HELP: Crank, no start!

[flat4turbo]

HELP: Crank, no start. TEMPORARILY UPDATED: NO SPARK!

Okay, so here's the run-down:

I just did the starter contacts and plunger overhaul on my '94.

Before I realized this was my problem for the "stuck starter" I had torn apart the dash trying to find the starter relay (thanks to Chilton and Haynes for not showing exactly where the relay is).

Now the starter is working fine but the truck won't start.

** Fuses and Fusables all checkout fine.
** Did full-throttle start and it reeks of gas!! (so that's not my problem)
** Coil and plugs *are not* getting power <--------------------------------------CORRECTION ( I thought there was no distribution ).

** I've gone back into the dash and check ever freakin' connection and grounding point (AT LEAST TWICE) and it all looks fine.

ECU shows no error codes, naturally. :-(

I went back to check if maybe the wire from the starter back to the ECU might not have good contact, but I wasn't able to remove the plug to recheck these contact but it's ON secure in its plug. <------------- This statement is flawed, otherwise the starter would not turn! So this couldn't be it.

I've read through some of the tech FAQ and emergency check-list, but am stumped as to what might be the issue here.

Fellas and ladies, I've exhausted my troubleshooting methods and hope someone with a fresh brain can help.


flat4turbo

 

[flat4turbo]

Also. Under the dash where the kick panel is, there appears to be a connector which looks like a Service/Test connector which appears to loopback onto itself with yellow wires.

Can anyone tell me if this plug should remain undone, or should they be connected to itself under normal conditions?

Thanks.

 

[Lka1988]

Is the wire going from coil to dizzy connected?

 

[flat4turbo]

LKA988, YES, there is a connection.

As it turns out I was wrong. Found a cheapo plug wire test-light wand and it appears the plugs are getting power!

So, I gave up and decided to flat-bed the truck to my local dealer. Boy was that a big mistake!

I got a call back today telling me the problem is not electrical, it is mechanical in the engine. They want to charge me $998 just to take the engine apart to get an estimate. NO WAY! I said. So I am waiting for the tech who was working on it to call me back so I can see what tests he's run and talk them out of this silliness!

** I know the engine was trying to run while the starter was stuck engaged (like 200-300 RPM for a good minute before I was able to pull the battery), but I cannot imagine beyond maybe valvetrain damage/misalignment or the distributor jumping a tooth being a problem resulting from this.

AM I WRONG HERE!?

Anyone with advice as to the next step I should take?

Thanks a ton for any useful input,
-f4t

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

First I don't know if I follow the chronology of your issue....is it-

Truck is running fine

Then-starter get's stuck on for a minute or so-you disconnect battery and....

Then you rebuild starter

When done you have a crank no start issue

You have trouble concluding the diagnosis so you take it to dealer----dealer says issue is mechanical.

Is this right?

In any case...I for sure would want to chat with the tech who is working on this to see where he thinks he's going. I cannot see anyway that the truck would suffer a mechanical issue resultant the starter being stuck for a minute or two. And the distributor jumping...way unlikely.

Was there any other work you performed other than rebuilding the starter? Anything else you touched other than disconnecting the battery prior to starting?

 

[flat4turbo]

First I don't know if I follow the chronology of your issue....is it-

Truck is running fine

Then-starter get's stuck on for a minute or so-you disconnect battery and....

Then you rebuild starter

When done you have a crank no start issue

You have trouble concluding the diagnosis so you take it to dealer----dealer says issue is mechanical.

Is this right?

In any case...I for sure would want to chat with the tech who is working on this to see where he thinks he's going. I cannot see anyway that the truck would suffer a mechanical issue resultant the starter being stuck for a minute or two. And the distributor jumping...way unlikely.

Was there any other work you performed other than rebuilding the starter? Anything else you touched other than disconnecting the battery prior to starting?

This chronology is absolutely correct! Everything was fine prior to the starter getting stuck.


I had originally torn the dash apart looking for the starter relay only to find t was down behind the kick-panel.

So, I assumed the reason the truck wouldn't run because I had disconnect/grounded/disturbed something under the dash!

Now this.

