LRA Issues and Insight Needed

[K9LTW]

I'll start with, yes, I plan to reach out to LRA and, yes, I'll be talking with my local installer. Still want to pick the braintrust's mind here to cover all the bases. Running it to the installer is a process and my wife is out of town anyway to drive out there with me.

Had a 12.5-gal tank with LRA's "upgraded" fuel pump installed on my '16 LC a few weeks ago. I've only had it down to about 1/4 tank twice since then to test out the transfer. Both times it was...less than effective. With the LRA registering as full, I'd hit the button to get the amber indicator and could hear the pump (so long as I'm stopped, otherwise it's nearly inaudible while driving). Even after 20+ minutes, the gauge would finally start registering it's going down...eventually turning red...eventually beeping to indicate the aux tank was empty. But there's, maybe, a barely discernable change in the main fuel gauge. Then...the aux gauge will start turning green, again. One bar...two...back to red...back to one. I know folks have reported having to hit the aux button two, maybe three, times to empty it. I'm driving while it's running through hilly terrain.

Each time I hit a gas station shortly after the test. Each time I ended up putting around 12 gal in the main tank and only about 5 in the aux using the pump shutoff each time to not overfill. The math isn't adding up...not even remotely.

With the aux gauge registering green, I'm wondering if there's some significant siphoning going on. But, surely, it wouldn't siphon at the same rate as the pump would it? I'm just surprised the main fuel gauge isn't going up as expected, then, slowly, going back down after the fuel pump cuts off if siphoning were going on.

I've found no leaks, no gas smell. Any ideas on stuff I can check (obviously without dropping the tank) while I have it at home? Could it be a vacuum issue? Loose hose (that wouldn't, somehow, cause a leak)? Position of aux fuel pump as compared to the filter, or anything else? Any function tests I can perform in a garage with no lift?

 

[sdnative]

I do not have an aux fuel tank so may not be familiar with the specifics, but did you calibrate the level sensors? I believe or imagine they read a certain resistance when full and another when empty, with a linear interpolation. Sounds like the level sensor may not be calibrated properly?

 

[Artie]

I have the 40 gallon so it’s empty will be different than yours but I will say that there is usually 3 or so gallons left in my LRA when the pump shuts off after it reads empty. To get those last gallons out I have to run the pump again a couple times, it runs in its “empty” mode for just 2 minutes at this stage.

Yours may have something else going on given the gauge behavior. I would check for loose grounds or anything loose that you can access. But seeing as this was recently installed going back to them, however inconvenient, would be my next move if I didn’t find anything easy to fix and obvious.

I’ve attached the gauge instructions, you may find something helpful in there.

 

[Zill]

Is there a vacuum being created in the LRA tank? I’m wondering if the LRA tank is being able to vent correctly.

 

[K9LTW]

I do not have an aux fuel tank so may not be familiar with the specifics, but did you calibrate the level sensors? I believe or imagine they read a certain resistance when full and another when empty, with a linear interpolation. Sounds like the level sensor may not be calibrated properly?

No calibration that I'm aware of or have seen in any documentation. My main tank registers just fine when I fill up at the pump as well. Maybe the fuel pump is that slow that it pumps as fast as I burn it. I mean...it IS an incredibly fuel-efficient brick!

 

[K9LTW]

I have the 40 gallon so it’s empty will be different than yours but I will say that there is usually 3 or so gallons left in my LRA when the pump shuts off after it reads empty. To get those last gallons out I have to run the pump again a couple times, it runs in its “empty” mode for just 2 minutes at this stage.

Yours may have something else going on given the gauge behavior. I would check for loose grounds or anything loose that you can access. But seeing as this was recently installed going back to them, however inconvenient, would be my next move if I didn’t find anything easy to fix and obvious.

I’ve attached the gauge instructions, you may find something helpful in there.

Thanks for this! Now to source a resistor...or 1,000 of them from Amazon! HA!

 

[K9LTW]

Is there a vacuum being created in the LRA tank? I’m wondering if the LRA tank is being able to vent correctly.

I'm...hoping?...it's something like a kinked hose somewhere, or a loose connection that I can see with the wheel and fender liner removed.

 

[CanadianRockyCruiser]

I'm...hoping?...it's something like a kinked hose somewhere, or a loose connection that I can see with the wheel and fender liner removed.

That's a great place to start. The breather hose is in a place that kinking is certainly possible. If you dig in there, check the location of the pump as well (and take a photo). The height (relative to the Aux tank) and the position of the pump can impact it's ability to flow.

The Toyota main tank doesn't read and report at the cluster gauge in a real-time continuum. I believe it samples periodically. When I fill from my LRA24, it often jumps in intervals every few minutes.

 

[K9LTW]

That's a great place to start. The breather hose is in a place that kinking is certainly possible. If you dig in there, check the location of the pump as well (and take a photo). The height (relative to the Aux tank) and the position of the pump can impact it's ability to flow.

