loosing boost - real time help
- Thread starter rideglobally
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Good to hear you made it out and with a colourful closer to boot, and hats off to the web tech support people.
Hi Amado,
The specifications on the standard lift pump are 900ml per minute and 2 bar, or 30psi. There is a pressure relief valve built into the outlet to the return line at the back end of the injection pump. Not at the back of the governor, but the main IP housing. Inside that banjo and connection is a spring with a ball bearing, and this regulates the internal pressures inside the IP.
It is interesting to note that the 2H has the same lift pump specs and no pressure regulation on the IP.
If you add an extra electric pump after the lift pump and before the Racor, you will need to make sure the flow and pressure do not exceed the standard lift pump specs by too much. How much is too much?? Dunno.
If you exceed the volume or pressure by too much you're relying on the pressure relief valve to bleed of excess. Now, it might be capable of bleeding off several litres a minute, and no doubt it is, but this is unknown.
I recall using a high capacity diaphragm pump on my 12HT for some time when on start up and before it turned to veggie oil. The specs were something like 14 lpm and 35psi. I bypassed a lot of that back into the inlet of the pump, but still, there was a LOT of flow through the IP and I don't know what pressure the IP was seeing. Never caused any problems.
What is the performance rating of your electric fuel pump? Unless it's an unregulated gear pump, I can't see it being a problem.
Tim
RufusTheDufus
SILVER Star
Why not just put a small electric pump at each tank? Facet makes a small diaphragm pump that puts out 2 to 4 PSI and is biodiesel compatible. The electric draw of this pump is very small.
I think it would be best to not put an electric pump between the stock lift pump and the injection pump. The stock lift pump puts out a variable amount of fuel depending on engine speed. There's no easy way to calibrate an electric pump to accept a variable rate of fuel/pressure on the inlet and maintain a consistent output volume and pressure to the injection pump.
Using a supplemental low-pressure electric pump at the tank alleviates this condition. If the Facet pump fails it does so in a way that fuel still flows through it. i.e. you're not stranded on the side of the road. Put your Racor before the stock lift pump and it will most likely drop the pressure enough that your lift pump won't notice the supplemental electric pump. If you need me to find the part number for the Facet pump I can go dig around in the garage.
I think it would be best to not put an electric pump between the stock lift pump and the injection pump. The stock lift pump puts out a variable amount of fuel depending on engine speed. There's no easy way to calibrate an electric pump to accept a variable rate of fuel/pressure on the inlet and maintain a consistent output volume and pressure to the injection pump.
Using a supplemental low-pressure electric pump at the tank alleviates this condition. If the Facet pump fails it does so in a way that fuel still flows through it. i.e. you're not stranded on the side of the road. Put your Racor before the stock lift pump and it will most likely drop the pressure enough that your lift pump won't notice the supplemental electric pump. If you need me to find the part number for the Facet pump I can go dig around in the garage.
rideglobally
Nullacruiser
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- Sep 16, 2007
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installed the Facet electric fuel pump
thanks Tim and Rufusthedufus, i have installed a Facet electric fuel pump here is the link to the electric pump http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/R...k=Keyword&Nty=1&Dn=0&D=610+2002&Dk=1&Dp=3&N=0
after doing some research i have installed the electric fuel pump about 12" (below) after the tanks output fuel lines, before the OEM water separator. i also installed a off and on switch in the cab, the electric fuel pump will only turn on when the ignition switch is on. the idea is to turn it on when i need it, like when i am under load and turn the pump off when i do not needed it. i also change my racor filter element to 10 micron, i had 2 micron.
i will post picture soon as i can. thanks again
thanks Tim and Rufusthedufus, i have installed a Facet electric fuel pump here is the link to the electric pump http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/R...k=Keyword&Nty=1&Dn=0&D=610+2002&Dk=1&Dp=3&N=0
after doing some research i have installed the electric fuel pump about 12" (below) after the tanks output fuel lines, before the OEM water separator. i also installed a off and on switch in the cab, the electric fuel pump will only turn on when the ignition switch is on. the idea is to turn it on when i need it, like when i am under load and turn the pump off when i do not needed it. i also change my racor filter element to 10 micron, i had 2 micron.
i will post picture soon as i can. thanks again
Hi Amado,
I am familiar with those Facet pumps.
Their specs from that link are:
Fuel Pump Gallons Per Hour : 30 gph
Fuel Pump Pressure Rating : 7 - 4 psi
They are 'okay' as an assistance in a fuel line where there are other problems, and I find people often use them to resolve other issues. Amongst the veggie users, they are regarded as useless on anything but standard viscosity fuels - i.e straight diesel.
I am concerned that your plans to use them will add to your problem, not aid it.
Internally they contain a simple cylinder with a small valve in one end of the piston. The piston is moved forward by the electromagnet and pushed back by a spring. The valve opens to let more fuel in, and when the magnet is pulling the piston, the valve closes and pushes the fuel out the other end.
I believe the engines OEM lift pump "might" be strong enough to suck the fuel through the pumps one way valve when the pump is turned off, but it is adding an unnecessary restriction in the line. Yes, it will work okay when the pump is turned on, but IMHO you will need to have it running all the time.
I believe you have resolved the problem by replacing the Racor element with a 10micron rather than the 2 micron. I suspect the 2micron was blocking enough to cause the problems, and would like to see how you go by changing one thing at a time.
The best option would be to retain the Racor and it's 10 micron element, and remove the Facet pumps. If you still have problems, then install the Facets.
