Fire Ring

[Mark W]

Not to bring heat on this thread but in order to tread lightly means just that - nothing worse than finding rocks all piled up in some remote location with a bunch of ashes left behind- It is just plain trash . The river runners and everyone else in between who want to leave no trace. Have a fire on a small pan then either pack out the ashes or bury them deep... Something to think about when you are out in those remote locations

If you're responding to my comments... I submit that you haven't taken into account the environment and the levels of usage that I am refering to.

I didn't say that we left rocks piled up. Usually we don't. After dousing and scattering the ashes there aren't often any stacked rocks left. But if we do leave a fire ring at OUR camp where we are the only people to ever see it and where we know we will be back again every year then what makes that a problem? We don't have any greenies pretending that no one has been here before them and looking for reason to get PO'd where we make our campsites. We don't see any "river runners" 'cause these are long, gentle and unchallenging rivers, not short, easily accessible excitment runs. And there's no way to put in except by helicoptor or maybe someone like us to haul them to the headwaters. The "everyone else in between" is pretty much US. You won't run across any hikers or bicylists or horsemen there.

Actually we ARE river runners sometimes when we can work out the logistics of getting all the rigs in and back out to the highway and the river is big enough to justify it. It's a pleasant change of travel mode. But we don't mind seeing our footprints and such.

A few hunters, trappers and small scale gold miners also using motorized transport (planes, airboats or 4x4s) to reach the same general areas are the only other folks that you will meet there. They understand the realities of this environment and most (if not all) of them leave a lot more of a footprint than we do in any case. And they're included in the "dozen" or so users that I refered to. On review I understated the numbers though. If you include all of the hunters and the trappers that hit the areas I'm speaking of there might be 2-3 dozen that use each of them. But that also spreads the use out over the entire year. I doubt that you will ever find more than a dozen there at any one time except if we take a large group in (8-10 people).

Making a fire to keep 6 guys warm and cook a meal or two... in a pan?

Burying the ashes happens as often as scattering them. Depends on the terrain. But hauling them out??? Never even heard that suggested. Why would you want to do that? And why would you consider ashes "trash"?


Mark...

 

[loquito]

Well I am up Here with Mark. The one time I did get to go wheelin the fire pit was not noticable when we were done, the only evidence that we had been there at all was the peices of my headlight glass left behind

We have to haul our trash in some places up here, and people use burn barrels a bunch to. the dump inspects the barrells everytime becouse some barrels that the owners said were cold for days reignited and burned up the dumps giant dumpsters. I think I'd be chicken to haul ashs in my truck

Are some of the places you go requiring fire rings?

When I was a young Boy Scout type we used rings made of rocks

Sometimes we even pee'd on them to put them out in the morning , boy what a smell that was

 

[desertdude]

Why would you want to do that? And why would you consider ashes "trash"?

Mark W - I was not directing my post to anyone specific just speaking about a Leave no Trace - Tread lightly approach. Anything that man leaves behind that was not there before "can be percieved as trash" and/or any scares left by man. This may sound extreme since nature can also burn and scare. And yes most of this really matters when there is heavy man traffic. Just posting another view point on the fire ring subject, not trying to preach

 

[Grouseman]

Guys,

I will camping in a State Forest in Michigan. On their site they suggest a fire ring for safety. I had not thought of a ring. Usually when camping I use rocks like others have suggested. I will say this, that when I camp this year, I will bury my ashes, remove all rocks formed for a ring, and try to make it look like I wasn't there. Before I left the rocks. It is nice to go to remote areas and not see many signs that man or woman has been there. Thanks for all advice. Happy Camping.

SS

 

[haystax]

Ixnay on the aluminum. You get the fire much more than warm and it will melt, leaving your steak and taters in the coals, along with the aluminum slag.

I wondered about that possibility, I should have been more specific about the intended use, just a stand for coffee pots and boiling a little water or setting the aluminum nesting pots and pans - so far they haven't melted in 20 years of use, neither has my aluminum dutch oven.

I've got a great steel mesh "cage" for grilling steaks, just turn the entire thing over and no chance of your meal falling in the fire


My opinion about the rock rings - what's the big deal, you drive somewhere on a road or a useable trail and then worry about seeing human impacts on the land in the forms of fire rings??? WTF???

Is a stack of rocks more of a scar than the road you used to get there?

Most of the real desolate and pristine scenery I have ever camped in has fire restrictions and no roads - who is going to carry a fire ring in their backpack?

