Momentary crank-no-start, all good after reset; diagnosis consensus por favor.

[xtern0]

Anyone had an issue with their LC200/LX570 having a crank-no-start condition that fixes itself after fully shutting down (double push on start button)?

Symptom: Pushed the Start button, engine cranked but no-start (no-spark/no-fuel type condition). Dash showed "Ignition On" even when the starter stopped turning. Tested the fob and the fob wouldn't unlock the doors, while still in the no-start condition.

When I saw "Ignition On", I figured there was some type of CAN-BUS/ECU authentication handshake hiccup or similar due to a dying fob battery or possible a dying main battery (I just realized I have the original main battery that came with it back in 2021).

Anyway, I double-pressed the Start button to initiate a full shutdown. I let it shutdown fully, then held the fob up to the start button and it started right up.

Runs fine now and I plan on replacing both the fob battery and the main battery today/tomorrow.

I am just asking for consensus on my preliminary diagnosis of a minor authentication/handshake hiccup due to low/dead battery in the fob and/or main battery so I don't end up stranded down the road for missing a known issue or recall I may have overlooked.

TIA mah bruthas!

 

[Sandroad]

Good first step to replace batteries and check/redo the battery connections. When a main battery goes dead or is disconnected, the first start after reconnection results in no-start. The second attempt it fires right up. If you have a multimeter, you can check voltages as a very rough indicator of any issues. You have a 5 year old main battery in the Texas heat and presumably 5 year old fob batteries, so it won’t be a loss to install new and hope.

 

[xtern0]

Good first step to replace batteries and check/redo the battery connections. When a main battery goes dead or is disconnected, the first start after reconnection results in no-start. The second attempt it fires right up. If you have a multimeter, you can check voltages as a very rough indicator of any issues. You have a 5 year old main battery in the Texas heat and presumably 5 year old fob batteries, so it won’t be a loss to install new and hope.

Agreed...and good info regarding crank-no-start after a battery disconnect/dead situation. I was a bit shocked at myself that I hadn't even thought about the main battery in all this time.

Fob batteries all replaced; Odyssey Extreme AGM (ODX-AGM27F) en route.

I'll wrap this up and post an update if I see don't have the issue again within 2k miles after replacing the fob batteries and the main battery.

 

[GrouchyTech]

That AGM battery will probably be chronically undercharged. I’d just go with a good standard 27F lead acid for 1/3rd the cost.

Regarding that first start after a 12V battery disconnect— the engine will turn over AND fire for a half second and then it shuts down. It won’t be a long crank no-start. The next start attempt will be successful.

The fact that this one had a long crank without ignition is curious. You’ll have a no-start code with freeze frame data… would be helpful to see that.

 

[xtern0]

That AGM battery will probably be chronically undercharged. I’d just go with a good standard 27F lead acid for 1/3rd the cost.

Regarding that first start after a 12V battery disconnect— the engine will turn over AND fire for a half second and then it shuts down. It won’t be a long crank no-start. The next start attempt will be successful.

The fact that this one had a long crank without ignition is curious. You’ll have a no-start code with freeze frame data… would be helpful to see that.

It was my understanding that Toyota controls charging from the ECU after around 2014 or so and does not have a fixed-voltage charging system, thus allowing the ECU to top off (or at least maintain it above the minimum 81%) an AGM contingent upon alternator output. For example: I suspect my 2017 Tacoma is unable to top off the AGM, but am reasonably confident that if I upgrade the alternator, the ECU will adjust accordingly.

I could be (readin: am probably) wrong on that... @Eric Sarjeant : What is the Official Toyota Gospel on the question of fixed vs. variable charging voltages for a 2021 J200 US-spec Toyota Land Cruiser, can the alternator produce enough juice to adequately charge an AGM, and, predicated on that answer, what years, if any, of J200/GX570s would benefit from an upgraded AGM main battery?

I'll be back at my hangar this weekend and check if there is any stored CAN data. If anything got stored, I'll post it here.

 

[xtern0]

...and here's what the ECU has stored...hasn't done it since. Putting in the new main battery today. Basically, it appears the truck is telling me "Hey, I didn't start for some weird reason...don't know why."

Based on my research, "battery issues" sits at the top of the list for likely causes, so it was probably just a 5+ year old battery in Texas.

I'll keep an eye on it and post in a few months.

 

[GrouchyTech]

It was my understanding that Toyota controls charging from the ECU after around 2014 or so and does not have a fixed-voltage charging system, thus allowing the ECU to top off (or at least maintain it above the minimum 81%) an AGM contingent upon alternator output. For example: I suspect my 2017 Tacoma is unable to top off the AGM, but I wam reasonably confident that if I upgurade the alternator, the ECU will adjust

I talked with a few people about the AGM thing, and we are in agreement that there shouldn’t be a problem in practice, especially with the larger variability in output from the LIN-controlled alternator on the later 200s.

