TJM T3 Classique

[Greg B]

Can any of you guys that have the TJM T3C tell me how the bumper mounts to the frame of a 100? Specifically, does it have accordian-style sections in the mounting area that make it air bag compliant? Do any of you have pics of the bumper before it was mounted or pics of the mounting area after it is mounted? I'm very curious how this looks on the TJM T3C.

 

[Campfire]

Call SleeOffroad
They stock them and can answer all your questions. I called the other day on the same bumper. They have them in stock.
1-888-4X4Slee
Tel +1(303)278-8287
Fax +1(303)278-7182

700 Pine Ridge Road
Unit 2
GOlden CO 80403

http://www.sleeoffroad.com

 

[spressomon]

Can any of you guys that have the TJM T3C tell me how the bumper mounts to the frame of a 100? Specifically, does it have accordian-style sections in the mounting area that make it air bag compliant? Do any of you have pics of the bumper before it was mounted or pics of the mounting area after it is mounted? I'm very curious how this looks on the TJM T3C.

No accordion style anything...the TJM T3C mounts directly to the frame. I will take some pics for you when I get home. Unfortunately I do not have pics without the any front bumper installed. After having the T3C I am not so sure I would do it again. The factory fog lamp mount is a totally jury rigged affair and TJM has stated a max 9K winch.

 

[spressomon]

Greg...You have posed an interesting question that maybe only TJM could answer correctly related to how & when the airbag is deployed utilizing their bumper on the LC.

The pic is looking at the mount plate (the bumper mount plate mounts to the frame in two locations (per side): 1 at the end of the frame and 1 at the hook location.

 

[turboale]

I wouldn't mount a bumper I take wheeling any other way.... Isn't that the point of these aftermarket bumpers, or am I missing something?


Accidently did this to a tree with my old T-15 and it hit right on the blinker and it didn't get a single scratch or tweak.

 

[tabraha]

I wish they'd fit the LX. TJM advised me that they didn't.

edited for spelling

 

[Greg B]

I wouldn't mount a bumper I take wheeling any other way.... Isn't that the point of these aftermarket bumpers, or am I missing something?

I wouldn't either, but in order to be air bag compliant on newer vehicles, ARB uses an accordian style mount that gives some when hit. This lowers the amount of energy on impact causing the air bags to deploy like on a stock bumper. If you have a solid mounting point without this accordian section, the energy passes right on through the bumper and the air bag sensors can be triggered at a lower speed.

Some companies, apparently like TJM, use solid mounts and state that their bumper are for off-road purposes only to avoid litigation issues. ARB probably spends quite a bit of money in order to crash test their bumpers.

It's all in what you're looking for. Some prefer air bag compatability. I personally would like a more stout method of mounting the bumper. Before I go to Moab in May, I'll probably cut out the accordian section of my ARB and weld in some solid plates to make it more rigid.

 

[Greg B]

No accordion style anything...the TJM T3C mounts directly to the frame. I will take some pics for you when I get home. Unfortunately I do not have pics without the any front bumper installed. After having the T3C I am not so sure I would do it again. The factory fog lamp mount is a totally jury rigged affair and TJM has stated a max 9K winch.

Spresso,
Thanks for the pic. Interesting, it sounds like there are things you don't like about yours either. The T3C is definitely stronger than the ARB I have since it bolts to the frame with no accordian mounts.

The ARB has a better frame mount as it is boxed around the frame and bolts up with a vertical bolt in addition to the ones going through the sides and where the hooks mount. This would make it stronger than the T3C. But, what screws it up is when they put the accordian mounts out past that point between the frame and the bumper.

After seeing a pic of the T3C, I don't really like the way it mounts either because its not boxed in around the frame. But, I like it better than the ARB at this point.

What we really need is someone to build a suitable front bumper that gives a rugged mounting system, better approach angle, and an area to hold a big winch like a Superwinch Husky 10. Oh yeah, it needs to look good too. I don't ask for much do I?

 

[spressomon]

Spresso,
Thanks for the pic. Interesting, it sounds like there are things you don't like about yours either. The T3C is definitely stronger than the ARB I have since it bolts to the frame with no accordian mounts.

The ARB has a better frame mount as it is boxed around the frame and bolts up with a vertical bolt in addition to the ones going through the sides and where the hooks mount. This would make it stronger than the T3C. But, what screws it up is when they put the accordian mounts out past that point between the frame and the bumper.

After seeing a pic of the T3C, I don't really like the way it mounts either because its not boxed in around the frame. But, I like it better than the ARB at this point.

