Junkyard turbo for 1HZ

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i was considering the garrett ta0301 or KKK K26 turbo from a Mercedes 300 Om617 engine series. Though the displacement is smaller the engines rev a lot higher (redline is 5500 i believe) The KKK has an adjustable wastegate as well. these are available all over the place. Another option.
 
1HZ and TD04-15G

VT:

Some comments from a mechanical engineer:

Turbo's and IC engines are both air pumps - the issue is at hand is whether the turbo is matched to the engine in the range where you are looking for torque improvements.

The consequence of having too small of a turbo, is that the turbo will spool quickly at low rpm, and not pump enough air and starve the engine at high RPM. Ultimate power potential will be reduced. Possibilities of over-fuelling the engine at high rpm exist.

The consequence of having too large of a turbo, is that the turbo will not start boosting until higher rpm. To gain power, you will need to rev the engine. Potential peak power is higher.

The problem with selecting turbo's by the current application engine displacement, is that it assumes the turbo was "perfectly" matched in the original application.. If that was the case, tuners would not be changing out turbo's 'cuz they already would have the best! The reality is, that any turbo selection will be a compromise! And compromizes are all a matter of opinion! Current engine displacement (and max rpm) will get you in the ball-park only, and will not ensure a home run, or even getting to first base.

Selection of a turbo used on a gasser is further complicated by the fact that gassers are air-throttled, and diesels are not. Also, the turbo on the gasser may be sized for high boost and high rpm operation, or low pressure and a wider power band. An example, Volvos of any particular model typically have either high pressure or low pressure turbo options. Even the selection of the transmission type can and will affect turbo selection.

The only way to select a turbo is to find the turbo maps, and do the math, and evaluate your needs. An alternative is to copy a previous selection, and assume that you desire the same results..

When I went digging for information, I learned the following:
- I was told Mitsubishi turbo's are easier and cheaper to rebuild than Garretts - this would appear to be true.
- Mitsi plain bearing turbos have similiar efficiencies to ball bearing Garretts, and cost about 50%. This verified by published turbo maps, and online price searching.
- The Mistsi's tend to be smaller diameter and longer than Garretts with similar flow charateristics
- Garretts have a "hole" in their sizes, just where one would like to pick one for a 1HZ. The big TD04's and small TD05's fit right into this hole.
- A TD04H-15G is just about the perfect size for a 1HZ, IMHO, if you are looking for lower end torque improvements like I am - IIRC, peak efficiency of that turbo should be at about 2400 engine rpm, and the turbo may choke the 1HZ above 4000 rpm (my automatic never shifts above about 4100 rpm now anyway). If you are looking for higher end boost, a TD05 is in order. Or a Garrett GT28.
- Like Tapage says, the info I have found on the KKK26's would indicate that they are in the range of sizes that are useful for the 1HZ.
- The Volvo TD04H-15G that I have, was very easy to "clock" for the 1HZ. It required the drilling of one, maybe two - 1/16" hole(s) for the locating pin(s).

The reality is, any turbo selection is going to be a compromize - you can buy a kit and see if the vendor's compromize matches what you want, or try a few different turbos and see which best matches what you want. Almost any turbo is going to help somewhere in the power curve, unless it is grossly oversized.

Also, remember Paredo's law - 80% of the results will come from 20% of the effort/spending - if you are looking to get 100% of the possible output from your engine, you will have to put in 100% of the effort or money. There ain't no free lunch!

Personally, I would rather have a turbo that is too small and makes more torque down low, than one that requires me to rev my engine.. But I was born in the mid 50's, and your needs may differ! (If I was looking for ultimate power, I'd buy a 572 chevy and junk the 4.2L diesel!:whoops: - I'm not!)

My flame suit is on!:flipoff2:

Jim
 
:flipoff2:
Jim_Hbar said:
VT:

My flame suit is on!:flipoff2:

Jim

great imput, no suit needed, unless its a flamer suit and you swing that way :flipoff2:

but nothing wrong with that!

compromise is a good way to describe the turbo selection.


cheers
 
I like a lot of the comments here but honestly in the real world I would not worry about it too much. The beauty is the Saab turbo (an excellent choice in my opinion) is wastegated. So there is nothing wrong *at all* with the choice, if it comes on too quickly then you only get more power and when the wastegate opens you are good to go even at high RPMs, no choking... If I remember correctly the Saab 2.3 turbo opens at 13 psi? Anyway, I would get a boost gauge but I think that is an excellent choice. You can do the mapping but even engine companies have not gotten it right.

