need some advice as this is a mystery - Wheel came off last night! '00 LX470

[COLandCrusher]

I looked at the AR901s, I think(?) they might need hub-centric rings. If they need rings and you did not use them, bingo, there's your problem.

I am calling Discount now- to see about the Hub Centric rings-They show the space is .030 and too small to need a ring. And I am getting all new lug nuts as well. Pretty sure one wheel will need replaced. The rest appear very good still. I have one quick question about the front wheel bearings. There was some grease in the cap, and they are pretty greased up, just wondering if I can just maybe add a bit more grease to the cap, and housing and reassemble it. Really do not want to repack bearings.

 

[COLandCrusher]

I looked at the AR901s, I think(?) they might need hub-centric rings. If they need rings and you did not use them, bingo, there's your problem.

I am calling Discount now- to see about the Hub Centric rings-They show the space is .030 and too small to need a ring. And I am getting all new lug nuts as well. Pretty sure one wheel will need replaced. The rest appear very good still. I have one quick question about the front wheel bearings. There was some grease in the cap, and they are pretty greased up, just wondering if I can just maybe add a bit more grease to the cap, and housing and reassemble it. Really do not want to repack bearings.

 

[COLandCrusher]

That may only be true if you use the right lug nuts and hubcentric adapters if required. One of the AR notes is to alwasy use long threaded lugs they sell for Toyota and Lexus vehicles so I take that to mean they don't want you to use stock lug nuts.
For a wheel to "fit" the lugs, nuts, offset, hub-diameter must all be looked at as a system.

Sounds like maybe the holes are tapered and the big multi-fit stock lugnut got jammed in the bore rather than bottomed out to clamp the wheel?

Good luck with it, you may want to have the wheels inspected for damage after running loose, sorry, does not sound like a fun deal.

Definitely getting wheels checked. If all goes well, tonight it will be back together and tomorrow the wheels will have been checked

 

[084runnerltd]

I had recently had to my rims powdercoated and bigger tires installed.

I got the truck home and wanted to switch to black lugs....while loosening one of the wheels, I had a one of the bolts shear off. After that debacle I decided to spray paint the lugs while they were on the truck.

 

[gatormark91]

I am calling Discount now- to see about the Hub Centric rings-They show the space is .030 and too small to need a ring. And I am getting all new lug nuts as well. Pretty sure one wheel will need replaced. The rest appear very good still. I have one quick question about the front wheel bearings. There was some grease in the cap, and they are pretty greased up, just wondering if I can just maybe add a bit more grease to the cap, and housing and reassemble it. Really do not want to repack bearings.

Unfortunately, the hub needs to be removed to repack the bearings. Grease in the cap (especially if it is crusty or waxy) might indicate service hasn't been done in a long time. Putting grease under the cap will have no effect, though. Sorry. :-(

 

[gatormark91]

I am calling Discount now- to see about the Hub Centric rings-They show the space is .030 and too small to need a ring. And I am getting all new lug nuts as well. Pretty sure one wheel will need replaced. The rest appear very good still. I have one quick question about the front wheel bearings. There was some grease in the cap, and they are pretty greased up, just wondering if I can just maybe add a bit more grease to the cap, and housing and reassemble it. Really do not want to repack bearings.

.030 is a very tight tolerance, but it is still space. I'd think the hub isn't supporting the wheels, even at that small a gap, the lug nuts are. But I am no expert on that, so would not take my word as gospel, just thinking out loud.

 

[AimCOtaco]

.030 is a very tight tolerance, but it is still space. I'd think the hub isn't supporting the wheels, even at that small a gap, the lug nuts are. But I am no expert on that, so would not take my word as gospel, just thinking out loud.

I would also consider any gap to mean it's running as lug-centric and that hub-centric requires a contact fit.

@COLandCrusher , hope it comes out well in the end. I would have them verify that the lug nuts used are compatible with the wheels being installed, they should have an idea at least. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

 

[Jeepster09]

As far as wheels being loose, I ALWAYS recheck torque after 50/100 miles of driving after the wheels have been off, ESPECIALLY with alloy wheels, they loosen up. My guess would be this is what happened and they gradually got looser from driving. [ Just one wheel could loosen or perhaps all.] MOST better tire shops will tell you to come back and have re-torqued after so many miles.

 

[gatormark91]

I would also consider any gap to mean it's running as lug-centric and that hub-centric requires a contact fit.

