Bosch VE Pump interchangeability (5 Viewers)

[Blomdala]

I didn't find anything searching, but I keep wondering, has anyone used a Cummmins 5.9L IP on an HZ/HD? I realize its a larger engine, but if you fit the same timing gear to the pump, i would think the real difference is just the plunger diameter. Especially with all the tuning done on HDs to get more power by increasing plunger diameter to 12mm, it seems that you could instead use a Cummins IP and already be at your larger fuel flow.

Maybe there is no reason to do this for those in the far north because they have more toyota diesel support, but finding 12v cummins parts in USA is much easier/usually cheaper than any toyota diesel.

Just curious if anyone has any insight.

 

[roscoFJ73]

If the pump is set up right , it shouldnt need parts for 300000klms at least. One thing you would have to consider is the distance between the pump housing and engine block is not much on a 1HZ /HD. A larger fuel pump may not physically fit.
Does the Cummins pump turn the same way and sit on the same side? (they probably come in left and right versions?

 

[Blomdala]

If the pump is set up right , it shouldnt need parts for 300000klms at least. One thing you would have to consider is the distance between the pump housing and engine block is not much on a 1HZ /HD. A larger fuel pump may not physically fit.
Does the Cummins pump turn the same way and sit on the same side? (they probably come in left and right versions?

What are normal wear parts? Just seals? Or is it common for the plunger to wear also?

It does look like the cummins pump mounts with 3 bolts rather than 2. And it is on the same side, but I'm not sure if the rotation is the same. I did see one with a 2 bolt mount like the HD pump, but maybe it was a stock photo.

 

[roscoFJ73]

These are the most common places on denso pump for a 1HZ. The wear on housing means a whole new housing. And yes the pump plunger wears out. Some older diesel mechanics reckon the 1HZ pump gets too hot and expands. The expansion causes friction and wears them out faster than similar pumps on similar sized engines.
As the pump recycles its excess fuel back to the tank to cool it down, I think it would be advisable to keep the tank as full as possible.
Its just conjecture. But would be great if someone had the time to measure the temperature differences.

Another thing that cause heavy wear and tear is hard driving on bad roads and hard acceleration.

 

[Blomdala]

These are the most common places on denso pump for a 1HZ. The wear on housing means a whole new housing. And yes the pump plunger wears out. Some older diesel mechanics reckon the 1HZ pump gets too hot and expands. The expansion causes friction and wears them out faster than similar pumps on similar sized engines.
As the pump recycles its excess fuel back to the tank to cool it down, I think it would be advisable to keep the tank as full as possible.
Its just conjecture. But would be great if someone had the time to measure the temperature differences.

Another thing that cause heavy wear and tear is hard driving on bad roads and hard acceleration.

View attachment 2161147

This is REALLY great information. I didn't even think about the housing becoming worn but there are clearly components which are moving in it which could do that. That would be great to do a little running test with a full vs a low tank of fuel for cooling, I would think you're logic is spot on, as long as the fuel has enough time in there to transfer some heat.

I think whats been most mysterious to me is people mentioning, 100k, 200k etc mileage needing pumps rebuilt. I understand injectors, from crud to tip damage and especially the spring tension lowering over time. But when it comes to the pump, aside from an obvious malfuntion like leaking or abnormal engine function, what are you noticing to decide you will ask a shop to rebuild a pump. When my grandpas 12v 6BT had it pump redone (he clocked about 350k mi.) he just figured it was time, and said that the truck did run "better" after getting it rebuilt, but it didn't run "bad" before hand. I'll stick my nose in the 1hz repair book, but for example on an injector, you check pop pressure and spray pattern and leaks. Pretty straight forward. Does anyone check the pressure out of a pump before going to reman? If the pressure is in spec I would think that means there is no need for a rebuild.

Just thinking out loud here. I'm new to the diesel world, and especially Toyota which don't have near the amount of tribal knowledge floating around the country. But after finding a few Bosch VE manuals and training guides I'm getting a better handle on the pump side of things!

