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Haha.. brilliant!
Parabolic vs. Multi-Leaf Packs? (10 Viewers)
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Haha.. brilliant!
Had a talk this arvo to one of the other mechanics at work who just recently put a set of parabolics from westralia in his hzj75. He reckoned they've made it a completely different car to drive and even his girlfriend reckons its way better. Guess it depends where you get them from as to how stiff they'll be. The ones my mate put in just had two leaves in each pack and were about $400 a pair
I wonder how much weight difference there is on the back axle of a 75 and a 73/74?
Dunno, seem to recall reading on here that 60 rears are the same as 73 rears? Think 75s would be longer. Still, can't see why they reckon parabolics wouldn't be suitable for middys. Why couldn't you just use longer springs from a different model to help the ride? (60, etc, obviously modifying to suit)
Im forgetting that 75s are a 1 ton vehicle.
The 60 series springs are the same as MWB ,I might ring up and ask if the parabolics are suitable for a 60 series LOL
The 60 series springs are the same as MWB ,I might ring up and ask if the parabolics are suitable for a 60 series LOL
I have an opinion... as a former business owner who was in the business of importing leaf spring suspensions to North America, (does anyone remember Prairie Dog Parts and Belton Suspensions...?) I have some pretty strong opinions on leaf spring suspensions. Starting with that they are all terrible and we should all strive to get rid of them... But, if you must stick with your chariot-era technology, i will offer this advice.
We researched parabolics, along with several brands of springs... Emu, Dobinson, Belton, Iron Man, Terrain Tamer and the HST parabolic springs. We brought one of each kit into our shop, did various side by side comparisons, and installed a kit onto each of our various cruisers to compare ride quality. That, and various negotiations, quality, and minimum order quantities, and we decided on Belton for a number of reasons.
The HST parabolics I had we installed on my HJ61. The ride was very rough, and really bucked in the rear, so we removed the over loaders. After 2 weeks, the springs had sagged into the overloaders and were providing very poor ride. After removing the overloads, they rear end did not have enough spring rate for the weight of the empty truck, and there was no comfort or ride quality to be had. I believe that the HST springs were never fully scragged.
Parabolics seem like a good idea... a slight improvement over standard leaf packs because they have more linear spring rate, and less internal resistance. But in a practical sense, they are weaker, with fewer leaves taking the load, they are impossible to find replacements for as this thread is showing, and the are not actually that much of an improvement over standard leaf springs... a minor improvement at best. Coils, people... that's how modern suspensions are built. Leaf springs are evil.
But, if you have to stick with leaf springs, here's the factors to look at before making a purchase...
1. Spring steel... what is the grade of the spring steel used. North American steel manufacturers do not create as high grade steel as some asian and European manufacturers do, and the protective steel industry duties ensure that local manufacturers in NA can never compete with asian made springs. This is why HST never manufactured in North America... they could not source the proper spring steel.
2. Fully Scragged springs. This is a process of pushing the spring all the way through its range of motion, effectively pre-sagging the spring. Fully scragged springs will not settle like others. The scragging machine for leaf springs is a big expensive device and a lot of manufacturers do not have a leaf spring scragging machine. If they say they have one... ask if it's a coil scragging machine or a leaf spring machine... they are not the same.
3. Shot peened. Shot Peening is a process of treating the surface of the spring to remove any stress points. It's kind of like a balcksmith hammering out a sword to remove any fractures. This will ensure that your springs are not prone to cracking or breaking pre-maturely.
4. Manufacturing quality. Does the manufacturer put inserts into the eyes of the springs to hold the bushings. How well do the eyes wrap into circles. Are the wrap clamps easily removed. Are the center pins trimmed. Are the military wraps tight enough to not rub on the frames. Are the military wraps on both ends or just the pin end? Is the factory following any quality certifications such as ISO,etc.
