Told birfields and pinion seal are shot???

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vtcruiser60

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I tend to monitor the 60 series, so my apologies for stepping into a recent post, but my question is kind of different. I appreciate your help.

I share a FJ80 and am primarily responsible for maintenance. The 92 FJ80 has 128k. When engaging the transmission, there is a noticeable clunk which occasionally appears when making a sharp turn (don't know left or right). Been this way for 3.5 years, no change. My mom took the vehicle to the stealership and was quoted $2100 for new birfields (parts and install), and a new driveshaft pinion seal ($225 part and install). I know that this is wicked high....

Now, my question....could a bent/warped driveshaft be causing the birfield problem and recurrent pinion seal failure?

Why, you may ask? I had the pinion seal replaced 2 years ago. Grease was spewing to the floorboards. The inner axle oil seal/bearings were repacked as well. So, I am a little more than annoyed with the idea that the pinion seal is shot again, and the birfields need replacing.

This is a camp truck. So...walk me through the major points and where I should look for more infor before sprinting to retrieve the rig from the stealership........
 
80 series Birfs are speeeensive!

CruiserDan can give you a great deal on parts, but your still probably looking at $450-$600 a PIECE for Birfs. There are cheaper aftermarket Birfs available, but very respectable members of the list say they are not as good as factory, and don't last with the constant wear of full time 4WD.

The dealer full front axle service (birf repack, I don't know if it includes knuckle/trunion bearings which should be done at the same time) is about $1000-$1500 in labor itself. It's a big job. You can obviously do it yourself for a lot less.
Standard repack should be done every 60k, give or take.

If my wesite is actually working (grrr...) I have a listing of parts for the front axle service here:www.iluvrocks.com

If the front is clicking in tight turns (easier to hear when going slow) on pavement, you've potentialy got bad birfs. Sometimes they don't click until you lock the center dif in the same situation. Sometime only one clicks. Sometimes only one direction. etc.

I know nothing about pinion seals other than my rear is leaking but I'm scared to death to change it myself as I've heard too many comments about doing it exactly right or it fails quickly.

All of these are well hashed topics and you can find a bunch of info by searching.


Good luck!
 
Grab the truck from the dealership immediately, and call before driving there to cancel this. That's insane. Unless this thing's been beat on seriously with large tires and heavy offroading there's no way your birfields are shot at only 128k. Those are the same axles/birfs as the much more powerful later 80s, PLUS the models with front lockers that can stress birfs. With your less powerful engine and lack of lockers they'll last forever even with moderate care.

You didn't help much with your "clunk" sound to describe it. I consider clunk a single sound. Birfs make a repeated muffled metallic popping sound when they need lube. I'll guess here that if this is the sound, it happens when you turn left most often and you hear it from the left front. Correct? All you need is a days work at home to repack it.

As for the pinion, sounds like the one they put in there was not installed correctly for it to last less than 2 years. They're not rocket science to replace at home.

I'd go get the truck ASAP.

DougM
 
Hey fellas...thanks.

I share your concerns about the dealership. The parts for OE birfields are expensive, as is the labor. I am not impressed with their quotes. Fortunately, my mom knew as much and told me to phone the service manager in NY after she got the list of "necessary repair items".

I'll keep you posted. -
 
Sorry forgot to add...

That clunking sound appears when shifting from park to drive or reverse, never once in motion. The clicking sound is mild and apparent when turning. I can't recall if it is present when turning r or l, or more pronounced with either type of turn.

Is there a consensus here on when birfields can fail? 125k seems ok for CV joints in general. I am thinking this is especially true on a 1992 vehicle, regardless if it is a land cruiser or not.
 
vt,
go get the truck now@!!!!!
the pinion is doabel for sure and the birfs are probably worn but not ready to throw in the scrap pile yet. I would be willing to bet that if you did a full birfield service with bearings and tear down and reassembly of the birfs the noise will diminish if not dissapear. Ya gotta think about what you expect from the truck. if it goes camping once in a while and has stock size tires then chances are you will not break the birfs ever with the 3FE (mighty as it is)
as to the clunk this could be the infamous a442 clunk that we all have or it could be the pinion seal. I would start with lubing (with careful notes taken from the recent post on the rear drive line slip yoke) the drive lines and i bet it will diminish at least.
unless your mom has money to burn in wich case leave it there so they can screw up another pinnion seal
Dave
 
Well, if it were my truck and the birfield is really worn than I sure wouldn't want to pay the dealer labor rates to service the front axle and reinstall a worn birfield. It wouldn't be much fun to have to pay for two front axle services to deal with the same worn birfield.
 
I shouldn't have even picked up the damn phone. I knew selling this rig to my mom was going to be a mistake.

Alright, here is the update....the upshot is that my mom wants to have the birfields replaced at the dealer (her money). She is afraid of being stranded. Remember fear sells better than reason.

I spoke at length with the service manager and asked him to tell me why the birfields were shot. He explained that the both the clicking and the clunk are due to the birfields being worn. He didn't say that the splines were worn, but I don't know what else would do it. I was pleased with this answer in some ways, because when the clunk persists it is their ass. I asked him to save the birfields for me ( I want spares, and I also want to snap some pictures for the tech section). I did convince her to not pay for the pinion seal replacement and the other "items" they said were necessary.