What we really need is someone to build a suitable front bumper that gives a rugged mounting system, better approach angle, and an area to hold a big winch like a Superwinch Husky 10. Oh yeah, it needs to look good too. I don't ask for much do I?

Yea...I'm pretty picky about this stuff. I like the bumper OK. It is lighter than the ARB and I like the fact the winch mounts to a plate that mounts to the frame.
As I understand the winch, on the ARB, bolts to the bumper. My complaints are: #1 The factory fog lamps mount in such a jury-rigged way...and they tend to rattle. You can get around it with some creative mods...I just think TJM should have taken care of that. #2 Like you I would like to run a slightly larger winch than this bumper will allow (only rated to 9K winch).

I do like the look of this bumper and the approach angles; the price is right; it has solid wings that are integral to the bumper; less mass to slug around all the time.

 

[Bongani]

Note that this is for a 105 series but there should be similiarities.


I acquired a TJM winchbar 2nd hand this week. Bar is now almost a 1 year old of which it spend 364 days hanging in a garage in Gordonsbay. The TJM bars are not commonly seen (at least not the new ones) and is a tad expensive new but do have some lovely features in that it is not as heavy as the ARB nor does it protrude so far in front of the vehicle. There was unfortunately no jacking points on this bar.

I could not get a slot at the fitment centre soon enough (it had to get on) and decided to fit it myself, well I was partly successful...


Stock standard bumper.

Here the plastic bumper has been removed. (lots of screws) The crush bar is still visible. This bar is attached with 4 bolts (two from the top and two from the bottom) to the the chassis member.

Crush bar is gone.

I found that the one screw was only half way in. Sticking out almost 20mm and was stripped. This was a mayor show stopper in the fitment. I can only assume that the vehicle had a bb on before that was removed before I got it.

I decided to take a drive to SafariCentre where I should be able to get the bolt. Just in case, I threw the bb in the back as well.


It turned out that most of the stuff they had to fit did not fit a Pajero so they were doing nothing. Immediately I handed over the task of fitment to them while I took the more prominent role as the photographer. In this photo the two mounting brackets have been secured. Each bracket gets secured with 4 screws (two from the crushbar and two screws into the side) . No drilling is required. This is truely bolt on. The exisiting recovery points remains.



Here the guys does a test fit. Any inaccuracy gets sorted with a rubber mallet.

The bb also has build in flicker lights and park lights. Here it is been wired in.

Tadaaaaaaa... the final result. Excellent approach angle, close to the body of the vehicle. Can take a winch (unlikely that I will get one). Fitment positions for spots and antenna and most of all... it looks right.

The wheel arch measurement was taken before and after the fitment and the difference is hardly measureable.

Lessons Learned.
Buying second hand can be a bargain. I saved well over R5000.
Safari Centre has a great fitment team
I have two number 18 sockets and no nr19 socket in my toolset.

 

[Greg B]

Yea...I'm pretty picky about this stuff. I like the bumper OK. It is lighter than the ARB and I like the fact the winch mounts to a plate that mounts to the frame.
As I understand the winch, on the ARB, bolts to the bumper. My complaints are: #1 The factory fog lamps mount in such a jury-rigged way...and they tend to rattle. You can get around it with some creative mods...I just think TJM should have taken care of that. #2 Like you I would like to run a slightly larger winch than this bumper will allow (only rated to 9K winch).

I do like the look of this bumper and the approach angles; the price is right; it has solid wings that are integral to the bumper; less mass to slug around all the time.

I am pretty picky too. I'm going to stick with the ARB until someone puts out the type of bumper that I really want. At some point, I may just take the winch I want to a fabricator and have something custom built.

I'm not sure about other models of 100 ARB's, but mine uses a separate winch mount. It doesn't mount to the bumper. The only good thing I like about this bumper mounting system is that the frame mount holds the winch and is bolted very securely to the frame. The frame mounts are very beefy boxed steel. The accordian mounts for the bumper are forward of the winch mount section. These are what have to go. The winch mounts to the square plate in the middle. See pic:

 

[dclee]

Of course, then there are those of us who carry families around in our trucks who like the ARB mounts because they do not change the crush rate of the bumper, and thus they also do not change the triggering behavior of the airbags.

 

[Greg B]

Of course, then there are those of us who carry families around in our trucks who like the ARB mounts because they do not change the crush rate of the bumper, and thus they also do not change the triggering behavior of the airbags.

That's great if you want that. I also carry my family around in my 100. That doesn't mean I want a bumper that shifts around on the front of my 100 every time it bumps something off-road. If that's what you want, great, ARB makes one for you with no modifications. At this point, the ARB is not much more than a brush bar with a winch mount when it takes a hit off-road (read glorified damage multiplier).

