need some advice as this is a mystery - Wheel came off last night! '00 LX470

[COLandCrusher]

I'm just really perplexed this morning. Swapped my KMC XD wheels with the Big DuraTrac tires over to the Lexus in Feb this year. At that time, I torqued them all to 97 Pounds.

This is my 17 year old sons truck to drive through school and college. Last night as he came home he asked me to come take a look at it as it felt weird. I drove it about 20 feet and could feel the heavy clunk in the steering, and we noticed the front left wheel really wobbly. My thoughts were Broken axle, or bent rim. As I jacked it up I gave the wheel a small tug and it literally separated from the hub! I could see two bolts had been sheared off, a lug nut was gone, and the other ones appeared loose. I just pulled the wheel off without undoing anything else. The lugnuts were broken off but sort of wedged in the wheel rim. In all, three bolts had snapped. a lug nut was gone, and the last nut was very loose.

Upon further investigation, one of the busted lug bolts had some rust on it, inside the threads, so it clearly busted prior and the water caused the rust. one of them busted that night as we did hear the snap when recalling back. and the last, unknown, no rust, but not as clean, so maybe a few days prior.

I put the wheel back on and tightened the two nuts to the 2 remaining bolts and left the jack under it to be safe. This morning I went out and decided to give all 4 wheels a going over. -left rear had a sheared bolt, and loose nuts. the right front was missing a nut, and the back right was loose. none of the nuts were very tight.

So I purchased a set of 20 Dorman Lexus Bolts for like $65 and have it scheduled at a shop to replace all 20 bolts all the way around. will cost $500+ but the safety is needed. As I said this is the car my son drives, and he drives his sister as well.

Where I am confused is how is it that the 97 pounds of torque either was too much and sheared bolts eventually, but at the same time so loose that some nuts came off and the others loosened?

My only thought is the PO who was a bit of a moron, took it to a shop who overtightened, and stretched the threads over time. Perhaps that is why the torque failed? Advise please.

 

[YardPig]

Maybe someone tried to steal the rims and loosened them off before being scared off. Or someone loosened them as a bad joke or revenge to your son? I hate to think of the negative thoughts but it does happen!

 

[yotasavg]

I've got to be honest... my first thought as well goes toward the possibility of high school shenanigans. I know we used to do some dumb stuff... not like this, but definitely dumb. The possibility is there. Same with attempted theft. Maybe someone liked those aftermarket wheels but just couldn't finish the job?

 

[IronCladLou]

Generally speaking, if a bolt (or nut in this case) doesn't fail during torqueing, it will not fail due to additional external loads as the external loads don't really add much to the preload on the fastener. So...since they didn't fail while you were torqueing, I would suspect shenanigans.

 

[sean2202]

How accurate is your torque wrench, have you ever tested it? I find it a good idea to check the lug nuts every so often as in my personal opinion 5 is not enough there should be 6.

I actually have had lug nuts loosen up on mine and I did a search and found a few threads on loosening lugs but not much.

Lug nuts backing out?

Both of my rears loosened up on separate occasions 1 year and about 15k apart. I have been the only one who has touched my truck during that time period. Maybie some clown at my work is messing around with my truck as well. My lugs and bolts look all original with 17 years and 177k

Maybe it is best to raise the torque settings to take into account a heavier wheel tire combo or lift.

I have gone back to the old school lug wrench good and tight for these as I have never had another vehicle lugs loosen up and have owned alot of different vehicles

 

[COLandCrusher]

More advice please:
So I think in the end it was a combination of 17 year old bolts that have been overtightened by PO, a larger tire and wheel package when I bought it, and maybe even the change from Penn to Colorado. I have purchased a set of 20 new DorMan Lug bolts, and this weekend have had the honor of removing the existing bolts. really not too tough of a job until the cone washers came into play! Definitely the drift method failed, as did the tapping of the end of the bolt. But what worked like a charm and really simple was the method to take a little hammer and tap on the hub just outside of the bolt that cone washer is on. 15-40 small taps worked no problem. Trying to separate the hub from rotor was the most difficult part of this job. It took a Vise, rotor locked into it as tight as could be (with rag of course) and a 4 foot breaker bar with 1/2 inch wrench. Wonder how tight I am supposed to bolt that backtogether with? it far exceeds my torque wrench specs. Just going out to do the rear bolt removal now.