Cummins, for example, started using tiny 12cm2 and even, gulp, 9cm2 housings from the factory even as they increased the impeller on their turbos. This was in 1994. My 1992 4BT had a smaller impeller and a massive 16cm2 housing. Which is now considered a good size for the 1/3 larger 6BT when running over 250 hp. Cummins drastically changed how the turbo functions over a period of really only a few years from really one end of the spectrum to the other entirely, which shows just how tweakable diesels are and really how the turbo choice depends largely on the **preference** of the owner and/or manufacturer. With a gas engine - absolutely - the turbo has to "match" but with a diesel that "match" is anywhere on a huge spectrum that is largely a prefereance.

There is nothing wrong with throwing the boost early as long as you have that wastegate. Particularly with diesels, lots and lots of room to mess around with different combos and no mechanical damage, just ineffiecency or torque curves that might be a hair off but really not that big a deal.. Also for the most part you can over boost and that will only matter depending on how much fuel you give it. Overboosting only really becomes an issue at choke points which is probably at least 16 psi or higher even on a 1HZ. There may be some 'longevity' issues with the engine but I think 10 psi or less and this is a non issue as well. Even for an IDI engine.

Let us know how it goes and what your choice is. I still think the 2.3 turbo will work great. And if it doesn't, pull it off and put it back to where it was. For all you know it could be a great career long choice...

Andre
 
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Tapage said:
In orther to get a wide pict of turbo " instalations " on non turbo engines, we need BOF valves . ?
Depends on the install. I am pretty sure with more of the toyota engines, even though they have a throttle flap, you don't need them for some reason. I don't think AXT or any of the kits use blow off valves. But that said it might not be a bad idea either. For that I would probably do aftermarket because it has directions unless someone has a good used one that they think will work well..

Also I have a Saab 2.3L turbo as well that I am dding now that I love. Gas powered but stuill turbo :)
 
just wondering .. any with a BOF in a turbo setup with this very ( by me ) apreciated sound .. pppppssssssssssss !!! :D I love this .. !

This one is a little this that I miss from my old 944 turbo .. :frown:
 
One advantage of the Volvo Mitsubishi turbo's is that they have an integrated BOV, which re-circulates the air to the turbo intake. Not that it's required by a 1HZ (no air throttle) in front of an automatic..
 
BOV's are important no matter what vehicle they are on. Excuse me if I am being condecending or seemingly talking down to people but my experience is with turbo petrol motors and with diesels in regards to BOV's there is no difference. A BOV has 2 functions. 1st is to keep the turbo spinning at approx. the same revs after the throttle is off. The back pressure from lifting the throttle causes the compressor wheel to slow down. By having a BOV this increase in back pressure is either vented to atmosphere or plumbed back into the intake. It keeps the turbo spooled up to ensure when you re-apply the throttle there is no lag.

The other benefit it has is prolonging turbo life because the back pressure on the compressor wheel is not healthy for a turbo and causes wheel imbalance hence wear from the vibrations of the back pressure.

If a fourby experiences water crossings then I would suggest a plumb-back BOV just incase the BOV leaks or is not adjusted properly and it ingests water. Plus plumback aids in spooling the turbo so this method is win win. The other consideration with going plumback is that certain regulations are still met especially here in Oz where a vent to atmosphere BOV increases the under-bonnet noise thus it is deemed illegal here for that reason in NSW, same reason pod filters are illegal, not widely known here but its true.
 
R2HKS said:
The other benefit it has is prolonging turbo life because the back pressure on the compressor wheel is not healthy for a turbo and causes wheel imbalance hence wear from the vibrations of the back pressure.

this is enough reazon to me, have a BOV vented to atm ( here are nor ilegal ) in my future turbo setup ..
 
Don't discount the plumback setup whether you can legally run a vet to atmosphere or not the plumback has a couple of benefits, that being the air coming back into the system aids in keep the compressor spooled up and can even slightly spool it faster than before and also its a sealed system so water, dust ect can't get into the intake which also prolongs the life of your turbo, obviously.

If you must have that psssssssht sound then go for vent to atmosphere! buahaha!

Also just as important is having the BOV adjusted properly. If it leaks air you lose boost and this can be noticed especially when driving up hill in top gear, you get a surging effect.
 

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