The Toyota main tank doesn't read and report at the cluster gauge in a real-time continuum. I believe it samples periodically. When I fill from my LRA24, it often jumps in intervals every few minutes.

I'll get some pics...thanks for the reco to look at the breather hose.

As far as the main tank...it's not even jumping incrementally after some time (over an hour), or even a restart.

 

[prharper]

Definitely not normal behavior. The gauge readings will be delayed by a few minutes. For sure, pull the wheel liner and look at the fuel hoses and breather. Hope you have a nice warm garage.
Who installed your LRA tank and do they have prior experience installing on a LC 200?

 

[K9LTW]

Definitely not normal behavior. The gauge readings will be delayed by a few minutes. For sure, pull the wheel liner and look at the fuel hoses and breather. Hope you have a nice warm garage.
Who installed your LRA tank and do they have prior experience installing on a LC 200?

Unfortunately ran out of time last night, but...I have a space heater, at least an insulated garage, and fleece-lined pants...and bourbon. I'll be a'ight Today's a veritable heatwave!

I had Peter Aylestock put it in for me. I, absolutely, trust him to be meticulous about things and be knowledgeable about Cruisers. I know he hasn't done a lot of LRAs, but this wasn't the first. But...as in all things... happens. Worst case I have to schlep it back over to him and run by Mom's Apple Pie (if you aren't familiar...shame on you with your proximity) on the way home. Damn the luck.

 

[prharper]

Unfortunately ran out of time last night, but...I have a space heater, at least an insulated garage, and fleece-lined pants...and bourbon. I'll be a'ight Today's a veritable heatwave!

I had Peter Aylestock put it in for me. I, absolutely, trust him to be meticulous about things and be knowledgeable about Cruisers. I know he hasn't done a lot of LRAs, but this wasn't the first. But...as in all things... happens. Worst case I have to schlep it back over to him and run by Mom's Apple Pie (if you aren't familiar...shame on you with your proximity) on the way home. Damn the luck.

Sounds like you have all the necessaties covered. Glad to hear you are working with Aylestock Auto, good people and they know what they are doing. Very familiar with Mom's Apple Pie too
You may want to make a pitstop to Monk's BBQ on the way, owner has one the largest Bourbon selections in the area.

 

[K9LTW]

Here's about the best I could do in that tiny space. Nothing, obviously, kinked. Grounds all go to a solid point on the frame and check out. The outlet side of the pump appears to be a tiny bit higher than the inlet...which is supposed to be good.

A concern I had, though, is that LRA states "The pump must be installed above the fuel level of the new tank, and within 12 vertical inches of the new tank bottom." Well...the within 12" part is easy. I'm assuming that's more for the 40-gal crowd and/or different vehicles. But the pump is just barely above the bottom of the tank. With that said, the way the outlet hose goes through that hole in the vertical support, I don't see how it could be mounted any higher. And it's, basically, where the photo in the install manual is. Where the fill hose goes into the aux tank is higher than the pump (pic 4), but again, I don't know that that's able to be remedied.

The only glaring difference to me is the positioning of the charcoal canister and filter. He installed it in more of a vertical manner (first pic) to get it as high as possible to avoid swamping it in water crossings. It's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but the filter is higher. The hose just loops down and back up. The install docs, however, say to mount it "as shown" (second pic) with a much more horizontal path to the evap canister and the filter hose never being below the charcoal canister. Could this be an issue?

Looking at the hose routing, it appears as if I may be able to actually watch the fuel transfer by shining a light into the filler ports. That's a test for a day when I don't have two, full, tanks of gas

 

[CanadianRockyCruiser]

Try unscrewing the hose going into the filler neck by taking the clamp off and pulling it (that's the fill hose on the top left side of your first photo). Then test pumping it into a catch can to see what your flow rate is like...also to make sure your hosing is connected correctly, just in case the pump is hooked up to the top right hose (double check). I have a hypothesis that these two hoses may be mixed up at the filler neck.

Also check the breather line for any kinks between the brass breather and the plastic breather box.

 

[K9LTW]

Try unscrewing the hose going into the filler neck by taking the clamp off and pulling it (that's the fill hose on the top left side of your first photo). Then test pumping it into a catch can to see what your flow rate is like...also to make sure your hosing is connected correctly, just in case the pump is hooked up to the top right hose (double check). I have a hypothesis that these two hoses may be mixed up at the filler neck.

Also check the breather line for any kinks between the brass breather and the plastic breather box.

I'll check the fill rate tonight and double-check the routing. Thanks for the suggestions!

Breather line looked a-ok last night. I ran my fingers along the lengths of all the accessible tubing and looked. No kinks, no crimped 90-degree bends and none of the zip ties are biting too hard.