Almost every decent camping spot in my area has been utilized as such for 100 years - the fire rings and stack rocks and log sites are almost historic places now, you would have a lot of older people pissed off if you demolished thier picnic spots to "leave no trace"

Different methods for different locations that's all...

 

[Grouseman]

Haystack,

Good points. We all understand your comparision of the roads vs. the campfire sites. If you see a road why not a campfire ring? I guess less impact is better right? This thread has made me re-think impact a little. I am going to clean up the fire pit area when I leave because I will have had less impact on the land. Just doing my part. I love the Great Outdoors and I will do my small part in trying to keep it cleaner.

SS

SS

 

[Mark W]

Guys,

I will camping in a State Forest in Michigan. On their site they suggest a fire ring for safety. I had not thought of a ring. Usually when camping I use rocks like others have suggested. I will say this, that when I camp this year, I will bury my ashes, remove all rocks formed for a ring, and try to make it look like I wasn't there. Before I left the rocks. It is nice to go to remote areas and not see many signs that man or woman has been there. Thanks for all advice. Happy Camping.

SS

If your using/required to use a ring for safety, I would assume that windblown sparks are a larger concern that embers and such actually getting knocked away from the fire. I'd look to some sort of screen/mesh to sit atop the grill over the rig to help cut down on this. It will help A LOT. Especially if there is a ring of solidmetal around the edge (creating a closed inner lip around the top of the ring. Some expanded metal screening (steel of course) would hold up to to the heat pretty well. But it will be that much more bulk to carry.

The tyoe of wood you are burning will have a lot if influence on the level of wight paticles are put off to form sparks that the wind can carry. Very dry light woods such as alder and willow can be nasty for sparks. Soft pitchy woods are not as bad, but hardwoods are the best hope to reduce sparks carried by the wind.

Depending on what sort of natural wood supply you will have while you're camping you might be better off just to carry a couple of bags of charcoal with you, or maybe actually bring selected wood with you for your fire. The weight you save in terms of fire ring and associated "stuff" should more than offset the weight of the charcoal/wood.


Mark...




Mark...

 

[Mark W]

I do understand people not wanting to see any sign of use in an area that they go to in order to get away from other people and overt signs of civilzation. If I was leaving an urban area to do my recreating in a fairly unspoiled area that was still accessible to and used by dozens and hundreds of people of a fairly regualr basis then I too would want everything possible done to negate even the smallest signs of use.

But as mentioned above, the paved road with the seeded shoulders that you use to travel into this area, and the gates and ranger stations and such are a LOT more impact to the environment, the wildlife and to the eye than a fire ring or two.



I don't think that anyone here advocating removing fire rings and hauling out ash and such actually thinks that "any sign of man" is automatically a bad thing. But just to play Devil's Advocate for a bit...

If you saw a fire ring left by campers in the back country last week it would bug you. If I placed a nice wooden sign with burnt in lettering telling you that this fire ring was left by aboriginal hunters before western man reached these shore, you'd probably snap a photo of it and tell you co-wrkers how cool it was when you got back to the office.

The National Park service ropes off abandoned mine buldings and doesn't allow anyone to poke around inside of them. Charges you with a crime if you go inside. This make it a historical site and draws people. On other sites they dynamite the buildings of a working mine, one day after the claim expires to ensure that there is no chance of it ever being renewed. And they leave the scattered debris. Seems like both are more impact than a fire ring.

Near one abandoned minesite in a National Park up here hikers (who don't like or maybe even understand) the fact that they are merely hiking down a ROAD have vandalized an early Dodge Power Wagon that predates the park it is now in. It should have been treated like a historic artifact just like the minesite it is associated with. Either that or removed for restoration. Instead it has had all of the glass broken and anti-motorized user comments scratched into the side. If the Parkies had simply posted one of their everpresent markers beside it these idiots would have oohed and aahed and respected it.

A couple of places I camp are abandoned townsites which predate motorized transportation up here and are far from existing roads (physical, not legal). One has several rotting cabin foundations and a food cache still standing. The other has only a couple of rotting cabins. Both have various hundred year old debris scatered around. Parts of old freight sleds, old cans, scraps of cloth. remains of tables/chairs and such. Another couple are abandoned minesites which date back to and before 1900. 50 and 80 miles from the road system. Buildings, machinery, heavy equipment, stables, tack, books and furnishings, wagons and even vehicles (model A Fords brought 80 miles up the river while it was frozen). One has a Victrola in nearly perfect condition with records even! These places are just amazing and the glimpse they provide into what life was like for these people is priceless.