We had the above nailed with the Belton springs. In the thousands of kits we sold, we never warranted a broken spring! A few broken u-bolts, but that was it. In fact, Belton was so good, that when Emu came out with the Dakar line of springs, it was the Belton factory that manufactured those springs for Emu. That's what eventually led to the demise of Prairie Dog Parts, in case you were wondering... That, and my repentance from evil.
So, my recommendation for those masochistic souls that force leaf springs into their short and brutish lives, go with Emu Dakar springs over HST parabolics, if you must. Very good quality springs, world wide support, and they will do what you expect... which is to leave you disappointed with your suspension, craving a proper coil-over multi-link suspension like a modern day vehicle should have.
We researched parabolics, along with several brands of springs... Emu, Dobinson, Belton, Iron Man, Terrain Tamer and the HST parabolic springs. We brought one of each kit into our shop, did various side by side comparisons, and installed a kit onto each of our various cruisers to compare ride quality. That, and various negotiations, quality, and minimum order quantities, and we decided on Belton for a number of reasons.
The HST parabolics I had we installed on my HJ61. The ride was very rough, and really bucked in the rear, so we removed the over loaders. After 2 weeks, the springs had sagged into the overloaders and were providing very poor ride. After removing the overloads, they rear end did not have enough spring rate for the weight of the empty truck, and there was no comfort or ride quality to be had. I believe that the HST springs were never fully scragged.
Parabolics seem like a good idea... a slight improvement over standard leaf packs because they have more linear spring rate, and less internal resistance. But in a practical sense, they are weaker, with fewer leaves taking the load, they are impossible to find replacements for as this thread is showing, and the are not actually that much of an improvement over standard leaf springs... a minor improvement at best. Coils, people... that's how modern suspensions are built. Leaf springs are evil.
But, if you have to stick with leaf springs, here's the factors to look at before making a purchase...
1. Spring steel... what is the grade of the spring steel used. North American steel manufacturers do not create as high grade steel as some asian and European manufacturers do, and the protective steel industry duties ensure that local manufacturers in NA can never compete with asian made springs. This is why HST never manufactured in North America... they could not source the proper spring steel.
2. Fully Scragged springs. This is a process of pushing the spring all the way through its range of motion, effectively pre-sagging the spring. Fully scragged springs will not settle like others. The scragging machine for leaf springs is a big expensive device and a lot of manufacturers do not have a leaf spring scragging machine. If they say they have one... ask if it's a coil scragging machine or a leaf spring machine... they are not the same.
3. Shot peened. Shot Peening is a process of treating the surface of the spring to remove any stress points. It's kind of like a balcksmith hammering out a sword to remove any fractures. This will ensure that your springs are not prone to cracking or breaking pre-maturely.
4. Manufacturing quality. Does the manufacturer put inserts into the eyes of the springs to hold the bushings. How well do the eyes wrap into circles. Are the wrap clamps easily removed. Are the center pins trimmed. Are the military wraps tight enough to not rub on the frames. Are the military wraps on both ends or just the pin end? Is the factory following any quality certifications such as ISO,etc.
We had the above nailed with the Belton springs. In the thousands of kits we sold, we never warranted a broken spring! A few broken u-bolts, but that was it. In fact, Belton was so good, that when Emu came out with the Dakar line of springs, it was the Belton factory that manufactured those springs for Emu. That's what eventually led to the demise of Prairie Dog Parts, in case you were wondering... That, and my repentance from evil.
So, my recommendation for those masochistic souls that force leaf springs into their short and brutish lives, go with Emu Dakar springs over HST parabolics, if you must. Very good quality springs, world wide support, and they will do what you expect... which is to leave you disappointed with your suspension, craving a proper coil-over multi-link suspension like a modern day vehicle should have.
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a] Very well written.
b] Good information.
c] Now I have to go back and re-research OME against EFS.
d] What are your thoughts on thinner leaves/more leaves per pack?
In Australia, you have a number of options available to you that we never had (and still don't have) in North America. My recommendation of the Emu Dakar springs is biased by my location, where they are really one of very few options, and probably the best option, all-round for North America. Do your own homework.