 

[gasman4u]

Here's about the best I could do in that tiny space. Nothing, obviously, kinked. Grounds all go to a solid point on the frame and check out. The outlet side of the pump appears to be a tiny bit higher than the inlet...which is supposed to be good.

A concern I had, though, is that LRA states "The pump must be installed above the fuel level of the new tank, and within 12 vertical inches of the new tank bottom." Well...the within 12" part is easy. I'm assuming that's more for the 40-gal crowd and/or different vehicles. But the pump is just barely above the bottom of the tank. With that said, the way the outlet hose goes through that hole in the vertical support, I don't see how it could be mounted any higher. And it's, basically, where the photo in the install manual is. Where the fill hose goes into the aux tank is higher than the pump (pic 4), but again, I don't know that that's able to be remedied.

The only glaring difference to me is the positioning of the charcoal canister and filter. He installed it in more of a vertical manner (first pic) to get it as high as possible to avoid swamping it in water crossings. It's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but the filter is higher. The hose just loops down and back up. The install docs, however, say to mount it "as shown" (second pic) with a much more horizontal path to the evap canister and the filter hose never being below the charcoal canister. Could this be an issue?

Looking at the hose routing, it appears as if I may be able to actually watch the fuel transfer by shining a light into the filler ports. That's a test for a day when I don't have two, full, tanks of gas

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Your charcoal canister is above your tank and not pictured. You have a LRA breather (foam filter element with perforated cylinder from LRA) and a paper Toyota filter (pictured and I'm assuming that's what you were calling your CC) enclosed in black plastic there. I was chasing all sorts of evap codes and actually replaced this part needlessly.

To echo what @CanadianRockyCruiser said, check your flow of fuel. To save some time and spilled fuel, you can do this when your engine is running and simply open your fuel tank filler cap to look inside your filler neck. You should see pulsatile fuel flow when the pump is engaged.
If I had to guess, I'd say something is kinked/plumbed slightly off with your LRA breathing lines preventing volume replacement (air vs fuel). Or maybe the sender is bad? Give LRA a call, they may be able to walk you through some stuff with a multimeter without having to drop your tank from the outset. HTH.

EDIT: What's the silver thing before your fuel pump? I don't know if I have one of those (but can't remember for sure).

 

[CanadianRockyCruiser]

The silver thing is a small filter.

If there are no obvious flow issues or piping mix ups, I'd check electrical connections next (at the switch, pump, and connectivity). If nothing else obvious resolves it, you may have to drop the tank and check the sender unit in the top of the tank for electrical connectivity, and float level function.

 

[K9LTW]

Your charcoal canister is above your tank and not pictured. You have a LRA breather (foam filter element with perforated cylinder from LRA) and a paper Toyota filter (pictured and I'm assuming that's what you were calling your CC) enclosed in black plastic there. I was chasing all sorts of evap codes and actually replaced this part needlessly.

To echo what @CanadianRockyCruiser said, check your flow of fuel. To save some time and spilled fuel, you can do this when your engine is running and simply open your fuel tank filler cap to look inside your filler neck. You should see pulsatile fuel flow when the pump is engaged.
If I had to guess, I'd say something is kinked/plumbed slightly off with your LRA breathing lines preventing volume replacement (air vs fuel). Or maybe the sender is bad? Give LRA a call, they may be able to walk you through some stuff with a multimeter without having to drop your tank from the outset. HTH.

EDIT: What's the silver thing before your fuel pump? I don't know if I have one of those (but can't remember for sure).

Ah...I thought the evap canister was the one above the tank vs. the charcoal given LRA calls them out individually. Good to know, thanks! And thanks for the reassurance I should be able to see the fuel transfer. I thought I'd seen that somewhere. I'll start there and then pull the hose if needed.

I sent a note to LRA, but will call if I don't hear anything shortly.

 

[hoser]

Looking at the hose routing, it appears as if I may be able to actually watch the fuel transfer by shining a light into the filler ports. That's a test for a day when I don't have two, full, tanks of gas

Even with two full tanks, you can see the transfer into the main tank inlet. It's impossible to overfill the main tank because the fuel just spills back over into the aux tank inlet.

 

[TeCKis300]

I can't see anything amiss in the install.

It's important to note that the aux tank output port is at the forward passenger side corner of the tank. The cars pitch and roll, i,e. going up a hill or cornering right will slosh the fuel away from the pickup.

I suspect nothing remarkable is going on?

What I usually do is wait for the main tank to drop to half before starting the transfer. It does take awhile with these types of transfer pumps (which in itself is not a problem). I haven't timed it but about 20-30 minutes for my 12.5G aux. This should top off the main tank with it reading about full.

To the earlier point, I usually do this on straight level roads but there is a possibility if you're in a hilly area, it will prematurely not transfer the whole tank and get the symptoms you're seeing.

I'll usually fill 10-11 gal on the 12.5 gal aux tank.