Dual battery + Rear Mod completed (Problems with AHC shocks) (1 Viewer)

[siglo]

@Rich
you are right, the electricians messed up on that I guess.. here's the reply I got from blue sea after I sent them the diagram.. they were very prompt in their reply.. that was pretty cool of them..

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Good Day,



First I must congratulate you on the excellence of your diagram. That took a bit of work to capture all of the images.



The connection marked “Alternator Good Signal” is what I think is meant to be the grounding wire for the 9112. It is colored black on the 9112 and should return to a ground point near the main battery ground. There is another style of relay, which depends on the alternator output signal and does not have its own voltage sensing system. That would be a different product that uses “Alternator Good Signal” as its control.
The sense connection at the switch will be satisfactory for charging when normally running because the sensing leads will see the voltage with little voltage drop. I don’t know the distances and lengths of wire involved, but generally things are close together in these installations. This may be complicated if there are other large loads on the auxiliary battery while the engine is running such as inverters, but I don’t suspect that will be the case on your vehicle.
I have some concern with how it will behave when the winch or another load is connected to just one of the batteries. The engine will be running, charging a battery and the 9112 will detect that and connect the batteries together. If you select the battery which is not connected directly to the alternator to be the source for the winch, when the winch is on, current will flow from the alternator, to the terminals of the first battery, through the wiring to the 9112 and across to the loaded battery. The voltage will be satisfactory for the 9112 to close because of the alternator, but when it closes the load from the winch will cause the voltage to drop and the relay will open. Once open, the charging battery voltage will again rise and the relay will close again.
You can avoid this cycling effect by using the manual battery switch to connect both batteries when the winch is in use or you can use the winch on the auxiliary battery by manually shutting off the 9112 when the winch is in use and then recharge later.
This cycling effect will probably not damage the 9112 or age it materially for the little time that the winch is in use, but it may seem like a problem.
The cycling behavior could be reduced by connecting the 9112 to the individual battery terminals instead of connecting to the battery switch. In this instance you would also want the 9112 to be placed close to the main battery so that those could be the shortest wires.


Please check first on the ground connection.



There are many ways to use your system that will not cause a problem and if the cycling problem occurs it will generally not be damaging. You can run the winch from the main battery and reserve the auxiliary battery as a backup for starting, you can use both batteries in parallel for the winch. You can use the auxiliary battery for the winch, but turn off the charge relay manually for the few minutes when the winch is active. You can let the relay cycle without damage for the few minutes that the winch is actually used, but it may cause additionally heating. In a very hot environment may cause some damage.

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[Rich]

Going by ABYC specs should be no more than 100 amps continuous on 6 AWG inside an engine compartment. Winch may draw 400+ amps on an intermittent basis. So, no, I wouldn't be ok with that gauge wire. I'll be wiring my winch with 2/0 wire, which is still a bit light for 400 amps continuous, but will not be running the winch on a continuous basis. 4/0 would be about the right size for continuous operation, but that seems to me to be overkill for intermittent use.

The real question is how much current will pass through the relay and for what length of time. If the battery switch is always set to All, or the relay disabled during winching, then battery current wil not pass through relay. If a dead battery is paralled with a fully charged battery, then for a period of time a fair amount of current will pass through the relay.

In my install, I plan on installing the relay directly to the battery cables leading from battery to battery switch, which will be 2/0 gauge.

 

[Mike S]

I agree, but if the 4 way switch is always set to ALL, the ACR will not be able to do its primary job - batteries will be combined thru the 4 way switch. So it will be necessary to always remember to set the 4way to ALL, 1, or 2 before winching, and back to OFF when not winching. In addition, the ACR should be turned off during winching, as the BlueSea tech suggested, to avoid the cycling problem.

I believe the ACR is rated for 250 AMPs continuous duty.

M

 

[siglo]

I've updated the above diagram so I wouldn't confuse more people.. I'll stop by the shop today and ask the tech to correct some of the problems with my setup.. thanks Mike and Rich.. you guys have been very helpful

 

[siglo]

I've got another reply from Blue Sea and I thought I'd share it with you guys. This time regarding the wire gauge


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Hello,

The 6 AWG is probably sufficient for charging service, but I don’t know the size of your alternator to be sure. The 6 Ga. will not be sufficient if you want to use the dash mounted switch to manually connect both batteries when the winch is running. When that happens, a share of the winch current will be directed through the 9112 and it could be a large share depending on the charge and condition of the two batteries and the output from the alternator. The 6 AWG is rated for about 100A depending on insulation class and environment. If you want to use the dash mount switch for load paralleling instead of using the large battery switch, then I would upgrade the wire to the same 2 AWG as used in the rest of the system.