@COLandCrusher , hope it comes out well in the end. I would have them verify that the lug nuts used are compatible with the wheels being installed, they should have an idea at least. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

NO amount of checking torque will fix this, and the next time it happens - AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN USING THOSE WHEELS, IMHO - the wheel could come off and KILL you. This is a serious matter involving your life and the life of other people.

Think about it - every time your wheel goes around, 5500+ pounds of LX is trying to force the hub down into that .030 of space. Round and round and round. Eventually, something is going to break from the repetitive stress on the metal. 100 wheel studs aren't that long, and are usually pretty soft (I know, I've cross threaded several). They will give before anything else. Being hub-centric means that a 100 can get by with 5 lugs, because the vehicle weight is supported by the strength of the hub, where as other brands use 6 or 8 lugs on lug-centric wheels, on similar sized vehicles.

If a tire shop told me that .030 did not matter after breaking multiple wheel studs on different corners of the truck, I'd get a new tire store. If you bought the wheels from them, they owe you a refund on EVERYTHING you paid them, as they sold you wheels that were not right for your LX. Call the corporate office and start talking about a lawyer if they won't make you financially whole.

 

[COLandCrusher]

WT(actual)F! !! It is midnight and I am pretty much nowhere on this. I drove around trying to find a nut that would fit the threads on the lug bolts today during work. nobody had the right nut. So I decided to use the lug nuts, with washers as spacers. Here how that went down. The lugnut twisted into the washer every damn time. The very best I could get was about 1/3 rd of the shark tooth part of the new bolts in. But you know what, the lug nut some how managed to flatten the lug bolt threads when I removed them. And get this, the whole truck is in the air. So I thought that pulling the Ebrake would work to lock the hubs - but the rear hubs spun, Then I decided to at least get one wheel done and back down on the ground thinking it would prevent the other side of the axle from spinning, but nope, still spun. So this process was to insert the new lug bolt, put on the washer, and a large spacer bolt, then a vise grip on the hub, with a breaker bar so it stopped at the ground, then tighten down and pull in the lug bolt, then it gets impossible to turn as it gets embedded into the washers and remove vise grip, place on other side of hub so I can now loosen the ridiculously tight lug nut and proceed with all the rear lug bolts. In the end I now have ruined 10 of the lug nuts, and screwed up the threads it seems on every new lug bolt I put on. and they are ALL still sticking out the back not fully pulled into the hub. I did manage to pop in new brake pads, which only took about 15 minutes. but WTH? this was way more time consuming and difficult than it should be. I spent a full 6 more hours out there tonight and now I need to go to Discount tire and buy new lug nuts just to be able to get the wheels back on after I have completed the front. And it looks like I am going to be bringing this thing to the shop to redo the rear lug bolts now! ugh. I am very frustrated. Oh yeah my lug nuts seem a little odd, as they have a longer skinny part on the end that goes into the wheel. So that thinness is why it kept getting stuck in the washer.

 

[AWhelan]

NO amount of checking torque will fix this, and the next time it happens - AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN USING THOSE WHEELS, IMHO - the wheel could come off and KILL you. This is a serious matter involving your life and the life of other people.

Think about it - every time your wheel goes around, 5500+ pounds of LX is trying to force the hub down into that .030 of space. Round and round and round. Eventually, something is going to break from the repetitive stress on the metal. 100 wheel studs aren't that long, and are usually pretty soft (I know, I've cross threaded several). They will give before anything else. Being hub-centric means that a 100 can get by with 5 lugs, because the vehicle weight is supported by the strength of the hub, where as other brands use 6 or 8 lugs on lug-centric wheels, on similar sized vehicles.

If a tire shop told me that .030 did not matter after breaking multiple wheel studs on different corners of the truck, I'd get a new tire store. If you bought the wheels from them, they owe you a refund on EVERYTHING you paid them, as they sold you wheels that were not right for your LX. Call the corporate office and start talking about a lawyer if they won't make you financially whole.

/\ /\ /\ THIS x2 !
Make sure you have the right wheels and nuts!! The toyota nuts are a very specific design in length, taper and diameter. Can we get some pictures of the wheel's, broken studs, lug nuts, etc. it will make it much simpler to see the issue.

I have 20 years experience in the tire and wheel business and I've never see anyone pull wheel studs in by hand, it's always done with a couple washers a normal wheel nut and impact. weather its right or not, I've never seen it done any other way.

