Warn M12000-S vs 9.5XP-S Thoughts

[4wheelgreg]

Thoughts on Warn M12000 vs the 9.5 XP-s ... I have a TJM bumper on the way but doing some research on what will work all around for the LC , most this will do ispell my LC out of NJ sand in Pines , no real work for my LC thats why I was considering the 9.5 because of the weight .
Besides the warn winches on my ATVs my last Warn was a 16.5 on a big suburban .
Any one have a Warn M12 in combination with a T13 TJM , How tight of a squeeze is the M12 in that space ?
Figure Cyber Monday is coming might get a deal .

 

[linuxgod]

How built is your truck? Is 9500# sufficient for you or do you need a 12k? How often do you wheel and/or anticipate you'll need the winch? How important to you is size, weight, cost, speed, duty cycle, etc? Planning to run synthetic or steel line?

FWIW I looked and these but ultimately I went with the Warn VR12S. Slower than the M12000 but lighter and less expensive. While the 9.5 might be OK, with the recommended 1.5x weight factor I felt I technically needed a winch capable of 11k # (1.5x GVWR).

 

[WesSiler]

Yeah, I'd go with a 12,000 pounder. 1.5x GVWR is the magic number. Even if you only ever use it once, your winch will pay for itself. It's not something you want to skimp on.

I used our Zeon 12-S a few weeks ago to winch out a giant food truck (you can imagine the cascade of poor decision making that occurred before I drove by). When you need to use a winch, it'll likely be the only tool capable of performing the job, so having enough capacity is really important. The wireless controller also made the entire job a 90 second affair. A cop was about to try a tow recovery using a ratchet strap before I got there...

Going to swap on a Flatlink E next month, just to make things that much safer.

 

[Markuson]

I’m no winching expert, though I’ve done a fair amount including very heavy pulls. We have some experts on here, so hopefully they’ll pipe in. Just 1.5 cents here-

If you’re ever suction bogged in mud, there is no such thing as too much pulling power. It’s not just weight. It’s also resistance including whether to pull forward, you have to force your truck up and over a barrier....or plow through muck that doesn’t like to be forced out of the way.

If you’re ever in a position where you need to winch several vehicles back to back... or winch for a long distance.... No such thing as too much power to spare in helping it not overheat.

Ya, you can use a snatch block to double power, but that also cuts reach down, adds time and complexity, and cuts speed in half. Winches running at maximum pull will already be moving slowly.

Weight savings between a 10k and a 12k are often nearly nil. Warn zeons, for example, are identically sized between 10 and 12k.

The “it’s enough” thought is fine, but Personally, when you desperately need a winch, its also helpful to have more confidence the strain is less likely to push my winch beyond its limits. The extra ton+ force isn’t everything, but staying below failure might be.

Experts can chime in to clarify where I’m off. Seriously. Please do. I’m learning as I go like everyone else.

PS. FWIW, I’ve been running the Zeon 12S Platinum and it’s been flawless over many pills from quick and light to full heavy pull over the last 4+ years. Most uses aren’t at the limit. But when they get close, umph to spare is nice.

 

[Willy beamin]

Go 12k and dont look back

 

[TLC2013]

There is some good information above, not much to add as they covered it well @WesSiler and @Markuson

In my experience I have been happy to have all 12K lbs pulling capacity. The only time that I absolutely needed a winch with no other options for recovery I was glad to have that extra power.
It is essential as the pulls get longer in distance.

After busting my driver side front axle and losing 4 wheel drive it was a life saver to get back to safety. Was able to do a nearly 90 degree pull to keep me on the trail and from sliding off a mountain side. Effortlessly dragged/slid me with the brake pedal depressed and got me over an obstacle and back on the trail.
Also a wireless remote is super handy and makes things much easier.

 

[WesSiler]

Somewhat relevant: I just visited the Warn site, and saw this thing: Hub Wireless Control | WARN Industries

Wireless control (via smartphone) for any Warn winch. Gonna get one for both the old 4Runner and my Ranger.

 

[4wheelgreg]

Toyota says our 200 LC are around 5800 # stock , TJM front , skid plates , side bars , Slee rear bumper , roof rack and all the little stuff adds weight . I would think all said and done 7500 +
That suburban in my profile tipped the scales at 11000 lbs ... I had 16.5 warn
I think the warn zeon 12 platinum would be a good choice it is a medium class winch , has better gears and control relays than the VR .
I have had the 9.5 on a 4unner and Tacoma was great for those trucks but they are a lighter class truck compared to the 200 Series .

