Which motor???

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Joined
Apr 5, 2004
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Location
San Antonio, TX
So after GSMTR '10, it was determined that my winch motor sucks. I have a 12K warn that had been previously hardly used. After a late evening rescue of 4 vehicles and winching out during the rock crawling event, the motor was not performing. Speaking with other attendees, they steered me to the 12K endurance which has the best duty cycle of the Warn winches.

From what I can tell, the only difference in the motor is the added air induction to keep the motor cool. Does anyone disagree? It has the same 4.5hp rating, but the gearing in the winch housing is different to increase line speed. My question is should I go with the air cooled 4.5 hp motor or go with a 6hp motor that has the same duty cycle as I have right now? Or, I guess I can go with a 6hp motor and mod the case to incude air, and have the best of both worlds. I know that I will be upgrading to a dual batt setup as well, so that is out of the equation. Any ideas will help

Thanks,
 
If your looking for the best duty cycle, hydraulic is best by far. It runs off your power steering pump, so if the engine is running, you can winch all day long at any load.

I don't know how much the new warn you want is, but I bet with the cost of the new winch, and the cost of dual batts, you would save money, and be happier with a hydro.
 
Not looking to relpace the winch, just the motor. I am sure the dual batts can be used for other things, so no worries there. You are right about the hydro duty cycle, but if motor can't run, can't run the winch. Thanks for your advice.
 
The main killer of a winch motor is heat.

Low volting the motor during pulls increases the heat rapidly and leads to premature burn out - this is usually from using a old battery, a single battery system, or dodgy wiring - which are all common faults. Also bogging the motor down leads to super fast heat build up.

If you're going to be doing any amount of winching you will want a good dual battery system with decent sized batteries that have lots of CCAs and good RC.

A strong winch is not necessarily the right solution because as pulling power goes up, speed usually goes down due to the gearing and that just means more time under load and a longer time to drain the batteries. It is often better to use a much faster winch (M8274) and double line often to keep the load on the motor low (and the amp draw low).

I have been the winch bitch at numerous poker runs and have never had problems with using my 8274 (24V) and the relatively feeble 24V 20A alternator - but with two large, healthy batteries. The pulls I used to do during these events were back to back pulls of about 40 to 50 feet at moderate load (think 30* slope, very rocky washed out terrain) for up to a couple of hours on end - never a problem doing it either.

I'd revisit the electrical source and how you're working your winch. Slow and strong is not necessarily the right way to do it. Fast and strong (or double lined - not because it's needed, but because it's just better practice and is far easier on the winch) is often a better way to do things.

Just my thoughts...

~John
 
The main killer of a winch motor is heat.

Low volting the motor during pulls increases the heat rapidly and leads to premature burn out - this is usually from using a old battery, a single battery system, or dodgy wiring - which are all common faults. Also bogging the motor down leads to super fast heat build up.

If you're going to be doing any amount of winching you will want a good dual battery system with decent sized batteries that have lots of CCAs and good RC.

A strong winch is not necessarily the right solution because as pulling power goes up, speed usually goes down due to the gearing and that just means more time under load and a longer time to drain the batteries. It is often better to use a much faster winch (M8274) and double line often to keep the load on the motor low (and the amp draw low).

I have been the winch bitch at numerous poker runs and have never had problems with using my 8274 (24V) and the relatively feeble 24V 20A alternator - but with two large, healthy batteries. The pulls I used to do during these events were back to back pulls of about 40 to 50 feet at moderate load (think 30* slope, very rocky washed out terrain) for up to a couple of hours on end - never a problem doing it either.

I'd revisit the electrical source and how you're working your winch. Slow and strong is not necessarily the right way to do it. Fast and strong (or double lined - not because it's needed, but because it's just better practice and is far easier on the winch) is often a better way to do things.

Just my thoughts...

~John

John,

Thanks for your wisdom and expalanations. It puts a better light in what I want to do. In my application, 12k# warn, the gearing of the winch will not be changing since I already have the winch and it was basically free. I think in the added power of the 6hp motor should help out. What do you think? Will the added hp increase speed? Additionally I will see if I can mod the case similar to the endurance 12K# by adding cool air, fan, and lines to the motor.