Any autoparts place will have a standard wheel nut meant for a steel wheel, just stick a couple of greased washers on the stud and run the wheel nut down upside down with impact until the stud bottoms out, there will be a noticeable change in sound when it does.

 

[AWhelan]

@084runnerltd
You should check the rest of you wheel nuts, That nut looks seriously deformed!!

 

[gatormark91]

/\ /\ /\ THIS x2 !
Make sure you have the right wheels and nuts!! The toyota nuts are a very specific design in length, taper and diameter. Can we get some pictures of the wheel's, broken studs, lug nuts, etc. it will make it much simpler to see the issue.

I have 20 years experience in the tire and wheel business and I've never see anyone pull wheel studs in by hand, it's always done with a couple washers a normal wheel nut and impact. weather its right or not, I've never seen it done any other way.

Any autoparts place will have a standard wheel nut meant for a steel wheel, just stick a couple of greased washers on the stud and run the wheel nut down upside down with impact until the stud bottoms out, there will be a noticeable change in sound when it does.

I'd probably use my impact next time, just to do it faster. This time I did it by hand with my big-ass breaker bar, no problem, fully seated. Torque remained steady checking for a week.

It was my first time changing Cruiser wheel studs and I wanted to go easy on it. BUT - that was just my experience. I might have just been having a good day.

 

[AimCOtaco]

WT(actual)F! !! It is midnight and I am pretty much nowhere on this. I drove around trying to find a nut that would fit the threads on the lug bolts today during work. nobody had the right nut. So I decided to use the lug nuts, with washers as spacers. Here how that went down. The lugnut twisted into the washer every damn time. The very best I could get was about 1/3 rd of the shark tooth part of the new bolts in. But you know what, the lug nut some how managed to flatten the lug bolt threads when I removed them. And get this, the whole truck is in the air. So I thought that pulling the Ebrake would work to lock the hubs - but the rear hubs spun, Then I decided to at least get one wheel done and back down on the ground thinking it would prevent the other side of the axle from spinning, but nope, still spun. So this process was to insert the new lug bolt, put on the washer, and a large spacer bolt, then a vise grip on the hub, with a breaker bar so it stopped at the ground, then tighten down and pull in the lug bolt, then it gets impossible to turn as it gets embedded into the washers and remove vise grip, place on other side of hub so I can now loosen the ridiculously tight lug nut and proceed with all the rear lug bolts. In the end I now have ruined 10 of the lug nuts, and screwed up the threads it seems on every new lug bolt I put on. and they are ALL still sticking out the back not fully pulled into the hub. I did manage to pop in new brake pads, which only took about 15 minutes. but WTH? this was way more time consuming and difficult than it should be. I spent a full 6 more hours out there tonight and now I need to go to Discount tire and buy new lug nuts just to be able to get the wheels back on after I have completed the front. And it looks like I am going to be bringing this thing to the shop to redo the rear lug bolts now! ugh. I am very frustrated. Oh yeah my lug nuts seem a little odd, as they have a longer skinny part on the end that goes into the wheel. So that thinness is why it kept getting stuck in the washer.

I would stop and call american racing and get details on the fit including lug nuts. It's a lot of money to keep throwing down when we don't know whether or not the factory style lug nut is compatible with these wheels. There are many different lug nut specs in use today, the factory nut is designed to work with factory hub-centric alloy or lug-centric steel wheels which is why it has both the washer and the taper. Aftermarket wheel makers build as few designs as possible and then use fit kits which may consist of different lug lengths, nut designs, hubcentric ring adapters, etc, etc. Bottom line is that aftermarket wheel fitment is only valid when the full kit is used which is why I recommend you contact the manufacture directly and get their suggested parts.

Changing lugs is a drag, there are may tricks you can use. I personally would not use impact to install new lugs. For installing your own at home, get a nut that's not necessarily a lug nut if you need to, just a common pattern nut of the correct thread size that doesn't have the taper. Grease that up and you should be able to install them by hand with reasonable torque if the holes are clean.
EDIT: -and get somebody (teenage son) to hold the foot brake for ya, much faster and less frustrating.

 

[AWhelan]

the factory nut is designed to work with factory hub-centric alloy or lug-centric steel wheels which is why it has both the washer and the taper.