 

[OSS]

based on extensive use of an old Warn 10K winch used on a fully loaded FJ60 - to its limits beyond anything Warn would recommend, with dual batteries -- The 10k winch was barely up to the task for my usage - using double snatch blocks.
I was going to replace it with the 16.5ti.
A 9.5K winch is too small for a 200 in my opinion.
The M12000 is a 30+ year old design. I had the now discontinued M10000 which was it's smaller brother and its not much smaller than that winch. Whatever winch you go with, make sure it has overheat protection. My vote: The 16.5ti ...or a case of snatch blocks, shackles and long lengths of extension cable

 

[Markuson]

based on extensive use of an old Warn 10K winch used on a fully loaded FJ60 - to its limits beyond anything Warn would recommend, with dual batteries -- The 10k winch was barely up to the task for my usage - using double snatch blocks.
I was going to replace it with the 16.5ti.
A 9.5K winch is too small for a 200 in my opinion.
The M12000 is a 30+ year old design. I had the now discontinued M10000 which was it's smaller brother and its not much smaller than that winch. Whatever winch you go with, make sure it has overheat protection. My vote: The 16.5ti ...or a case of snatch blocks, shackles and long lengths of extension cable

??

Are you sure you didn’t just get a lemon? That seems over-the-top bad.

 

[4wheelgreg]

Also mount configuration , most M10000 and up have a feet forward position . ARB has that design with there bumpers that why guys can run that weight winch .
I’m pretty surprised that the Zeon 12000 is a conventional up right position with forward fairlead .

 

[linuxgod]

Toyota says our 200 LC are around 5800 # stock , TJM front , skid plates , side bars , Slee rear bumper , roof rack and all the little stuff adds weight . I would think all said and done 7500 +
That suburban in my profile tipped the scales at 11000 lbs ... I had 16.5 warn
I think the warn zeon 12 platinum would be a good choice it is a medium class winch , has better gears and control relays than the VR .
I have had the 9.5 on a 4unner and Tacoma was great for those trucks but they are a lighter class truck compared to the 200 Series .

Yep. Roof rack, sliders, front bumper+winch, family of 5, large dog, and cooler and I'm up to about 7300#, give or take. Add skids, a rear bumper, drawers, etc and it's easy to approach 4 tons.

I know a 9.5 can handle multiple LCs. I've seen the "to hell and back" thread. But "can" vs "should"...

The VR12S was a cost consideration for me. I use my winch an average of once per year, maybe. The VR12S was "light weight" (about 65# with synthetic rope, IIRC) and was about half the cost of Warn's top of the line models. I tend to explore/offroad with the family a lot, but not necessarily with other people, so having recovery gear is important to me. If I was planning to use it regularly I would've opted for a more expensive Warn model...

 

[4wheelgreg]

I was limited in choices going with the TJM bumper the winch choices limited me to a up right position , The 12 Zeon platinum seems like a great winch but is is not a full size winch but is better water proof than the M12 or 9.5 .
Not sure what winch I’m going to end up with .
When it comes to size the M10+ full size dwarfs the internals of the Zeon

 

[linuxgod]

It's all a trade-off.

M12000 is 136# with steel line and $2300 retail

Zeon 12 is 94# and $1400 retail

VR12 is 89# (72# with synthetic rope) and is $750 retail

9.5xp is 68# and $1900 retail

So yeah bigger and beefier, but heavier too. If you're using it regularly, M12000 or 16.5ti all the way.

To the original question, I would go M12000 over 9.5xp because the rule of thumb is 1.5x weight so unless you're unbuilt and unladen you're going to exceed the intended rating of the 9.5xp.

I can't say what will fit in a TJM T13. Email TJM and Warn and ask?

 

[4wheelgreg]

The middle picture is the Zeon Platinum planetary uses higher strength steel and better contact controller . Also better water proof .

 

[Markuson]

Also mount configuration , most M10000 and up have a feet forward position . ARB has that design with there bumpers that why guys can run that weight winch .
I’m pretty surprised that the Zeon 12000 is a conventional up right position with forward fairlead .
View attachment 2514997

The zeon can be rotated. Just have to move the control box and rotate the position of the clutch to the side you need.

For Platinum (wireless, no clutch lever to deal with)... There’s an extra advantage to moving the controller off of the winch because the top box is where the wireless
antenna is, and you don’t want that below water or mud for receiving signal. The range on the setup is insanely good, but not if the antenna is under mud/water It also puts the winch/wireless standby-power switch in easy reach with its power light within easy view. Turning that switch off makes it stop tending its wireless connection with your remote.