 

[KiwiDingo]

Saw this guy the other day putting an inline 12ht pump on his 1HD. He's doing lots of other crazy stuff too, pretty interesting to check out. He's also running 3 turbos too which you can see at the end of the clip!

 

[Blomdala]

Saw this guy the other day putting an inline 12ht pump on his 1HD. He's doing lots of other crazy stuff too, pretty interesting to check out. He's also running 3 turbos too which you can see at the end of the clip!

I like that guy already! Triple turbo.... That is just madness!

I was thinking about a 12ht pump, it seems the general consensus is that inline pumps never die/get weak. If that's the case maybe a 12ht inline and 1hz/hd is the ultimate reliability match. That pump sure looks huge on there ha.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Yeah he's a pretty cool guy, he has some crazy good ideas and enjoys doing things that people think are crazy. Check him out, he made a Facebook page of his build thread which has lots more videos about what he's doing/done.

VolToy-VolTrailer. By Knudsen Built.

Here everything with VolToy can be discussed and related topics. Ie: Portal axles. 6X6, engines, transmission, Xfer. My nickname is Knudsen. This is my project where the goal is an approved and...

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[Blomdala]

Yeah he's a pretty cool guy, he has some crazy good ideas and enjoys doing things that people think are crazy. Check him out, he made a Facebook page of his build thread which has lots more videos about what he's doing/done.

VolToy-VolTrailer. By Knudsen Built.

Here everything with VolToy can be discussed and related topics. Ie: Portal axles. 6X6, engines, transmission, Xfer. My nickname is Knudsen. This is my project where the goal is an approved and...

www.facebook.com

Perfect, some educational time for my Friday night! Thank you!

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

I didn't find anything searching, but I keep wondering, has anyone used a Cummmins 5.9L IP on an HZ/HD? I realize its a larger engine, but if you fit the same timing gear to the pump, i would think the real difference is just the plunger diameter. Especially with all the tuning done on HDs to get more power by increasing plunger diameter to 12mm, it seems that you could instead use a Cummins IP and already be at your larger fuel flow.

Maybe there is no reason to do this for those in the far north because they have more toyota diesel support, but finding 12v cummins parts in USA is much easier/usually cheaper than any toyota diesel.

Just curious if anyone has any insight.

1HD-T's come with a 12mm pump. From what I've seen it has all the fuel potential that motor could need.

The early 1HZ on the other hand came with a 10mm pump, which does become a limitation beyond about 160rwhp I hear? Pushing a 1HZ beyond that is asking for heat issues anyhow, but I suppose a 12mm head/plunger upgrade would probably not be that hard for an injection shop. Or having an entire 1HDT pump setup for the 1HZ.

Some of the later 1HZ motors came with an 11mm pump. Not sure how hard that is to get ahold of.

One thing I've been wondering is if the Chinese knock-off Denso pump head/plungers are any good? I've been considering a 12mm upgrade. I've got a spare injection pump I was going to use as a test subject. In my case I would be putting a 1KZTE 12mm head/plunger on a 2LTE pump. For the price it's almost worth just trying.

Here's an example of a 1HDT pump head/plunger on alibaba:

This product is no longer available.

This product is no longer available.

www.alibaba.com

 

[Blomdala]

1HD-T's come with a 12mm pump. From what I've seen it has all the fuel potential that motor could need.

The early 1HZ on the other hand came with a 10mm pump, which does become a limitation beyond about 160rwhp I hear? Pushing a 1HZ beyond that is asking for heat issues anyhow, but I suppose a 12mm head/plunger upgrade would probably not be that hard for an injection shop. Or having an entire 1HDT pump setup for the 1HZ.

Some of the later 1HZ motors came with an 11mm pump. Not sure how hard that is to get ahold of.

