'm not much of a wrench. There is a well admired cruiser magician across the hill- Proffit- I assume that I would get him to do the work. Anyone know someone with a turbo'd 2H?? That might share pictures and info? Lowenbrau, have you got anyone I might contact? Also, tell me more about this "as easy to turbo as to adjust the fuel flow on an auto".

 

[gavin]

Building the Manifold??

Lowenbrau, I just reread...you are building a manifold? Isn't the manifold cast? or is it machined? Please educate me here...what are you starting with? How much is buyng the manifold from AXT and then putting the rest of the pieces together yourself? Tell me more....?

 

[wesintl]

I am a committed Diesel fan- and have a bit of a thing for the biodiesel. We have an '04 TDI Passat with a 2.1L and it rips on B20 (available commercially in carbondale). On Vail pass it will accellerate from 80

Yes.. My wife's Jetta TDI is much more fun on the highway and passes. 80+ no prob. Is your b-20 out there "Blue Sun"?

I saw one guy with his GSP up there. I wish I had mine with me she would have loved the checking the fields ;p

 

[gavin]

Then you know what I am talking about with German turbo diesel acceleration. WOW!

Yes...blue sun, but I hear the CEO doesn't even drive a diesel- gasser Expedition, kinda pathetic if true.

My Chessie had a blast, she may be a water dog, but knows how to have fun in the mountains as well.

 

[lowenbrau]

I just weld up manifolds as required using weld 90s and plate mostly. They flow better than teh factory offerings after some time porting. I was going to try a Supra CT26 since it was laying around though I'm expecting it to be a bit laggy. Its not that turboing is completely easy is just that HJ60 autos are a huge pain in the arse to adjust fuel on. If you aren't doing the work yourself you might as well just order the AXT kit and send the rig to Jeremy.

Oh and a 2H rebuild kit including pistons and sleeves is less than $800 delivered from Australia. What have you got to lose? Maybe you should buy mine for $2K and use it for a guinnea pig.

 

[lowenbrau]

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=43616&highlight=turbo+manifold

That's the 3B one I built.

 

[gavin]

Lowenbrau- Thanks for the link. I am impressed and inspired, but not equipped or inclined -unfortunately. If you happened to want to make two we might have something to talk about...? But maybe it would not turn out to be any cheaper than the AXT route.

The HJ I am after is a bit pricier, but it has got a great body & interior, low miles and is already imported, if I was trying the importation thing I would want a finished rig.... but if you have any interesting leads .....I might consider the importation route.

Any other tricks for outwitting altitude? Differentials? Gearing?

Thanks again for all the helpful info.

 

[ridgerunner]

Every few months I get to drive over Eisenhower and I70 (I drive that to Moab instead of I80 because it's more fun!) and really don't have any problems as far as altitude goes. I have to slow down to 60mph, keep it in forth on most of the hills (some slower), but otherwise I think a turbo'd HJ60 would do quite well at that alititude. If you've driven the truck and like it, for me that'd be the deal breaker- after you turbo it you'll like it even more.

I would talk more to Andre, and see if he has any pictures of his turbo-ing. I know he put the turbo on to sell the truck and then kicked himself for getting rid of it afterwards....

 

[wesintl]

Any other tricks for outwitting altitude? Differentials? Gearing?

The only way to combat altitude is force more air in there. Turbo or supercharge. Gearing helps but only so much. You need horsepower. You could also propane inject.

 

[cruiser_guy]

So 25 in 2nd will be 45 in 3rd. Just what I thought

BTW.. if you interested in a bj70 I might have mine up for sale soon. ALL it needs is a turbo :whoops:

Something like that. I used to do it at 60kph in third (sorry Canadian trucks at metric), after the turbo I was able to do it in fourth at about 90kph!! I don't know about you but to me that's a significant difference.

No need of a BJ70. I've got my hands full with the FJ45LV restoration and possibly putting a 3B or 13B in there, with a turbo of course!!

 

[Tapage]

Any diesel that's naturally aspirated will suffer at altitude. That's a fact of life. To correct it you need to turbo it. The problem being that the 2H is not as good a candidate for a turbo as the 3B.

Why not . ?

I have a HJ-60 with 2H and bla bla bla .. the issue is, without Turbo over 2000M you would miss it .. you can replace your factory gears with 4.88 and I'm 226% sure that your 2H with 33" climb very well and with plenty of power.

Don't get me wrong .. plenty of non turbo powered TLC .. better than factory with 31" and 3.70. Definetly Turbo is Turbo nothing to say.

Jumm you can't flip it up ( the exhaus manifold ) is a 2 piece.