 

[GrouchyTech]

...and here's what the ECU has stored...hasn't done it since. Putting in the new main battery today. Basically, it appears the truck is telling me "Hey, I didn't start for some weird reason...don't know why."

Based on my research, "battery issues" sits at the top of the list for likely causes, so it was probably just a 5+ year old battery in Texas.

I'll keep an eye on it and post in a few months.

View attachment 4120892

I think you’re on the right track replacing the battery as step one. When there is a battery issue it can mask the actual problem (if there is one).

 

[Adrenaline6]

If you want a better charging voltage for your AGM the easy fix is to get one of these or similar.

Voltage Booster PRO "Spark" (2nd Gen Tundra, 2nd Gen Tacoma, 2nd Gen Sequoia, Land Cruiser, LX570)

Easily increase your alternator voltage! Upgrade your car's electrical system in seconds! This plug-and-play device easily increases alternator voltage for improved performance. No complicated wiring or tools needed.

voltageboosterpro.com

It even has a high/low switch so you can dial it down a bit during the hot months to protect the battery and bring it back up for the cooler ones.

Even then, charging it up to full capacity once a month with a quality charger is a good maintenance practice.

 

[xtern0]

If you want a better charging voltage for your AGM the easy fix is to get one of these or similar.

Voltage Booster PRO "Spark" (2nd Gen Tundra, 2nd Gen Tacoma, 2nd Gen Sequoia, Land Cruiser, LX570)

Easily increase your alternator voltage! Upgrade your car's electrical system in seconds! This plug-and-play device easily increases alternator voltage for improved performance. No complicated wiring or tools needed.

voltageboosterpro.com

It even has a high/low switch so you can dial it down a bit during the hot months to protect the battery and bring it back up for the cooler ones.

Even then, charging it up to full capacity once a month with a quality charger is a good maintenance practice.

Okay, so I've been doing some serious research on AGMs after @GrouchyTech 's input. Needless to say, I wish I had done said research BEFORE I'd just assumed an AGM would be a "best" solution for my needs. I f****ing hate the taste of crow and I hate how much it costs when it comes to vehicles.

@Adrenaline6 : Third party options for anything past 2015 are sketchy at best from what I've been researching and mostly involve hardwire solutions that appear to "trick" older voltage regulators into allowing overcharge (hence why they are only available for Gen2 Tacomas and 4runners running the same power plant as a Gen2 Taco). Some other solutions for newer ECU/LIN controlled voltage claim to use VFTune or similar third party tuning services. However, I do know a bit about ECUs, 5v systems, and CAN-BUS hacking...I'm not sure tuning is a legit solution since it was my understanding (and experience) that Toyota does a pretty good job of walling off the LIN bus and does not allow any calibration tables related to charging, so I suspect most of those tunes are also "sketchy" at best since I suspect they would require manipulation of other calibration tables to cause some sort of domino or daisy-chain work around involving throttle response or transmission behavior thereby causing an overcharge event. Possibly some Body ECU trickery...but that's a stretch. Assuming that its even possible (I would call that "glitching" your way to a solution) and assuming these self-proclaimed tuners aren't just entirely full of sh** and just puffing in order to sell more fuel maps that most people regret getting anyway.

Sooo...if one has purchased an AGM for their mall cruiser (I legit need the AGM for our rally truck with the winch), then the solution appears to be a trickle charge pigtail on the battery and plugging it in when not driving it.

I got sold on AGMs many years ago when I was having issues powering a 3rd gen with a winch out on the trails, so I haven't researched AGM tech in at least a decade, and foolishly forgot that the only dang reason I got an AGM in the first place was for a rally truck that we winch with quite often.

In hindsight, I shoulda just dropped $150 on a Toyota Truestart and saved myself some coin...$300 lesson learned.

FOLLOWUP: I just realized that my son and I upgraded the converter on his creepy college camper van that makes an AGM coach battery ideal...so not a complete loss. Just going to move the AGM over to the camper van and buy a Toyota Truestart for the Land Cruiser.

***UPDATE: Okay, so I just got my '17 Tacoma Rally truck turned by OTT (overlandtailor.com). Alex in Dallas was able to switch the Tacoma to charge the AGM battery, with the caveat that I could only use AGM batteries in it going forward. So I guess I was just completely wrong about being able to change the voltage regulation and the vehicles can be tweaked to fully charge an AGM battery...again, with the caveat that you can ONLY use an AGM going forward. Apparently, they can do similar tuning on my Land Cruiser if I wanted to...after feeling the difference in power with the '17 Tacoma OR M/T, I'm now seriously considering seeing how much more HP I can get out of my Land Cruiser. Just disregard all the strikethrough blathering I have up in this post; I'm WAY out of date.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Okay, so I've been doing some serious research on AGMs after @GrouchyTech 's input. Needless to say, I wish I had done said research BEFORE I'd just assumed an AGM would be a "best" solution for my needs. I f****ing hate the taste of crow and I hate how much it costs when it comes to vehicles.