These are signs left by man. Just like my occasional fire ring, but to a much larger degree. I don't consider them trash any more than I consider the Washington Monument or the cliff dwellings of the Pueblo indians to be trash. To be honest a mindset that considers *anything* left by man to be trash seems a bit twisted and disturbed to me.


Okay, enough devil's advocate, ranting, soapbox stomping and thread hijacking for now.


Mark...

 

[desertdude]

well put mark - there appears to be a difference in historical trash as opposed to "new trash"

if it is pottery for 2000 years ago all dumped on the ground you can't touch or remove it legally. If it is your pottery dishes or cups that broke while camping it is trash. Both left by man, both made of clay.

I am no expert but I am into trail clean up with our Copperstate Cruiser club in AZ and you cannot even imagine what we pick up , and how fire rings are left

Any-who seems like this thread was very informative - thanks for allowing me to put in my two bits, and all the opinions posted here

 

[Mark W]

I am no expert but I am into trail clean up with our Copperstate Cruiser club in AZ and you cannot even imagine what we pick up , and how fire rings are left

We're participating in a cleanup in a couple of weeks. Well, actually the Alaska Cruiser Crew has turned into on of the primary driving forces behind it. There is a very pretty valley with some terrain, conditions, challenges and scenery that 99% of the folks in the 48 would ill for the chance to use. Unfortunaely it is close to town and easily accessible. We have our share of dirtbags up here too. The Local ATV club is coming out to pick up trash and the natrional guard will be out with heavy equipment to remove ....35.... yes, ...35... junk cars that have mostly been stolen and taken to the mouth of the valley to be burned. The ACC is going into the woods and tight trails that reach back 20 miles to the glacier to cut up and remove half a dozen hulks that the guard is not willing to take their equipment to (mud, beaver ponds, stream and river crossings and the like where they really don't want to risk getting their stuff stuck...).

It is amazing how a small number of dirtbags can trash an area. If we can not get a handle on this situation then access and use of this area is almost certainly going to be lost. Everyone (even *most* of the greenies) understands just what the problem is and the off road community is not really being blamed for the hulks and trash that winds up out there. But no one can come up with an enforcable solution that still keeps the area open to the public. But even closing it (which none except for a handful of virulent antis wants to see) will be of questionable legality and without enforcement it will not stop the punks doing the damage in the first place.

Oh well, it is depressing to consider the situation at length but at least we will be able to do our part removing some of the scrap... for a week or two before the scum bring more to dump.


Mark...

 

[Brentbba]

Mark W - I was not directing my post to anyone specific just speaking about a Leave no Trace - Tread lightly approach. Anything that man leaves behind that was not there before "can be percieved as trash" and/or any scares left by man. This may sound extreme since nature can also burn and scare. And yes most of this really matters when there is heavy man traffic. Just posting another view point on the fire ring subject, not trying to preach

My point exactly - well said.

Those that are only a few now, may grow in the future. If each of you just leaves one 'fire pit' pretty soon you have a very ugly scene.

 

[desertdude]

Great work Mark - take some photos and spread your group effort on this board somewhere- especially announcing the clean up event could yield some more help

 

[haystax]

What about all the trash dumps around mining camps and charcoal kilns and the $$$$ bottles they left behind that I dig up every now and then? Is a sheepherder's Aspen carving better than my initials?

Who am I to deprive a adventurous soul from excavating a priceless Crown Royal bottle 150 years from now

It's more like long term geo-caching than trail litter and environmental disrespect

 

[Hot Rats]

To lighten this thread up a little:

Bring and peesalot

 

[Grouseman]

Rats,

Was it getting too serious?

 

[duracell]

you can have best of both worlds. Use ametal trash can lid (minus the handle. pack out the coals (obviously make sure they are out first). no burn scar, no litter.

 

[timbercruiser]

Guys,

I will camping in a State Forest in Michigan.
SS

When will you be in Michigan? Let us know, there are 5-6 of us here!

As for leaving a scar after a fire, they will seed in (in Michigan anyway!)

 

[Grouseman]

Timbercrusier,

First or Second week of October. Not firmed up yet which week. Will be in Yooperland...

SS

 

[timbercruiser]

Nothin' like bird hunting in da U.P. eh?

That's where I cut my teeth on bird hunting. Up near Houghton. Went to da tech.