The 2 AWG rating depends on the temperature rating of the conductor. The continuous rating of 105C marine grade wire is about 200A outside of the engine compartment and 178A inside. It is not uncommon to use wire at 200% of its rating for such short term service, but if you were to use your winch for an extended time (> 5 minutes), it might get too hot. This might happen if you were assisting others and were resetting the winch repeatedly to bring other vehicles through a rough spot.

More often the wire is selected to be larger because of voltage drop. On boats, the wire lengths are usually longer than on trucks. At 400 Amps, near full load you will have about 0.07 Volts drop per foot of wire. If that is about 10’, you will lose less than one volt and that is probably satisfactory.

In all likelihood you will restrict winch use to only short time periods and with plenty of cool down in between which will help the wires and the motor. The 2 AWG wire size are probably satisfactory for normal short term, intermittent use. I checked the winch manufacturer’s web site and that is what they are recommending.


Best regards,

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: 9112 Installation

Good day,

Thank you for your prompt reply, I really appreciate it.



I will take into consideration all points you have mentioned and pass that info to the tech working on my car. One more thing, about the wire gauge, is the AWG 6 wire I’m using to connect the ACR to the manual switch sufficient?



Also, the winch I’m using has the following specs:

Line Pull Line Speed Motor Pull by layer
Lbs.(Kgs.) FT./min(M/min.) Current layer/Lbs(Kgs.)


0 38(11.6) 70 amps 1/9500(4313)
2000(910) 16.8(5.1) 175 amps 2/8650(4927)
4000(1818) 12.8(3.9) 262 amps 3/7920 (3595)
6000(2720) 10.1(3.1) 335 amps 4/7400(3359)
8000(3630) 8.8(2.7) 425 amps 5/6940(3150)
9500(4310) 7.6(2.3) 480 amps



Is the AWG 2 wire enough for such a load when using the ACR? Or I should look into changing all the wiring to a AWG 1 welding cables?



Regards,

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[polarweasel]

Great thread! Just to clarify, Siglo, common wire gauges run like this, from smaller to larger:

8 - 6 - 4 - 2 - 1/0 - 2/0 - 4/0

1/0 is pronounced "one-aught", by the way. That "/0" on the large sizes is significant, and you'll really confuse people if you leave it out when you're spelling out the gauge...

Now I'll go back to letting the smarter people play.

 

[siglo]

@polarweasel

thanks for the clarification, the diagram is fixed now
things like that confuse me a bit, I guess I should stick to writing it as AWG2 AWG6 etc..

 

[siglo]

*** update ***

I finally have the AHC fixed now..

the sensors were adjusted to the maximum but it wasn't enough so they had to bend the bracket of the sensor a little for the AHC shocks to work well.. in the normal position the rear now is now 6cm higher than normal so they also adjusted the front to be a little higher to accommodate the difference.. the ride seems fine but i can feel the difference in hight when turning.. it's not that bad though.. in high mode the vehicle is raised even more than before.. I'll try to snap some pics when I get the chance..

now all I need is that box from japan that disables the AHC automatic drop down feature.. anybody got the site for that?


one thing is weird now, the IPF driving lights are very weak now that they are connected to the AUX battery.. when I combine the 2 batteries, it gets a little stronger but still weaker that normal.. the driving lights now are weaker than the LC's head lights.. what do you guys think is causing this problem? I'm thinking maybe I have a bad battery or something along those lines.. I'll have the voltage etc checked when I get time..

 

[hoser]

That's great. How's the AHC shocks damping with the OME heavy springs? Do you find the ride still a little bouncy or underdamped? I just want to double check. I'm hesitant to use the heavy springs and torsion bars, although I'd like to.

If you haven't already gotten a differential drop bracket, you really should, to extend the life of your CV joints.

Here is the link for the black box. There are two on the first page. If I understand it correctly, the first one, listed at 34,650Y, uses the OEM switch on the center console to change heights. The second switch, listed at 10,500Y can lock the height in place but uses supplied button? I'm not sure. Hopefully somebody out there can translate it better. They can be found HERE.

Slee Offroad is supposed to have their own version coming out this summer as well.

 

[siglo]

Thanks for the link hoser..

I'm planning on getting a diff drop kit soon.. OE T-bars are great.. I found them better than stock on and off road.. the low setting is different with the OE t-bars.. it takes a long time for the LC to lower itself.. but when you lift it back to the normal height it jumps up into position (I hope that made sense).. about the OE rear springs.. I removed the heavy duty OE springs and installed the medium to heavy load OE springs (I'll try to get the part number when I get the chance).. after the AHC is adjusted, no more bouncy end (it's still bouncy on the low setting however which I don't use).. I didn't take the LC off road yet.. but now when I hit a speed bump going more that 15 or 20km/h the rear end doesn't react normally.. I don't know how to explain it but I'll try my best.. It feels that the rear tires are not touching the pavement immediately after going over the speed bump but rather catch a little air for a split second then snap back down onto the ground..