One thing I've been wondering is if the Chinese knock-off Denso pump head/plungers are any good? I've been considering a 12mm upgrade. I've got a spare injection pump I was going to use as a test subject. In my case I would be putting a 1KZTE 12mm head/plunger on a 2LTE pump. For the price it's almost worth just trying.

Here's an example of a 1HDT pump head/plunger on alibaba:

This product is no longer available.

This product is no longer available.

www.alibaba.com

You would think there is some way to measure the quality of that plunger and head. I mean I’m sure the material alloy is alright, so if you could measure the tolerances between the two and know if you will have a problem it not ha

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

You would think there is some way to measure the quality of that plunger and head. I mean I’m sure the material alloy is alright, so if you could measure the tolerances between the two and know if you will have a problem it not ha

You are worried the opposite of what I am. I'm worried more about the material than the precision....

 

[HandForged]

Building your pump for more fuel/ higher pressures is the best and easiest thing to do. Modifying an injector pump from a cummins would most likely work, with the caveat that it would take a large amount of work. From the sound of it, not work that you can do yourself. There is a diesel pump builder in Canada "Giles Diesel". Google it and Email him, it will be time and money well spent to get your pump in his hands. He's almost a magician. Be up front with him and tell him what you're looking for realistically and he will help you get there. You'll likely spend less money having him build your pump and you have the advantage of knowing it will work the first time. It won't be cheap, to my mind it will likely cost around 1k plus shipping for the work. On the other hand a decent rebuilt cummins injector will cost more than that. Whether you want to use the Bosch VE or the P71000....

 

[Blomdala]

Building your pump for more fuel/ higher pressures is the best and easiest thing to do. Modifying an injector pump from a cummins would most likely work, with the caveat that it would take a large amount of work. From the sound of it, not work that you can do yourself. There is a diesel pump builder in Canada "Giles Diesel". Google it and Email him, it will be time and money well spent to get your pump in his hands. He's almost a magician. Be up front with him and tell him what you're looking for realistically and he will help you get there. You'll likely spend less money having him build your pump and you have the advantage of knowing it will work the first time. It won't be cheap, to my mind it will likely cost around 1k plus shipping for the work. On the other hand a decent rebuilt cummins injector will cost more than that. Whether you want to use the Bosch VE or the P71000....

That’s really not bad. Best quote I’ve seen in the USA is 1100 for a rebuild. The thing I always worry about is experience. As you said, that is worth the cost!

 

[HandForged]

That’s really not bad. Best quote I’ve seen in the USA is 1100 for a rebuild. The thing I always worry about is experience. As you said, that is worth the cost!

I know lots of pump builders in the US....lots, I send all of mine to Giles. Not because I don't trust the local folks or that they don't do good enough job it's just that Giles is a master at building pumps and he knows exactly what to do to wring every last ounce of power out of one. He's the name to know in performance pumps.

 

[mudgudgeon]

You would think there is some way to measure the quality of that plunger and head. I mean I’m sure the material alloy is alright, so if you could measure the tolerances between the two and know if you will have a problem it not ha

The thing I would be worried about would be material quality. A small difference in material quality could have a huge impact on wear within the pump


The hd-ft pump is what you want for more fuelling. It has 12mm plunger and different cams. In stock form it's capable of delivering 50% more fuel than a hd-t pump between 2400 and 4800rpm.

You can also have any of the Denso VE rotary pumps built to hd-ft spec, or put in 13mm plunger.
Isuzu used 13mm plunger in some of their trucks that have VE pumps.
Also Yanmar marine equivalent to hd-ft uses a 13mm plunger.

12mm plunger is approx 15% larger than an 11mm plunger
13mm is approx 15% larger than a 12mm plunger.

 

[roscoFJ73]

I mean I’m sure the material alloy is alright,

Im not so confident. It requIres expensive and hard to get metals to make these alloys and what they have , the military get first go. Chinese companies often skimp on it. Some of their biggest engine manufactures can not even get their cylinder walls to last on their diesel engines.