The idiocy of the leaf spring design is that the main leaf has dichotomous roles... it is your sturdy, unflexing and unwavering link locating your axle both front to back, and side to side, as well as resist the axle torque, all while allowing up and down, as well as longitudinal articulation, while maintaining proper steering caster. Meanwhile, it is also spring, trying to provide predictable, linear, and controlled spring rate. It has to twist to articulate, but it cannot twist because it has to hold the axle side to side.. (Death Wobble, anyone?) To do this with confidence, you want a large, beefy stout, main leaf. But, that is the exact opposite of what provides good ride quality. So, all the serious manufacturers put a military wrap around the main leaf, so that WHEN then main leaf breaks, the second leaf's military wrap jams into your main wrap and might hold the axle in place while you limp home, may God pity your withering soul. In the end, the leaf spring suspension neither holds your axle in place, nor provides a linear nor predictable spring rate.
So, lots of little leaves as in pack for your 3rd+ leaves, sure, a fine idea. Thin and little leaves for your main/military wrap... not if you do any real off-roading.
The idiocy of the leaf spring design is that the main leaf has dichotomous roles... it is your sturdy, unflexing and unwavering link locating your axle both front to back, and side to side, as well as resist the axle torque, all while allowing up and down, as well as longitudinal articulation, while maintaining proper steering caster. Meanwhile, it is also spring, trying to provide predictable, linear, and controlled spring rate. It has to twist to articulate, but it cannot twist because it has to hold the axle side to side.. (Death Wobble, anyone?) To do this with confidence, you want a large, beefy stout, main leaf. But, that is the exact opposite of what provides good ride quality. So, all the serious manufacturers put a military wrap around the main leaf, so that WHEN then main leaf breaks, the second leaf's military wrap jams into your main wrap and might hold the axle in place while you limp home, may God pity your withering soul. In the end, the leaf spring suspension neither holds your axle in place, nor provides a linear nor predictable spring rate.
So, lots of little leaves as in pack for your 3rd+ leaves, sure, a fine idea. Thin and little leaves for your main/military wrap... not if you do any real off-roading.
Why not just buy Belton? Thanks, Mike
You probably can ,but you would have to find out who has painted their name on them in your area.
Beltons never really seemed to be interested in pushing their springs under their own name to the 4wd crowd.
I bought a troopy last week and the PO told me it had ARB Hi lift suspension kit fitted a couple of years ago.
It works quite well,although I havent given it a good work out offroad yet.
Belton is not around anymore
I do like my OME EMUs considering I went from Keep Slant. I keep my MWB slightly over gross weight with all my gear.
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Parabolics mwb 70series
Hi all ,this is my first post but im a long time lurker and i have some info on the paras you are talking about .I purchased a front and rear set for my MWB from Westralia springs and i will agree that they are very thorough when explaining wether they are suitable or not for the MWB ,I personally didnt have a problem with that as most people in 4X4 shops will tell you anything and sell you anything.(my 2c ).As you all know the MWB is a much lighter car than the 60 and the 75 series so you will need to modify the springs other wise it will ride like a hairy goat.This what i did to my springs and it works great and very hard sometimes .1.get front springs and dismantle by opening clips and centre bolts ,cut the no2 leaf in half just after the mounting saddle so you only have the wrap end left,then bolt back together close the clip (1 is plenty) and install .2. get the rear springs and open clip and centre bolt and remove the helper only and reasemble ,on the rear you will not have any clips now but that has never been an issue for me and it gets a regurlar workout ,heaps of flex and good load rating .The only tools i needed was a cutoff saw ,a hammer and a spanner.I personally love it and have had no issues.
Dave.