Unfortunately, last weekend I had to spool out alomost all of my cable(all but 3 wraps), so doubling up was not an option, short of having some extensions. Also it was such a steep incline, in muddy rocks, that even locked F&R I could not make it up, nor could anyone else. I did do all the things that I was not supposed to do, but I thik the motors had issues already. Oh well, live and learn.

Electrically, I willbe adding a second batt(optima yellow top) to my red top. When winching it is best to run both batts together, right (A+B)?

I would guess that nobody goes out looking to winch but it would be best to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

Thanks,

Darius
 
Oh, you were running a single battery - that's probably the single biggest problem right there. You simply don't have enough capacity to adequately run the winch on one battery, especially when the winch is relatively slow and making long pulls. If the winch is basically decoration, and you might do a 20' pull once in a while, then a single battery will get you by. If you're really going to use the winch, then you need a strong, well-maintained charging system.

A note on batteries: I make no secret about it that I am not a fan of Optima batteries. In my experience, the Optima battery that gave them a reputation for quality and power is a thing of the past. I do not have all that much respect for those batteries anymore as I see a large number of premature failures, and they absolutely do not survive (for even weeks in some cases) in 24V electrical systems which we work on a lot.

Up here, north of the 49th, in Canuckistan, we actually see more 24V systems and dual battery 12V systems due to the large number of diesels we work on than just about anything else. If there's one thing that doesn't work well in pretty much any dual battery system, it's running 2 batteries that are not of identical construction, age, type, size and manufacture. Yes, you can do it and get away with it for a while, but in the long term you're not going to be getting the best performance out of your system if it's mix and match. If you don't want to believe me, then just do a brief search in the Diesel section here on 'Mud to see how often battery related questions crop up.

If you're going to be running dual batteries, then, I would suggest that you make them the same ones - blue, green, yellow, red, black, or whatever. You don't really need to have a rainbow of colours under hood... we're not after the decorative value of the battery case, we're looking for solid performance.

The other thing about batteries and battery maintenance is that virtually all automotive charging systems do not properly charge or maintain AGM batteries. AGMs will perform far better if they are recharged and maintained with a relatively high-tech (usually external) voltage regulator/charge monitor that feeds them the correct voltage and current during the recharge cycle. I can't think of too many people, other than boaters and overlanders, who will spend that kind of money on a proper charging system.

So, what would I suggest? Get two identical batteries of the largest group size that you can reasonably put under your hood. Try a Group 27 or maybe even a Group 31. I personally run (Made in the USA) East Penn / Deka Group 27s, but there are others out there that are very good as well. A really good group 27 may not list the highest overall CCAs, but really high CCAs usually means thin plates (read: not very robust) that will break down more quickly over time. Deep Cycle batteries usually have thicker plates and hefty plate construction for durability and, as a result, have a lower CCA value. In the middle, somewhere, is a happy medium.

When shopping for a battery look for features like forged battery posts, good grid construction of both grid plates (and not just cheap expanded mesh), a large case (since the amount of electrolyte present does play a role), good weight, and anchored plate envelopes (plates are set into resin to resist vibration).

You do not need to isolate the batteries in your system, but if you feel you really need to, then using an isolator like the Redarc Smart Start is a really good way to go. Diode based isolators, by nature of their design, introduce voltage drop across the system, and voltage drop is evil.

As for the winch motor, the 6HP unit is going to be a good upgrade. It might be a good time to replace the solenoids with something a little more reliable than the Warn offerings if you're going to be using the winch more than just a little (Albright solenoid).

And, yes, there are people who go out looking to winch then they go out fourwheeling :)


~John
 
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If your looking for the best duty cycle, hydraulic is best by far. It runs off your power steering pump, so if the engine is running, you can winch all day long at any load.

I don't know how much the new warn you want is, but I bet with the cost of the new winch, and the cost of dual batts, you would save money, and be happier with a hydro.

PFfffftt... If you're talking about the Milemarker.... you can keep them, thanks.

Seriously bloody slow, quite anemic unless you put at least as much, if not considerably more, work into the hydraulics system as you would put into a solid dual battery system.

I've been on both ends of a Milemarker hydro, and all I can say is "no thanks" I'll keep my 24V 8274s.


~John
 

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