PHAEDRUS.....When we did a full axle service two years ago, the noise did diminish but it did not go away. The fluids are all topped up and I did extend my breather up the fire wall, cleaning out the check valve as I went along. I didn't want a $5 failure to cost me another $750 in a bearing repack and diff service. So, I do think the birfs are worn....not to the point of failure, but worn.

I am still wondering if a bent or damaged driveshaft can cause a failed pinion seal? I have to believe it may be cheaper to replace the driveshaft rather than fix a pinion seal every two years. What do you guys think about this idea and question? Has anyone had to replace these things twice in such a short amount of time?

I am appreciative of your replies......
 
Let's take this one at time.

diminishing the clunk when shifting gears may be as simple as adjusting the throttle cable. That made a big difference to the same problem on my brother's 91. About a 2 minute job. seriously. if you want instructions post back and I will tell you how.

next, I woudl try new fluids. Drain the tranny (don't flush unless the flush machine uses the trucks own pump) and the transfer case fluids and replace the fluids (ATF and diff oil respectively)and make sure the level is right when hot and cold on the tranny. see if that helps. take note of what the fluid looks like when it comes out.

Next, lube the drive shaft spider/u joints (4 zircs) but not the drive shaft itself. (There are threads here on drive shaft clunks that explain why not to lube the drive shaft using the zircs). Try to lift and move each end of the drive shafts and see if you have any play in the u-joints.

Also, check the phase alignment of the u-joints to each other at either end of the drive shaft. the U shaped arms at either end should be lined up with each other for the rear drive shaft (e.g., "--" and "--") and perpendicular for the front drive shaft (eg, "I" and "--"). Based on a recent thread here I just checked mine and they were wrong for the front. This can cause vibration. Since your pinion shaft was done, maybe they misaligned your front drive shaft when they reassembled. Apoparently "out of phase" is counter-intuitive to your average wrench.

so far this is Mr. Lube knucklehead territory. You have spent about 15 minutes of your life and $25 at mr lube on good preventative maintenance.

next you want to drop the drive shafts, separate the drive shafts into its two parts, lube the splines where they join and clean out the old grease in the part that receives the splines. This requires unbolting the diff ends of both driveshafts (8 bolts). There are more instructions in the other threads I mentioned on how to do this. Optionally, a mechanic should be willing to do it for well under $100. It is not a lot of work and it should be done at your mileage to allow proper expansion of the shafts and avoid loading problems with the diffs and t-case.

If none of this worked then I guess I would start to consider the front pinion as the problem as wlel as every part in the system but I would not be so certain the pinion is leaking or that a new seal will fix the problem. lots of stuff ends up dripping onto it, especially with a 3FE with 128k over top of it. I would monitor the pinion seal closely and clean it regularly until I was sure it was failing and that what I was seeing was not motor oil or some other fluid from above or nearby.

Even if the pinion seal is leaking you might get away with just changing the diff oil in the axle (mr lube again) and unplugging the diff breather hose. that's a little rubber hose sticking out of a brass fitting on top of the driver's side of the axle. There is a write up in tech section here on how to extend this hose. You don't need to extend it but do clean it because if it blocks up it can pressurize the axle housing causing diff oil to seek to escape elsewhere. This is a bit of a gamble mind you, but still good preventative maintenance if it doesn't work.

As for the birfields, a single clunk does not necessarily sound like a birfield problem as others have already said. here is a test. point truck uphill. turn steering wheel full lock. Gun it to complete complete a 90 degree turn. Turn steering wheel full lock the otherway. Gun it again. Then try turning 90 degrees uphill at 20 mph both ways. This puts maximum stress on the birfs. Repeat any test if you get a click or clunk. If you hear a consistent clunking noise coming from either wheel at any time during these tests you probably have a birf issue, but it should be more like a series of pops. If all you get is an occasional clunk it might be a very minor birf issue but I would also suspect some other part of the suspension. Take it to a good alignment shop and ask them if they can see what's wrong.

Even if you do get popping from the birfs, it does not mean they need replacing. They can run for years with a pop or clunk. You said the inner axle seals were replaced a few years back. That means they repacked your birfields with grease but you don't mention why. If a repack is delayed too late the birfs are damaged and continue to clunk after the repack. However they often don't seem to get worse once they get fresh grease so unless you are using oversized tires or rock crawling you are still unlikely to break the birf and will get fair warning in terms of progressively more clunking before you do.

of course, they might have screwed up when they redid the axles seal (ask me how I know). There is no way to know for sure but you can take a look at the exterior surface of your knuckle housing (the bowl shaped thing on the inside of the wheel housing). if it is bone dry or is covered with runny stuff (e.g., grease mixed with diff oil) then that is a sign of no grease in the axle housing or optionally a failed inner axle seal. Don't prejudge what causes the latter. The inner oil seals can wear a groove in the inner axle that leads to quicker failures after replacement.
 
Semlin and others.

Thanks so much for the replies. This is why I love this board. The advice is sound.
 

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