@Adrenaline6 : Third party options for anything past 2015 are sketchy at best from what I've been researching and mostly involve hardwire solutions that appear to "trick" older voltage regulators into allowing overcharge (hence why they are only available for Gen2 Tacomas and 4runners running the same power plant as a Gen2 Taco). Some other solutions for newer ECU/LIN controlled voltage claim to use VFTune or similar third party tuning services. However, I do know a bit about ECUs, 5v systems, and CAN-BUS hacking...I'm not sure tuning is a legit solution since it was my understanding (and experience) that Toyota does a pretty good job of walling off the LIN bus and does not allow any calibration tables related to charging, so I suspect most of those tunes are also "sketchy" at best since I suspect they would require manipulation of other calibration tables to cause some sort of domino or daisy-chain work around involving throttle response or transmission behavior thereby causing an overcharge event. Possibly some Body ECU trickery...but that's a stretch. Assuming that its even possible (I would call that "glitching" your way to a solution) and assuming these self-proclaimed tuners aren't just entirely full of sh** and just puffing in order to sell more fuel maps that most people regret getting anyway.

Sooo...if one has foolishly purchased an AGM for their mall cruiser (I legit need the AGM for our rally truck with the winch), then the solution appears to be a trickle charge pigtail on the battery and plugging it in when not driving it.

I got sold on AGMs many years ago when I was having issues powering a 3rd gen with a winch out on the trails, so I haven't researched AGM tech in at least a decade, and foolishly forgot that the only dang reason I got an AGM in the first place was for a rally truck that we winch with quite often.

In hindsight, I shoulda just dropped $150 on a Toyota Truestart and saved myself some coin...$300 lesson learned.

FOLLOWUP: I just realized that my son and I upgraded the converter on his creepy college camper van that makes an AGM coach battery ideal...so not a complete loss. Just going to move the AGM over to the camper van and buy a Toyota Truestart for the Land Cruiser.

There are plenty of guys here and on other forums that run AGM's with zero problems. Is it the ideal situation for the AGM? No. Is it sufficient with the maintenance of full charges. Yes. You are in a different boat though with a newer model, so I understand your take. I have a 2014, so the voltage boost solution is working just fine.

 

[GrouchyTech]

There are plenty of guys here and on other forums that run AGM's with zero problems. Is it the ideal situation for the AGM? No. Is it sufficient with the maintenance of full charges. Yes. You are in a different boat though with a newer model, so I understand your take. I have a 2014, so the voltage boost solution is working just fine.

I agree with all of that. I don’t think there will be an issue in practice with the 2016+.

 

[xtern0]

I agree with all of that. I don’t think there will be an issue in practice with the 2016+.

For my '17 Tacoma, AGM was worth it all day long. In fact, I installed a Northstar (now Odyssey) AGM in our Tacoma rally truck back in 2017 and the thing lasted almost a decade of long distance rallies, road trips, desert baja, heavy farm use, wheeling, stumping, brush cleaning, logging, etc., including the ALCAN5000 winter rally. So for that use AGM turned out to be one of the best investments I've ever made.

My main AGM gripe is the price difference, and my opinion hinges upon that price difference. Upgrading to AGM is a relatively large increase in price that, IMHO, is simply not justified given how I use this particular vehicle right now (mall cruiser and commuter).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing workarounds, tweaks, or upgrades, I just think trying to workaround the limitations/controls of ECM/LIN controlled voltage regulation in a newer Toyota seems like a very risky solution that could cause more problems than it would solve.

***UPDATE: Okay, so I just got my '17 Tacoma Rally truck turned by OTT (overlandtailor.com). Alex in Dallas was able to switch the Tacoma to charge the AGM battery, with the caveat that I could only use AGM batteries in it going forward. So I guess I was just completely wrong about being able to change the voltage regulation and the vehicles can be tweaked to fully charge an AGM battery...again, with the caveat that you can ONLY use an AGM going forward. Apparently, they can do similar tuning on my Land Cruiser if I wanted to...after feeling the difference in power with the '17 Tacoma OR M/T, I'm now seriously considering seeing how much more HP I can get out of my Land Cruiser. Just disregard all the strikethrough blathering I have up in this post; I'm WAY out of date.

 

[xtern0]

Okay, so I just got my '17 Tacoma Rally truck turned by OTT (overlandtailor.com). Alex in Dallas was able to switch the Tacoma to charge the AGM battery, with the caveat that I could only use AGM batteries in it going forward. So I guess I was just completely wrong about being able to change the voltage regulation and the vehicles can be tweaked to fully charge an AGM battery...again, with the caveat that you can ONLY use an AGM going forward. Apparently, they can do similar tuning on my Land Cruiser if I wanted to...after feeling the difference in power with the '17 Tacoma OR M/T, I'm now seriously considering seeing how much more HP I can get out of my Land Cruiser. Just disregard all the strikethrough blathering I have up in this post; I'm WAY out of date.