 

[COLandCrusher]

well that was easy, just finished pounding out all the studs in the rear. ok, so let me know if anybody has an idea on torquing of the hub to rotor bolts.

 

[sean2202]

I have to admit I used an impact on mine on setting 3 (est 80-90 ft lbs) in a criss cross pattern to tighten the hub to rotor bolts. Then I double checked the tightness with a large 1/2 ratchet( good and tight). If you do not have an impact you could put it in a vice with a cloth around the rotor to protect the surface and then keep turning it to torque each bolt. I also used blue locktite on these bolts as well. The previous owner left me a present which required drilling one hub mounting bolt out and retapping to the next size. The original threads in the hub on mine were extremely rusted as the bolt had been lodged in the rotor for quite some time.

I had a bear of a time seperating my hub from the disc as well due to lovely rust. First I removed all the hub bolts with an impact then I rethreaded them back in about 3/4 of the way and set the old disc up on some 6x6 blocks while i tapped on the bolts with a long punch working around the hub and loosening the bolts as I go (using Kano Kroil penetrating oil as well) In the past I have used never seize on hub to rotor mating surfaces. This time I tried some marine grease.

Take some fine sand paper and smooth those cone washers out then use neverseize on them when you reinstall them. they will come out much easier next time. Also check the outer hub where you tapped on it. While this does work to loosen it that hub seems to be of a softer metal and can deform slightly where it was tapped. Check on the underside any deformations can be fixed with a fine metal file then fine sandpaper so the area is 100% flat again. A brass punch used on the studs is the FSM method.

Correct me if I am wrong but are the right and left side of the truck wheel studs different part numbers?

 

[coveboy]

I had this happen at complete random with my Tundra. Literally drove for months just fine, and one day it felt as if my alignment was completely shot out. I was taking 14 hours of classes and working 30 hours a week, so I figured the truck could take a "bad alignment" for a day or two until I could get it in the shop since my commute was only a few miles. Well I was wrong--left school en route to work and heard a loud clunk as the steering went to hell in a hand basket, and immediately pulled over. 3 of the bolts had completed sheered off and the wheel was being barely held on by 2 lugs. I hadn't been pushing the truck hard or anything, and was on stock wheels with some mild all terrain tires. No clue as to why the bolts gave out, but have had zero issues since swapping them out for a new set. 17 year old bolts could very well be the culprit, especially since the new wheels changed the angle of the force they had experienced for most of their life due to a change in offset, tire size, etc. I doubt that any possible shenanigans your son could have pulled would have resulted in this and not some other issues as well; s*** happens.

 

[YardPig]

That's like saying that oil drain plugs just fall out sometimes...

 

[coveboy]

That's like saying that oil drain plugs just fall out sometimes...

Not really though... Bolts under a constantly changing load getting tired over time is not unreasonable, in my opinion

 

[YardPig]

Are these aftermarket wheels hub centric or lug centric?

 

[Evan Kapel]

For all the bolts to fail after being torqued to spec is more than unlikely. If they did not fail during torquing, they would not then fail under the far lesser external load, as Ironcladlou stated. Even if they get "tired" they will not all fail.
They had to be loosened some way for that type of failure. It just does not compute.
As the saying goes: "if it don't compute, you must refute"

 

[AimCOtaco]

Are these aftermarket wheels hub centric or lug centric?

This ^^.

If it was vandalism then theres not much that could have prevented it.

If not vandalism it's most likely the wheel/hub/nut combination is not compatible.
What are the specs on the wheels used?

 

[gatormark91]

This ^^.

If it was vandalism then theres not much that could have prevented it.

If not vandalism it's most likely the wheel/hub/nut combination is not compatible.
What are the specs on the wheels used?

^beat me to it.

You need hub-centric wheels. Were you using hub or lug-centric wheels?