Hi all ,this is my first post but im a long time lurker and i have some info on the paras you are talking about .I purchased a front and rear set for my MWB from Westralia springs and i will agree that they are very thorough when explaining wether they are suitable or not for the MWB ,I personally didnt have a problem with that as most people in 4X4 shops will tell you anything and sell you anything.(my 2c ).As you all know the MWB is a much lighter car than the 60 and the 75 series so you will need to modify the springs other wise it will ride like a hairy goat.This what i did to my springs and it works great and very hard sometimes .1.get front springs and dismantle by opening clips and centre bolts ,cut the no2 leaf in half just after the mounting saddle so you only have the wrap end left,then bolt back together close the clip (1 is plenty) and install .2. get the rear springs and open clip and centre bolt and remove the helper only and reasemble ,on the rear you will not have any clips now but that has never been an issue for me and it gets a regurlar workout ,heaps of flex and good load rating .The only tools i needed was a cutoff saw ,a hammer and a spanner.I personally love it and have had no issues.
Dave.
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Thanks for the feedback Dave. Got any pics of your springs/rig? Always nice to see another MWB 70.
Just FYI I only had a problem with their attitude - terrible and worst service I've had in a long time.
Just FYI I only had a problem with their attitude - terrible and worst service I've had in a long time.
Their home site says they're doing 4500 tons this year
Hmmmm! See I always relied on getting my info from the local cruiser shops on the "coast" here . When I enquired about a set of Beltons it was mentioned that they were no longer.
My Bad!
They probably no longer have representation in NA. They are huge company in the automotive parts business in SE Asia
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OK. Finally got my new springs in. After all the hassle with parabolics I went with trad. leaves from EFS installed by Redcliffe Springs. I have just driven the car 45km home and am super impressed. Apparently this is the worst it will ever feel until they bed in in 500km or so. I rarely get amazing service so when I do I give the provider a leg-up where possible. This is one of those examples.
Paul at Redcliffe Springs is true blue. He's such a pro and has been installing springs for like 20 years. And he's a nice guy to boot. He just loves working with springs. He owns the business with his wife and they run it from home on the northside of Brisbane. They've got a huge shed out back - super clean too - where Paul does all the work and there's no bull****, no complaints, just great service, good guidance and quality workmanship.
I did all 4 springs [2" over stock], shocks, greasable shackles, pins, dampener, u-bolts etc and I got him to throw in a full set of TRE's while he was under there. All EFS parts bar the TRE's.
He held onto my truck all week whilst I was out of town, arranged a wheel alignment at trade prices, and even dropped me to the train station when I delivered it.
I can't praise them enough and the ride.. brilliant [for leaves]. It's very stable and is about as soft as you can get with unbedded leaves. I'm looking forward to seeing it's suppleness but I won't be too dismayed if it doesn't change a great deal - the ride is very good as it is. And because it was so saggy [the front was on the stops] I gained like 4" and now that PTO deck out front doesn't hinder my approach angle anywhere near as much. The truck is that high.
Plus he drives a new FJ Cruiser. Said he was getting to old for leaves
Anyway, rant and rave over. Need springs? Give him a call for sure.
Paul at Redcliffe Springs is true blue. He's such a pro and has been installing springs for like 20 years. And he's a nice guy to boot. He just loves working with springs. He owns the business with his wife and they run it from home on the northside of Brisbane. They've got a huge shed out back - super clean too - where Paul does all the work and there's no bull****, no complaints, just great service, good guidance and quality workmanship.
I did all 4 springs [2" over stock], shocks, greasable shackles, pins, dampener, u-bolts etc and I got him to throw in a full set of TRE's while he was under there. All EFS parts bar the TRE's.
He held onto my truck all week whilst I was out of town, arranged a wheel alignment at trade prices, and even dropped me to the train station when I delivered it.
I can't praise them enough and the ride.. brilliant [for leaves]. It's very stable and is about as soft as you can get with unbedded leaves. I'm looking forward to seeing it's suppleness but I won't be too dismayed if it doesn't change a great deal - the ride is very good as it is. And because it was so saggy [the front was on the stops] I gained like 4" and now that PTO deck out front doesn't hinder my approach angle anywhere near as much. The truck is that high.
Plus he drives a new FJ Cruiser. Said he was getting to old for leaves
Anyway, rant and rave over. Need springs? Give him a call for sure.