Has worked well on mine. If you want the wireless receiver still higher, you can also add a wireless receiver extension to put its antenna under the hood, etc.

 

[bwell]

Having used an M15000 extensively for years. As stated before they are designed and recommended with the four mounting feet forward. They do still have mounting holes cast into them for feet down installations so that you can use a fair lead as with the lighter series winches.

I have actually been debating about seeing if mine will fit in my LX570 that has a T13 installed. Just don't know that I can bring myself too because they are so heavy. If it even fits in the cradle.

 

[4wheelgreg]

Thanks for all the great reply’s ... Crazy thing I’m in my office was just found a local guy who has a brand new 9.5 xp but not synthetic , he bought it from Morris Off-road , never used it and get it for 800
There going for 1300 on Amazon , I can grab it for $800 then have to buy a rope , I have a rope fairlead .
Still down to 9.5 very dependable but a little under rated or spend the extra 1200 more than the $800 9.5 local find .

 

[fjfar80]

I just put (well finishing the install today) a 9.5XPS in a Trail Tailor hidden winch mount on my 2015 LX570. I also am an instructor for 7P Overland and Overland Expo. I teach a lot of winching classes. That's not to say I am expert, far from it, just giving you my advice and some light background.

While you will hear a 1.5GVWR number thrown around a lot it really depends on the type of wheeling you do, the terrain, etc. Most winch scenarios do not result in a 100% vehicle weight load on the winch, this is because of those awesome things called wheels and tires. So, really what you are looking at is rolling weight. This is why you see strong men pull trucks and teams of people pull airplanes. Think of your winch in the same manner...what you need to take into consideration is weight, rolling resistance, etc. If your truck is sunk in 3 feet of mud, that's not just vehicle weight and rolling resistance, but...now you are factoring in suction strength of the mud. Likewise, if you are on a rocky hill and winching up that hill, it's not a 100% vehicle load on the winch, because part of the weight of the vehicle is still being born by the tires, realistically the only time you would have 100% vehicle winch is on a pure vertical pull. So, having said all of that...there is no one answer.

In addition, having a recovery ring or a snatch block (or two) allows you to create a pulley system and increase the effective pulling power of your winch through mechanical advantage. This also decreases the workload of your winch. I generally always use a recovery ring to a hard point and then loop back to the vehicle. This gives me a theoretical 2:1 mechanical advantage and decreases the force on the winch by half - albeit in practice it's probably a little less than 50% after you take into consideration resistance, etc.

So, my recommendation would be that unless you are planning on doing vertical pulls or deep mud pulls, a 9.5XPS should be fine. Add a recovery ring, soft shackle, and tree strap and you are setting yourself up for success. Add in another recovery ring and there isn't anything you wouldn't be ready for.

Factor this in as well, a recovery ring, soft shackle, and a tree strap will be less than the difference between the M12000S and the 9.5XPS.

Link for reference and video embedded video on Recovery Ring use:

The 7P Recovery Ring

7P Overland has developed a great recovery system that can replace heavy, awkward, and often dangerous pulleys and snatch blocks. The 7P Overland Recovery Ring system (consisting of a lightweight ring and soft shackle) is a simple design optimized for today's synthetic winch lines. Designed to...

www.farageprecision.com

- Mark

 

[Markuson]

So, my recommendation would be that unless you are planning on doing vertical pulls or deep mud pulls, a 9.5XPS should be fine.

- Mark

Good points that echo in my first post re suction, etc. **I’m sure I would have a lot to learn from you** on winching techniques. I only differ a little in selecting pull capacity. My experience/thinking is...people aren’t necessarily “planning on” deep mud pulls. But they happen.

Here’s my front driver tire where I was extremely lucky to find three strangers in the middle of the night before my front bumper/winch install:
Nastiest mud I’ve ever seen. Like semi-dried cement/clay...

High-centers happen too, where the rolling wheels no longer help with resistance...or massive hang-ups where the only alternative might be scraping up and over.

Like one that exited here and did this:

When things happen, I like having upped my chances from “should be fine,” to... “The best chance to get past the worst-case.” For me, I think it’s worth the extra pounds and up-front cost for a more powerful tool.

When wheeling alone as I often do... a single *paid* recovery serrvice team not only means a huge trip bummer, but will cost way more than any winch upgrade.

What do you think?