Also, no one has shown what the difference in the "triggering behavior" between a bumper with crush cans and one without is. TJM doesn't offer the crush cans on their bumper. Does their's affect the air bags differently than a stock bumper or ARB?

I'll take my chances with a stronger bumper and an air bag that may or may not go off any quicker than with a stock bumper. Ask the 80's guys if they're worried about the 80 Series ARB bumper setting off their air bags quicker than stock. Most will say the opposite; that the benefits of the ARB outweigh the air bag issue.

 

[dclee]

That's great if you want that. I also carry my family around in my 100. That doesn't mean I want a bumper that shifts around on the front of my 100 every time it bumps something off-road. If that's what you want, great, ARB makes one for you with no modifications. At this point, the ARB is not much more than a brush bar with a winch mount when it takes a hit off-road (read glorified damage multiplier).

Also, no one has shown what the difference in the "triggering behavior" between a bumper with crush cans and one without is. TJM doesn't offer the crush cans on their bumper. Does their's affect the air bags differently than a stock bumper or ARB?

I'll take my chances with a stronger bumper and an air bag that may or may not go off any quicker than with a stock bumper. Ask the 80's guys if they're worried about the 80 Series ARB bumper setting off their air bags quicker than stock. Most will say the opposite; that the benefits of the ARB outweigh the air bag issue.

Yeah, actually that is what I want. I don't plan on bashing this one around, that's why I have an 80. Different strokes and all...

FWIW, I don't pretend to understand more about crash dynamics than the Toyota and ARB engineers who designed these items. If the crush pulse is set up a certain way, I'm not going to go changing it because I want some mythical "offroad" protection. For my uses (animal strikes) the bar is fine. However, I do take exception to the "damage multiplier" comment. If it can take hitting a 400 pound kangaroo at 60 mph without damage, that's good enough for me. I'm not rock-crawling with this thing, or even hitting 1000 km of corrugations. If ultimate offroad strength is your goal, you shouldn't have bought a 100 to begin with. The front of the 100 frame is set up with "crush cans" right off the Araco assemblyline, so you can't get away from them no matter what bumper you buy. That's because a body on frame truck will never be as safe as a unibody design with crumple zones unless you can design in something similar on the frame. The idea is to direct crash forces away from the passenger compartment. With a traditional body on frame, there is very little room to create such zones, which is why this design has such higher rates of injury to passengers. Those forces cannot be dissipated by the frame because it is so strong, so where is the weakness, and where does the destructive energy end up? Right where you and your family are sitting. Having a lot of steel up front is a good thing, but IMHO it doesn't outweigh the decades of advancement in crash safety technology since Mercedes-Benz patented the crumple zone in 1951. Bottom line, you already have "crush cans" built into the front of the frame of your 100.

Obviously, the ultimate in safety would be something like a unibody minivan, but no minivans I know of have low range gears, and more importantly, they're not Land Cruisers...

As for the TJM, it is made of thinner plate steel with different mounts from the ARB. The whole bar will crush, so no corrugated "crush cans" are needed. See the pictures of the Disco at http://www.tjmbullbars.com. Nothing wrong with that design, just a different approach to "airbag compatibility."

BTW, I am one of those 80 guys you mention. Before the 100 we had two 80s, one of which was a `97 with airbags. The only bullbar I contemplated for that one was the TJM, because it was "airbag rated" unlike the ARB. It's a personal choice, and I don't begrudge the multitudes of folks who choose the ARB. Like I said up top, different strokes...

Anyway, that's my $0.02 (mostly),

 

[Greg B]

Yeah, actually that is what I want. I don't plan on bashing this one around, that's why I have an 80. Different strokes and all...

Like I said in my last post, great, they gave you what you want. I didn't say that it was wrong for everyone, I said I don't like and am going to change it for my needs.

FWIW, I don't pretend to understand more about crash dynamics than the Toyota and ARB engineers who designed these items. If the crush pulse is set up a certain way, I'm not going to go changing it because I want some mythical "offroad" protection.

How do you know how much it changes? Do you have any data that says that the accordian mounts on an ARB change this rate? Again, that's fine if you don't want a strong front bumper for off-road purposes. There's nothing "mythical" about what I want. Just keep what you have and you'll have no worries.

For my uses (animal strikes) the bar is fine. However, I do take exception to the "damage multiplier" comment. If it can take hitting a 400 pound kangaroo at 60 mph without damage, that's good enough for me.