 

[COLandCrusher]

I have to admit I used an impact on mine on setting 3 (est 80-90 ft lbs) in a criss cross pattern to tighten the hub to rotor bolts. Then I double checked the tightness with a large 1/2 ratchet( good and tight). If you do not have an impact you could put it in a vice with a cloth around the rotor to protect the surface and then keep turning it to torque each bolt. I also used blue locktite on these bolts as well. The previous owner left me a present which required drilling one hub mounting bolt out and retapping to the next size. The original threads in the hub on mine were extremely rusted as the bolt had been lodged in the rotor for quite some time.

View attachment 1516441

I had a bear of a time seperating my hub from the disc as well due to lovely rust. First I removed all the hub bolts with an impact then I rethreaded them back in about 3/4 of the way and set the old disc up on some 6x6 blocks while i tapped on the bolts with a long punch working around the hub and loosening the bolts as I go (using Kano Kroil penetrating oil as well) In the past I have used never seize on hub to rotor mating surfaces. This time I tried some marine grease.

Take some fine sand paper and smooth those cone washers out then use neverseize on them when you reinstall them. they will come out much easier next time. Also check the outer hub where you tapped on it. While this does work to loosen it that hub seems to be of a softer metal and can deform slightly where it was tapped. Check on the underside any deformations can be fixed with a fine metal file then fine sandpaper so the area is 100% flat again. A brass punch used on the studs is the FSM method.

Correct me if I am wrong but are the right and left side of the truck wheel studs different part numbers?

My truck according to Lexus was all the same part number Sean. Yeah I think the rust is why these things were so stuck together. I do have an impact so I'll use that to get them on, and ensure at least 90 pounds to be safe using my new torque wrench. Thanks!

 

[COLandCrusher]

OK so I thought the wheels were KMC XD but that was for my '08 Land Cruiser. These wheels are American Racing 901's. They show compatible with the 98 Cruiser as well as the '00 LX470. So I am thinking that is not the issue.

 

[gatormark91]

How I installed my new wheel studs in my front hubs (pretty easy this way):
1. Put anti-sieze in the stud hole. Put the stud in from the back. Use an M14 flanged nut (I used a spare front shock nut I had around, but you can get an open-ended wheel nut from the parts store) OR a stack of M14 fender washers and one of the stock wheel nuts to pull the stud in a bit. Do all 5. They don't need to be seated all the way in at this point, yet.
2. Bolt the hub to the wheel with lug nuts, loosely, by hand, OFF the truck. Use anti-sieze. Using the friction of the tire on the floor gives you leverage to put a ratcheting breaker bar on the nuts.. I did it with the wheel standing up. Tighten the lugs in a criss-cross pattern. Loosen them and check to see if they are seated. If not, do it again. They absolutely need to be below the mounting surface of the hub before you put it all together.
3. Unbolt the wheel and hub (of course), put the hub back on per FSM. Put the wheel on, get it reasonably tight by hand. Drop the truck off the stands and torque the lug nuts down to recommended torque. DO NOT use an impact gun, ever, ever, ever.
4. Take it out for a short ride, then re-torque. Check the torque a couple times over the next week.

Still asking - did you use hub-centric wheels? If not, I'd make a fair bet this failure could happen again at some point. And, also, the hubs and rotors pretty much always rust together, even on southern trucks.

 

[gatormark91]

OK so I thought the wheels were KMC XD but that was for my '08 Land Cruiser. These wheels are American Racing 901's. They show compatible with the 98 Cruiser as well as the '00 LX470. So I am thinking that is not the issue.

I looked at the AR901s, I think(?) they might need hub-centric rings. If they need rings and you did not use them, bingo, there's your problem.

 

[AimCOtaco]

OK so I thought the wheels were KMC XD but that was for my '08 Land Cruiser. These wheels are American Racing 901's. They show compatible with the 98 Cruiser as well as the '00 LX470. So I am thinking that is not the issue.

That may only be true if you use the right lug nuts and hubcentric adapters if required. One of the AR notes is to alwasy use long threaded lugs they sell for Toyota and Lexus vehicles so I take that to mean they don't want you to use stock lug nuts.
For a wheel to "fit" the lugs, nuts, offset, hub-diameter must all be looked at as a system.

Sounds like maybe the holes are tapered and the big multi-fit stock lugnut got jammed in the bore rather than bottomed out to clamp the wheel?

Good luck with it, you may want to have the wheels inspected for damage after running loose, sorry, does not sound like a fun deal.