Spongy / Low Brakes! CAN'T FIX.. PLEASE HELP! (1 Viewer)

[Black93Hardtop]

PEASE HELP ME BEFORE I GO NUTS!

1997 Toyota Land Cruiser (fully loaded)
4 wheel disc brakes
ABS
114,000 miles

It has a low brake pedal and feels very spongy. Here is the best way I can describe how it stops. When depressing the brake pedal the truck starts slowing and the further you press it the more it stops, but the pedal travel goes way down low. During a panic stop it is less than an inch from bottoming out, but stops smoothly and fairly quickly. I pulled all four wheels off and checked brake wear. The front pads are around 60+% life left, and the rear pads are around 40-50% life. No gringing, squeeling, or any funny nioses. Honestly it stops very quickly if you hammer on the brake pedal, but it will not activate ABS or lock up the tires like many on here say it should. It just stops quickly. All four calipers appear to be working since all the rotors get hot after braking and they are all wearing evenly. I read through the forum here and many said they changed the master cylinder and the spongy pedal feel went away. I did just that and nothing changed! Yes, I CHANGED THE MASTER CYLINDER! All the hard lines are rust free with NO LEAKS. The flexable rubber lines up front and the one in the rear are all in fantastic shape. What the hell is wrong here. My brake pedal has about 1/4-1/2 free play and feels very nice. I did the master cylinder check and it passes (new and old). PLEASE HELP ME!

Recap:
97' LC with ABS
Brand New Master Cylinder (properly bench blead and installed)
No Leaks in braking system at all
Blead air out of calipers
Rubber lines seem perfect
Even pad wear and all four corners are working
Correct freeplay in brake pedal
Fresh Fluid

I'm guessing air is in the ABS unit and I cannot get it out. Is there a procedure to bleeding air from the ABS unit? Any help is greatly appreciated. If you guys need any more info I'll supply it. I'll even take a video is need be.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[CappyKD]

Did you bleed at the LSPV???

 

[CappyKD]

On these trucks you gotta bleed the master, calipers and the LSPV.

 

[Black93Hardtop]

Ok, I blead the lspv and it is MUCH better, but still doesn't stop as fast as I would expect. The pedal is higher up and feels more sensitive now. Not near as tight and sensitive as most newer cars, but it is better that's for sure!

I have no idea what brand pads and rotors are on it, but I'm guessing Toyota since the previous owners took it to Toyota for everything! All the filters, wiper blades, ect... were all from Toyota. Should I turn the rotors and put some 100 series Pads on it?? I'm hoping that helps it even more. Let me know please.

Also, THANK YOU GUYS VERY MUCH!!!

Brian

 

[CappyKD]

Yes, I would re-bleed all parts and of your pads are 60% or less then replace the pads with 100 and turn the rotors (replace would be better) Glad to help.

 

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

The simple fact is, getting really good feeling brakes on 80s is hard. Not impossible. Hard. Even bleeding them is tough to do well.

Dave

 

[jditom]

I got much better feel when I switched to Slee SS lines. Then when I lifted it I also added the 3 extended SS lines. Much nicer. Also adjusting the LSPV helped.

 

[Firedog]

I have been trying to bleed my '93 for the past two days without much luck. Finally I went out and bought a garden sprayer and made a pressure bleeder. I managed to flow a quart of fluid through EACH bleeder this morning just to make sure all the air was out.
It worked! Finally have brakes again!!!

 

[Black93Hardtop]

I have been trying to bleed my '93 for the past two days without much luck. Finally I went out and bought a garden sprayer and made a pressure bleeder. I managed to flow a quart of fluid through EACH bleeder this morning just to make sure all the air was out.
It worked! Finally have brakes again!!!

How exactly did you make the pressure bleeder? Did you have to go out and buy another brake fliud cap? Then modify it?

Just to be clear, pressure bleading consists of a fluid pump like a garden pump sprayer connected to a master cyliner with about 20psi of pressure and opening up the lines one by one. Correct? I'm interested in doing this also to make sure all the air is out and to hopefully get even better pedal feel. The 100 series pads and fresh brakes are on my list of things to do before Winter, but for now I'm considering the Pressure bleeding method.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Firedog]

How exactly did you make the pressure bleeder? Did you have to go out and buy another brake fliud cap? Then modify it?

Thanks,
Brian

It was pretty easy, I just bought the cheapest garden sprayer i could find, removed the wand and the hose and replaced it with about 6' of 3/8 ID clear vinyl hose. I also installed a cheap pressure gauge directly to the tank of the sprayer.
On the master cylinder end, I used a 1 1/2" rubber plumbing cap. I put a 3/8 " hose nipple through the cap with a thin fender washer on either side (one inside the cap and one outside).
I used a regular hose clamp to secure the rubber cap to the master cylinder.
I filled the sprayer with 1/2 gallon of brake fluid, pressurized it to 15 psi, then bled the lspv and each of the cylinders. I attached an empty brake fluid container to the bleeder valve with a piece of 1/4" clear vinyl hose and just let a quart run through each line.
I had completely flushed the lines before, so each time the brake fluid container became full I would just dump it back in the sprayer.