How do you know this? Have you ever seen a 100 ARB bar after it hit a 400 pound kangaroo at 60 mph and sustain no damage? Do you really think with the accordian mounts that the bumper didn't budge? Or are you basing this on how ARB's have held up on previous models like the 60 and 80?

I'm not rock-crawling with this thing, or even hitting 1000 km of corrugations. If ultimate offroad strength is your goal, you shouldn't have bought a 100 to begin with.

That's you're opinion, don't try to make it gospel because that's what you want out of the 100. There are a lot of other people out there that use the 100 for exactly that. I do want to go rock-crawling with mine and I believe it can handle it just fine with the right modifications.

The front of the 100 frame is set up with "crush cans" right off the Araco assemblyline, so you can't get away from them no matter what bumper you buy.

No, it doesn't have crush cans on the frame after you remove the stock bumper. It has a boxed frame. Please show me these crush cans you speak of. It has indentations in the frame farther back by the shock mounts. Not even close to the same thing as the accordian mounts out on the ARB mount.

That's because a body on frame truck will never be as safe as a unibody design with crumple zones unless you can design in something similar on the frame. The idea is to direct crash forces away from the passenger compartment. With a traditional body on frame, there is very little room to create such zones, which is why this design has such higher rates of injury to passengers. Those forces cannot be dissipated by the frame because it is so strong, so where is the weakness, and where does the destructive energy end up? Right where you and your family are sitting. Having a lot of steel up front is a good thing, but IMHO it doesn't outweigh the decades of advancement in crash safety technology since Mercedes-Benz patented the crumple zone in 1951. Bottom line, you already have "crush cans" built into the front of the frame of your 100.

Again, show me these "crush cans" you speak of. And for the record, I really don't care about uni-body designs. They have no relevance to this conversation. The accordian mounts do one thing, they absorb some lower speed impact energy so the air-bags don't go off in a crash that they wouldn't go off in with a stock bumper. But, no one has shown what the difference is in terms of speed. In my opinion, the accordian mounts are a "lawyer added" feature. And having a solid front bumper doesn't take away from "decades of advancement in crash safety technology".

Obviously, the ultimate in safety would be something like a unibody minivan, but no minivans I know of have low range gears, and more importantly, they're not Land Cruisers...

Yeah, they're called Jeep Grand Cherokees. Ever see one of them flex off-road? So much so that the doors won't open?

As for the TJM, it is made of thinner plate steel with different mounts from the ARB. The whole bar will crush, so no corrugated "crush cans" are needed. See the pictures of the Disco at http://www.tjmbullbars.com. Nothing wrong with that design, just a different approach to "airbag compatibility."

I don't see anything on their site about how the bar will crush. Can you give me more detail as to what you are referring to?

BTW, I am one of those 80 guys you mention. Before the 100 we had two 80s, one of which was a `97 with airbags. The only bullbar I contemplated for that one was the TJM, because it was "airbag rated" unlike the ARB. It's a personal choice, and I don't begrudge the multitudes of folks who choose the ARB. Like I said up top, different strokes...

And again, that's fine "different strokes" and all. If you want that, great. If you don't plan on taking your 100 off-road, great. But, just because you also have this bumper don't be afraid to discuss its short-comings when used off-road. I too want a very safe vehicle for my family to travel in. I'm just not convinced that the accordian mounts do anything other than create a "damage multiplier" on the front of the 100.

I have first-hand experience with an ARB that had accordian mounts that was fitted on a LR Disco 2. It was not a pretty site. Almost every time I took it off-road it shifted. Once, bad enough that I had to take the bumper off and pound the accordian mounts with a hammer to get the bumper to sit right again. I finally had to weld in some plate steel to keep it from doing this. I will have to do the same thing for the one I have now.

Since this is limited to the 100 series it hasn't shown up that much here yet. In the LR community, this has been an issue for many years on both the Disco and Disco 2 that have ARB air bag compatible bars fitted to them. There is quite a few documented occurrences on the web.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 (mostly),

My point to this whole thread is very simple. The ARB deluxe bar with accordian mounts has a weakness when used off-road. It will bend/shift if it takes a hit from the bottom or sides. If you plan on going off-road with your 100, be aware of this or you will be surprised by the possilbe outcome.

I am looking for rock-solid after-market parts for my 100. ARB provides some really nice equipment for our rigs. That doesn't mean they are flawless. I think there are a lot of people thinking that their ARB bar is super strong like the ones on the previous models of LC's that didn't have the accordian mounts. That isn't the case. As long as they take this into consideration, they won't have any regrets on what they purchase.