ALSO: I explained everything to the service department handler-lady, but have very little confidence this information was passed along to the tech, which is why I'm trying to get them to call me back.

 

[flat4turbo]

*&&*^@#*^$&!(!!!!!!


So I just got the news.

Compression test show a range of 45psi - 110 psi across al cylinders, where this engine should be at ~150 psi. The guy convinced me a tear-down is needed!


THE EXPLANATION GOES LIKE THIS:

-- Gasoline in its liquid form is non-compressable, and likely the cylinders were flooded after I installed the starter... You know the rest!


Anyone interested in a 94 River Rock Green TLC ~ 150k miles with a blown engine?

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOHH!!!!

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

Well...prior to doing what I do now I spent a lot of time as a service manager/writer/handler-man at various stores, Toyota being one.

Some of what you told them I'm sure was passed on to the tech but he probably dismissed and went in looking for the issue on his own. But I still find it very VERY unlikely there is a mechanical issue. Not to say this tech is not competent.

They probably made you okay an hour or so of "check out time" to try to figure out that the issue is. Which really should be more than enough. So if the tech is saying mechanical, which again I find hard to believe, he should be able to explain what he did you arrive at this diagnosis....low compression, cylinder leak down, etc. There are very easy things you can do to figure out what the problem is.

Dunno what to tell you brotha...don't know how mechanical you are but, but don't let the tech bully you on the phone in "buying" his scenario and what he wants to do.

Let's say it is mechanical, and not to beat a dead horse BUT I DOUBT IT'S MECHIANICAL, he can pop off the valve cover and do some simple things like put #1 on TDC and make sure the valves are timed correctly and or run some cylinder leakdown by putting a compression tester into the spark plug hole and see if air comes out of the exhaust/intake. Usually not really necessary as you can visually see the valves open and close under the cam lobes.

What I would not do is let them tear down the motor beyond removing the valve cover. And if you don't feel comfortable with what they are telling you talk to friends and neighbors and find a good competent independent repair shop. Personally I'd avoid taking a car to a dealer and if friends ask I always steer them clear of dealer service departments unless I know people at that shop.

There a some good techs out there but honestly, and I've gotten to know probably close to a hundred techs in my tenure in the auto business...they have egos way too big for themselves, and not very many are what I would call "skilled" or "talented." Most are from the "try me, buy me" school. As in "hey parts guy, lemmie have a flux capacitor to see if it fixes this car"...and when it does not they just bring it back and guess again.

Good luck man

 

[flat4turbo]

SBFJ60FIG,

I guess we were posting at the same time. ;-0

check the update. What do you think?

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

So how many cylinders had low compression?

And sure any liquid is not compressible but I really don't think that you could have flooded the engine to the point of bending a connecting rod? Further, the starter is probably not strong enough to bend a rod either.

Again, valve cover off....leak down test should provide an answer as to what the issue is...why compression is low.

What is the tech proposing pulling the head?

 

[flat4turbo]

He's actually proposing pulling the engine to a stand.

I did not get into what cylinders had what compression with him, but he did say he tested 1 though 4.

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

Tear down really just puts you deeper into it with that shop...if indeed the motor happens to be f*cked, there is no need to tear it very far down. Again, pull the valve cover or even putting a metal rod down the cylinders to see if some pistons don't come all the up to TDC will give you your answer. Or the leak down test....

Leak down...cylinder XYZ at TDC, valve cover off....intake and exhaust valves closed...allow air into cylinder....see if any comes out of exhaust or intake....if it does bam...valve issue.

If you need a new motor then get one....don't spend time/money on finding out why you need a new motor. But hey, if compression is low that for sure is a problem.

 

[flat4turbo]

Also, I've never heard of a flooded cylinder bending a rod by a starter either, come to think of it.

But I do know I have the 2kW cold-weather starter.

 

[flat4turbo]

I guess it is possible one firing cylinder may have caused another flooded one to create the problem?

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

He's actually proposing pulling the engine to a stand.

I did not get into what cylinders had what compression with him, but he did say he tested 1 though 4.

Yikes....pulling the motor! Ugh!