Here are a couple of pictures of the setup.

 

[AndoCommando]

Nice job on the home made pressure bleeder. I'm about to get the 100 series pads and new rotors before winter too. These rigs are tanks and they eat pads!!!

 

[Brian894X4]

I had the same problem. This is what I've done in order and affect.

No. 1. Bleed like crazy, using numerous methods expect pressure tank.
Affect: Unsuccessful, no change.

No. 2: Took it to dealer and had them bleed.
Affect: Better slightly.

No. 3: Dealer suggested adjusting the rod between the master cylinder and brake booster.
Affect: Better again...slightly.

No. 4: Adjusted LSVP (raised) to compensate for OME 2.5" lift
Affect: A tiny bit, hard to tell.

No. 5: Swapped out front aftermarket pads (from PO) with brand new Toyota pads (80 series)
Affect: Dramatic improvement (old pads were nearly brand new too, at about 90%)

No. 6: Swapped out rear (Toyota OEM pads) with new Toyota pads.
Affect: Minimal affect.

As of current, pedal feel is much better and I can finally engage the anti-lock as normal. In my case, about 50% of the problem was poor bleeding of the brakes by a crappy brake shop (Midas) from the prior owner and an out of adjustment master cylinder.

The other 50% was very, very crappy aftermarket front brake pads. I'm not sure if these pads were glazed over or just extremely poor quality, but replacing them really changed the brake feel.

I'd say the brakes are about 90% where they should be for me. I plan to eventually replace rotors, and softlines with steel to get some extra improvement and maybe go 100 series pads. But it's a lot better than when I first got it.


P.S. Don't undo any of the lines to the ABS unit. Whatever you do, you don't want to accidently get air into the ABS unit.

 

[Black93Hardtop]

WOW! Thanks for the info and Firedog... I can't thank you enough. Tomorrow I'm doing exactly what you did. I can't wait.

I may just do 100 series pads on turned rotors for now just to see. Besides factory Toyota pads, are there any good aftermarket pads? Should I use Semi-metallic or Ceramic?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Firedog]

WOW! Thanks for the info and Firedog... I can't thank you enough. Tomorrow I'm doing exactly what you did. I can't wait.

I may just do 100 series pads on turned rotors for now just to see. Besides factory Toyota pads, are there any good aftermarket pads? Should I use Semi-metallic or Ceramic?

Thanks,
Brian

You are very welcome, if you have any questions, let me know.
BTW- I have never found an aftermarket pad that would work well with 80 series Land Cruisers or either of the first two generations of 4Runner. I have not tried them all, but i have tried quite a few. For the cost, you might as well go with what you know works - Toyota.

One other thing, after I pressure bled my truck, the pedal was solid, but felt low to me. I did a couple of hard "panic" stops and everything returned to normal. I had replaced all pads and I think they just needed to be seated.

Good luck!

 

[Black93Hardtop]

Thanks again for the great info. Before I build that awesome pressure bleeder and pressure bleed my brakes I'm going to install new rear pads and new front brakes using 100 series pads from Toyota.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[tomatopants]

When I was reading the repairs/maintenance done to my Cruiser a while back, I saw that the PO took it to the dealership because the brakes were spongy and she had to downshift, floor the brake and pull the e-brake.


They looked at it and saw that the brakes had gotten really hot, but they also noticed that the rotors were undersized.


Maybe your rotors are too small.

 

[Black93Hardtop]

When I was reading the repairs/maintenance done to my Cruiser a while back, I saw that the PO took it to the dealership because the brakes were spongy and she had to downshift, floor the brake and pull the e-brake.


They looked at it and saw that the brakes had gotten really hot, but they also noticed that the rotors were undersized.


Maybe your rotors are too small.

I checked them out and the rotors are defiantly correct. The pads are 80 series and everything looks great besides some slight pitting on the rotors. This was probably caused by the previous owner not driving it very much. They said that it was only driven once and a while since they both got new cars and it just sat there. I think they are fine though. That lspv bleeding defiantly helped and I still can't thank you guys enough. I only wish I posted sooner so i didn't have to change the master cylinder.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[97 FZJ80]

Change the front pads to OEM. I'm trying out some aftermarket ceramic 100 series front pads and its making the brakes feel spongy. I'm going back to OEM 100 pads after this set.

 

[Black93Hardtop]

Change the front pads to OEM. I'm trying out some aftermarket ceramic 100 series front pads and its making the brakes feel spongy. I'm going back to OEM 100 pads after this set.

Ok, I was going to try some Car Quest 100 series Ceramics so thanks for the heads up! OEM 100 series pads it is. It looks like CDan is the best price. Correct?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[97 FZJ80]

Ok, I was going to try some Car Quest 100 series Ceramics so thanks for the heads up! OEM 100 series pads it is. It looks like CDan is the best price. Correct?

Thanks,
Brian

Yep! CDan and Toyota OEM is it!

FWIY, the aftermarket ceremics last longer than the typical 20k-25k miles I get with the OEM 100 series pads.