 

[dclee]

My point to this whole thread is very simple. The ARB deluxe bar with accordian mounts has a weakness when used off-road. It will bend/shift if it takes a hit from the bottom or sides. If you plan on going off-road with your 100, be aware of this or you will be surprised by the possilbe outcome.

I am looking for rock-solid after-market parts for my 100. ARB provides some really nice equipment for our rigs. That doesn't mean they are flawless. I think there are a lot of people thinking that their ARB bar is super strong like the ones on the previous models of LC's that didn't have the accordian mounts. That isn't the case. As long as they take this into consideration, they won't have any regrets on what they purchase.

I think we can agree on this and save bandwidth. What I disagree with is the assumption that if you get the ARB, you must be somehow misinformed and obviously do not take your truck offroad (and I quote: "If you don't plan on taking your 100 off-road, great."). I am by no means an ARB fanatic. In fact, even their 80 Series bar I would rate as marginally subpar for rock crawling (having bent two of them). But it's all in what you need for your specific purpose. For many who are doing offroad touring (for which the ARB is designed and for which many would argue the 100 is more suited to), the ARB Deluxe is great. Obviously ARB has engineered their bar for a specific purpose (not rock crawling).

BTW, as to the question of "crush cans" on the front of the 100 Series frame, maybe the term "crush zones" is more accurate. As quoted from page 12 of the 1998 sales brochure, the frame has "axial compression-type, energy-absorbing collapsible zones at the tips." First there is the U-shaped piece of plate steel that the bumper crossmember is bolted to, on the front tip of each frame horn. It will collapsed in a frontal impact. Then, if you look at the frame horns forward of the front axle, you will notice numerous triangular-shaped indents in all four corners of the box section, all the way forward to the tips (not just at the shock mounts). Toyota did not spend money to add these indents for cosmetic purposes. In fact, when you step back and look at them, they seem to form an almost accordian-like compression zone...

 

[Greg B]

I think we can agree on this and save bandwidth. What I disagree with is the assumption that if you get the ARB, you must be somehow misinformed and obviously do not take your truck offroad (and I quote: "If you don't plan on taking your 100 off-road, great.").

You can take my comments out of context if you want. My point, which I clearly made in my last post is that for a lot of folks as they are building up their 100's for off-road duty, need to consider the accordian mounts when comtemplating going off-road. If they have considered this, and it still fits their needs, great. If it doesn't, they will be happy to have this information before they make their purchase.

I am by no means an ARB fanatic. In fact, even their 80 Series bar I would rate as marginally subpar for rock crawling (having bent two of them). But it's all in what you need for your specific purpose. For many who are doing offroad touring (for which the ARB is designed and for which many would argue the 100 is more suited to), the ARB Deluxe is great. Obviously ARB has engineered their bar for a specific purpose (not rock crawling).

Let's just agree to disagree on the merits of the 100 and what it was "designed" to do. Different strokes and all...

BTW, as to the question of "crush cans" on the front of the 100 Series frame, maybe the term "crush zones" is more accurate. As quoted from page 12 of the 1998 sales brochure, the frame has "axial compression-type, energy-absorbing collapsible zones at the tips." First there is the U-shaped piece of plate steel that the bumper crossmember is bolted to, on the front tip of each frame horn. It will collapsed in a frontal impact.

This is taken out of play as the ARB mount does not mount to this area. It goes around the end of the frame and bolts farther back on the frame; basically, surrounding this area.

Then, if you look at the frame horns forward of the front axle, you will notice numerous triangular-shaped indents in all four corners of the box section, all the way forward to the tips (not just at the shock mounts). Toyota did not spend money to add these indents for cosmetic purposes. In fact, when you step back and look at them, they seem to form an almost accordian-like compression zone...

While I will agree with you that the area of the frame you are referring to is indeed a "crumple zone" I do not agree with your original point that this area is of the same strength as the accordian mounts on the ARB. You can't really believe that the accordian mounts on the ARB are as strong as the frame of the 100.

Bottom line, the ARB is a nice bumper. For me, it just needs some additional re-inforcement. I'll post up pics when I get it done for those that want to see the difference.

 

[uzj100]

Is the chrome hoop on the t13 removable? I like the bumper but prefer no hoop. Or could the hoop be painted?

Thanks,

uzj100

 

[98LXand99LC]

Is the chrome hoop on the t13 removable? I like the bumper but prefer no hoop. Or could the hoop be painted?

Thanks,

uzj100

You could remove it, but you'd have a couple of holes where the bolts attach. And, the cushions would look very odd without some modification.