Uh, yeah...I would not let them do that unless you want to be into with them for $5,000 or more in the end! Plus, he should be able to find out why there is low compression easily w/o pulling the motor.


Quick story....a little over a year ago I bought a '97 FZJ80 that a shop pulled the motor on to "diagnose" a problem. They then quoted the guy over $9,000 for a new motor. I bought the thing....motor out...and rebuilt the engine and sold it to a fellow Mudder.

Well, when I got the motor home I found nothing wrong with it. The problem as it was described to me was that it shook at idle. They pulled the oil pan, found the windage tray thing ripped from inside the pan and condemned the motor as bad.

IMHO, the pan could have been pulled-in the chassis-thoroughly cleaned, valve cover pulled, thoroughly cleaned, all metal bits pulled out, replaced the ripped windage tray part and that motor probably would have been fine. What do I care....I ended up doing well fixing it and driving it and selling it.

But my point is they steering the customer in the wrong direction and tried to sell them a $10,000+ repair on a < $10,000 truck.....they smartly said no and I bought the truck.

Dunno brother....just be ready to spend a lot of dough if you let them keep going!

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

I guess it is possible one firing cylinder may have caused another flooded one to create the problem?

But all this is predicated on what....an injector leaking enough fuel into the cylinder to fill it? And when did that happen?

If all that happened is the truck was cranking for a minute...you shut it down....rebuilt starter....then tried to start the truck when did a cylinder or two flood?

Something is odd here.

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

I'm out....my maybe Subaru driven friend...I'll check back later to see if I can assist any more....and where are you in this country?

 

[Beowulf]

(thanks to Chilton and Haynes for not showing exactly where the relay is).

Everyone that is a DIY guy simply MUST use the official Toyota Factory Service Manual (FSM.) Anything less is going to get you in trouble. You can dl an electronic version for $10 from TIS plus a few hours of your time... probably a lot less time than you spent chasing around for a non-existent relay.

Lets summarize:
* Truck runs fine
* Starter problem, starter keeps running
* Rebuild starter
* No-start, tear up dash
* No-start, flat-bed to dealer
* Dealer does compression check and wants to pull engine

Unfortunately, you didn't get much help from the forum members (other than SBFJ60FIG who was giving good suggestions) between the time that you asked for help and the time you took it to the dealer. I'm guessing this is a dd and you panicked. Hopefully you can get your truck back from them.

The starter R&R is a 2 banana job for a novice DIY guy with no prior 80-series work. However, you have to be careful to put everything back correctly and be careful with those things that get disturbed during a repair of this kind.

Just throwing out a few things....
When the starter "runs on" it can cause problems in the electrical system. We have seen toasted alternators and other bad problems. The fusible links might have been blown.

It seems HIGHLY unlikely that you could have dumped enough fuel in the cylinders to hydro-lock multiple cylinders and bend valves. I am really skeptical about that diagnosis at this time. In fact, it seems more likely that the tech might have a bad compression gauge or might not have done the compression check correctly. Is there anything that you are not telling us?

Let us know when you have the truck back and someone will help. You were getting good advice but I guess it wasn't timely enough. That is unfortunate.

-B-

 

[flat4turbo]

Well I'm on the phone with mechanical support (my brother).

I was given the same motivational speech you gave, which is it can't be mechanical!

Toyota dealership be damned, I'm bringing it back home to conduct more test myself!

And Yes, My other car is a WRX STI! -



THANKS AGAIN!! I WILL UPDATE THE FORUM AS I PERFORM MORE TEST!

G'Night.

 

[SBFJ60FIG]

Another thing to note...the sophisticated ear should be able to pick up on an engine that has a compression/mechanical timing issue.

In that it will sound odd while cranking over....and much different than it has for however long one has owned the car/truck/suv.

But I second the thought of getting the truck out of that shop just didn't want to be pushy with the other people's decisions.

Pulling a motor is in no way a viable method to diagnose this. And further, seems very odd to be so hastily suggesting this.

If you end up pulling it out of there and have another shop or yourself fix it in another way or refute this shop's diagnosis you should go back and ask for whatever money they charge you back too!

Any hey...thanks for the validation 'B'

Jason