Or alternatively, be prepared to run the Facets all the time. They are designed for continual use and are reliable, so this should not be a problem. I just think they will be unnecessary now you've addressed the filter issue.
OEM fuel filters are 10 - 15 micron, so a 10 micron Racor will be sweet, and a finer rated filter element will not make any discernible difference to your IP.
All the best
Tim
I am familiar with those Facet pumps.
Their specs from that link are:
Fuel Pump Gallons Per Hour : 30 gph
Fuel Pump Pressure Rating : 7 - 4 psi
They are 'okay' as an assistance in a fuel line where there are other problems, and I find people often use them to resolve other issues. Amongst the veggie users, they are regarded as useless on anything but standard viscosity fuels - i.e straight diesel.
I am concerned that your plans to use them will add to your problem, not aid it.
Internally they contain a simple cylinder with a small valve in one end of the piston. The piston is moved forward by the electromagnet and pushed back by a spring. The valve opens to let more fuel in, and when the magnet is pulling the piston, the valve closes and pushes the fuel out the other end.
I believe the engines OEM lift pump "might" be strong enough to suck the fuel through the pumps one way valve when the pump is turned off, but it is adding an unnecessary restriction in the line. Yes, it will work okay when the pump is turned on, but IMHO you will need to have it running all the time.
I believe you have resolved the problem by replacing the Racor element with a 10micron rather than the 2 micron. I suspect the 2micron was blocking enough to cause the problems, and would like to see how you go by changing one thing at a time.
The best option would be to retain the Racor and it's 10 micron element, and remove the Facet pumps. If you still have problems, then install the Facets.
Or alternatively, be prepared to run the Facets all the time. They are designed for continual use and are reliable, so this should not be a problem. I just think they will be unnecessary now you've addressed the filter issue.
OEM fuel filters are 10 - 15 micron, so a 10 micron Racor will be sweet, and a finer rated filter element will not make any discernible difference to your IP.
All the best
Tim
RufusTheDufus
SILVER Star
Exactly. I agree 100%.
Sorry to rub in the salt, but :
this rig worked very well before your problem, SO, something went wrong? Right. you must find the cause and fix it.
If adding the pump fixed it then good, it tells you a lot of things, like the problem is somewhere in your primary fuel delivery system.
Racor too "tight"?? yes probally
very fine air leaks?? possibly, but then the faccett may not pressure enough to bleed out the leaks..
Change the filter, check all the lines and do 10 000km with the faccett inline but off, then take it out and keep it for the next time. ?
I see the apeal of a 1um filter, but it needs a high pressure pump and a pressure relief valve and a return line. this must be well researched and thought out, but all possible. All too much for an expidition rig in my very humble opinion.
Great rig and great write-up's, please keep them coming.
this rig worked very well before your problem, SO, something went wrong? Right. you must find the cause and fix it.
If adding the pump fixed it then good, it tells you a lot of things, like the problem is somewhere in your primary fuel delivery system.
Racor too "tight"?? yes probally
very fine air leaks?? possibly, but then the faccett may not pressure enough to bleed out the leaks..
Change the filter, check all the lines and do 10 000km with the faccett inline but off, then take it out and keep it for the next time. ?
I see the apeal of a 1um filter, but it needs a high pressure pump and a pressure relief valve and a return line. this must be well researched and thought out, but all possible. All too much for an expidition rig in my very humble opinion.
Great rig and great write-up's, please keep them coming.
rideglobally
Nullacruiser
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2007
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- #29
the pump is now installed, i will do test drives to see if the mechanical lift pump will pull fuel through under load i.e, climbing an steep incline for a sustain period of time. if it does then great, if not then i will have the option of turning on the electric fuel pump.
my concern is that it does not damage my anything like my injector pump. if it does not cause any damage when it is turned on i think it will be ok. my understanding is that the excess fuel that the electric pump is pumping in will come out of the return line to the tank, is that correct? i will see how it does on the test drive tomorrow.
one benefit that i experience today is bleeding the fuel system. just turn on the electric pump, open the bleed valve until all the air in the system was out..... that was easy. i will keep you posted on the result of the test drive.
my concern is that it does not damage my anything like my injector pump. if it does not cause any damage when it is turned on i think it will be ok. my understanding is that the excess fuel that the electric pump is pumping in will come out of the return line to the tank, is that correct? i will see how it does on the test drive tomorrow.
one benefit that i experience today is bleeding the fuel system. just turn on the electric pump, open the bleed valve until all the air in the system was out..... that was easy. i will keep you posted on the result of the test drive.
Amado the Facet will not damage anything. As a pump, it is a lightweight compared to the built in mechanical lift pump.
You have found one advantage of it, no fuss priming after filter replacement.
If you really want to keep it, turn it on with the ignition and let it run all the time. Unless you do that, you're likely to create more problems than you resolve. I.e. it will not cause any problems leaving it on, and it will add extra unnecessary load to the lift pump if you leave it off.
Just leave it on and stop stressing,,!
Tim
Sent from my iPad using IH8MUD
You have found one advantage of it, no fuss priming after filter replacement.
If you really want to keep it, turn it on with the ignition and let it run all the time. Unless you do that, you're likely to create more problems than you resolve. I.e. it will not cause any problems leaving it on, and it will add extra unnecessary load to the lift pump if you leave it off.
Just leave it on and stop stressing,,!
Tim
Sent from my iPad using IH8MUD
sounds like the transfer pump is in a negative pressure loop.