Andy
I agree with you except for the above statement.
Alot of the factory toyota nuts I have seen with the washer have too small of a tapered edge (and possibly the wrong angle) to properly hold a steel wheel. it is only tapered for ease of assembly. ( and possibly for the spare... ?? IDK) They drive in and gall the seat of the steel wheel.
A conical nut has a much larger tapered face to hold the steel wheel centred. IE: Lug centric

 

[AimCOtaco]

Andy
I agree with you except for the above statement.
Alot of the factory toyota nuts I have seen with the washer have too small of a tapered edge (and possibly the wrong angle) to properly hold a steel wheel. it is only tapered for ease of assembly. ( and possibly for the spare... ?? IDK) They drive in and gall the seat of the steel wheel.
A conical nut has a much larger tapered face to hold the steel wheel centred. IE: Lug centric

Yeah, that's fair, I've heard it both ways and have not personally mounted a steel wheel with an OEM lug nut.

Main point is that a given lug nut won't be right for all the wheels that may fit on a given vehicle.

 

[gatormark91]

I would stop and call american racing and get details on the fit including lug nuts. It's a lot of money to keep throwing down when we don't know whether or not the factory style lug nut is compatible with these wheels. There are many different lug nut specs in use today, the factory nut is designed to work with factory hub-centric alloy or lug-centric steel wheels which is why it has both the washer and the taper. Aftermarket wheel makers build as few designs as possible and then use fit kits which may consist of different lug lengths, nut designs, hubcentric ring adapters, etc, etc. Bottom line is that aftermarket wheel fitment is only valid when the full kit is used which is why I recommend you contact the manufacture directly and get their suggested parts.

Changing lugs is a drag, there are may tricks you can use. I personally would not use impact to install new lugs. For installing your own at home, get a nut that's not necessarily a lug nut if you need to, just a common pattern nut of the correct thread size that doesn't have the taper. Grease that up and you should be able to install them by hand with reasonable torque if the holes are clean.
EDIT: -and get somebody (teenage son) to hold the foot brake for ya, much faster and less frustrating.

And BTW, the front lower shock mount nut is M14x1.5. which is same size and thread pitch of the wheel studs. It's perfectly beefy enough to pull the studs in (I used a spare one I had), and it's flanged, too.. And you have two of them right on your truck!

Also - When you put the lugs on new studs, or use new lugs on old studs, put them on all the way BY HAND first, with grease or anti-seize to lubricate the threads. New studs or lugs can have some metal shavings in the threads that will gum things up, and you can cross-thread them if you try to force things with a wrench the first time. Spin it on with your fingers, if it gets stuck or you feel any resistance, remove, clean the threads, and do it again, until it goes all the way down, easily. Then the threads are cleaned and lubed. Then you can use an impact on it next time.

 

[AWhelan]

Main point is that a given lug nut won't be right for all the wheels that may fit on a given vehicle.

YEP!! Thats the bottom line

 

[hoser]

Think about it - every time your wheel goes around, 5500+ pounds of LX is trying to force the hub down into that .030 of space. Round and round and round. Eventually, something is going to break from the repetitive stress on the metal. 100 wheel studs aren't that long, and are usually pretty soft (I know, I've cross threaded several). They will give before anything else. Being hub-centric means that a 100 can get by with 5 lugs, because the vehicle weight is supported by the strength of the hub, where as other brands use 6 or 8 lugs on lug-centric wheels, on similar sized vehicles.

IMO, I don't think the hubs support the weight but rather the friction between the two mating surfaces support the weight. Lots of aftermarket wheels use plastic hub centric rings that simply center the wheel on the hub. The plastic rings don't deform over the distance driven. Plus, the hubs are round, what happens when a vehicle locks up the brakes at 60 mph? Or a 2/4 wheel burnout? That's gotta be harsher than carrying the weight of the vehicle.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[COLandCrusher]

Great advice here guys, here's where a fresh day has me. Hit autozone for 2 more new lug bolts. and bought a set of chrome lug nuts M14 1.5. They have a very small taper at the end and I am hoping that will be much better as far as pulling the studs through. The other lug nuts I have were ordered with the AR 901s to fit the Land cruiser with extended threads. Because the end of these lug nuts is so long and skinny and straight they just were not really working/. My plan is to head home here at lunch, try to pull a couple through with the new tapered lug nuts and see if it goes any better, if it's still not working I will do the strut nut method.-thanks Gator. If so, I plan on replacing the ones I already managed to get 1/3 to 1/2 way through with new lug bolts again. Also I was spraying the threads with WD40 - will that suffice or should I use a different lubricant?