Any real plumber or somebody experienced in bathroom plumbing?

[e9999]

OK, so it looked like I might have a leak under a toilet, so I took the thing off. (Nice way to use up a vacation weekend... ) First time I took it off since I moved in. Fairly recent house (18 years old).
To my surprise, the flange that sits on top of the closet bend is not flush or above the floor as expected, it's lower by 1.2"... And whoever put that thing together stacked 2 (!) wax gaskets on top of each other to try and bridge the gap between the flange and the horn. Clearly it was not waterproof but I am amazed it didn't leak more than it did. Seems pretty screwed up to me. I tried gently to remove the flange to see underneath and maybe raise it but it isn't budging. I don't want to mess things up more by prying it off.
Questions:
- is this common or did they screw up the installation?
- from a visual inspection, it looks like the flange was fitted on the cast iron drain pipe by melting lead between the 2. Is that possible or even usual? If so, so much for removing it, I guess...
- what would be the best way to bridge that tall gap? Are there thicker wax gaskets with plastic lips than the usual 1"? Or rubber / metal rings I could use as inserts (something like a spring spacer )? Or put a new flange on top of the other one with some sealant in between?
- the flange says 4x4 on it D) does that mean it has a 4" long shoulder going down around the cast iron pipe? (Can't see it, there is mortar around it.)

other thoughts on how to fix this?

TIA

 

[osagecruiser]

let me try to answer a few of your questions....i have a question first....does the house have a basement?...look to see if the flange is fastened to the floor...remove anchors and try to gently raise the flange...if it raises shim it up using some flat washers and reinstall the anchors....is you can't raise it short of tearing it out and starting over just reinstall 2 new wax rings...i use the kind with the plastic funnel/gasket on it...it will be fine....you would be surprised how often this occurs...sometimes during a concrete pour...waste line gets displaced...sometimes just slopy workmanship...it has been this way for 18 years so the double wax ring will do the trick...good luck

osagecruiser

 

[archie]

I thought they made extension flange kits and a search found one similar. Toilet Flange Extension Kits at AZ Partsmaster
I think most plumbing suppliers would have it.

 

[e9999]

let me try to answer a few of your questions....i have a question first....does the house have a basement?...look to see if the flange is fastened to the floor...remove anchors and try to gently raise the flange...if it raises shim it up using some flat washers and reinstall the anchors....is you can't raise it short of tearing it out and starting over just reinstall 2 new wax rings...i use the kind with the plastic funnel/gasket on it...it will be fine....you would be surprised how often this occurs...sometimes during a concrete pour...waste line gets displaced...sometimes just slopy workmanship...it has been this way for 18 years so the double wax ring will do the trick...good luck

osagecruiser

thanks.
This is a second floor toilet. The anchors are rusted in (as was the flange). I guess I could drill them out, but this lead sealing looks pretty much final. If I am to redo the double wax bit, I'll try to melt them together somehow so there is no seam between the 2. And also waterproof the entire outside of the flange into the floor. I could also try to make a pipe extension of some sort...

 

[e9999]

I thought they made extension flange kits and a search found one similar. Toilet Flange Extension Kits at AZ Partsmaster
I think most plumbing suppliers would have it.

ooooh, that looks like the easiest way to go. Well, assuming I can seal these things together properly... Great find! thanks. Well, I guess if it is a standard item, this issue must be relatively frequent. I guess maybe with new raised flooring put in and such...


ah, I also found some repair and adjustable flanges that seem like they might work. Things are looking better... A bunch of measuring and some luck and I might find something

 

[Koffer]

thanks.
If I am to redo the double wax bit, I'll try to melt them together somehow so there is no seam between the 2.

You would need to do this with wax rings you got from my father as they would be hard as a rock (he still uses s*** from when my great grandfather ,who died in '79 bought out a hardware store in the 60s) I never knew you could solder a bunch of copper pipes joints without leaks the 1st time till I bought new flux and solder and didnt use his crap

 

[-Spike-]

The double rings are fairly common. The lead joint is actually a cork seal with molten lead poured over it to keep it in place, but I thought they stopped doing that around 1823 or so. If you can use it as-is you'll save a lot of headaches, otherwise you'll need to cut the drain pipe downstream somewhere and graft in ABS (black plastic) pipe via a rubber coupling made for PVC/ABS/CI (cast iron). Dunno anything about the extension kits, that might be the way to go if you don't want to use two wax rings. Also, the wax rings do come in a thicker variety, and as mentioned above some have a plastic 'funnel' flange, also some have the flange plus a urethane core (my personal favorite, the urethane tries to expand after installation giving a better seal than just wax, which compresses without expanding back against the sealing surfaces). Whatever you use, it just needs to seal- it ain't rocket science. Be aware that because gravity usually pulls the water into the drain, often a leak is only discovered when the drain is 'slow', causing the water to back up and put pressure on the seal. In a perfect world, you wouldn't need a seal at all- the drain is huge at 3-4 inches, the outlet of the toilet is 2 1/8", the water should just fall down the drain, so with this in mind you might want to consider having the drains snaked while you have the toilet off.

-Spike

 

[e9999]

The double rings are fairly common. The lead joint is actually a cork seal with molten lead poured over it to keep it in place, but I thought they stopped doing that around 1823 or so. If you can use it as-is you'll save a lot of headaches, otherwise you'll need to cut the drain pipe downstream somewhere and graft in ABS (black plastic) pipe via a rubber coupling made for PVC/ABS/CI (cast iron). Dunno anything about the extension kits, that might be the way to go if you don't want to use two wax rings. Also, the wax rings do come in a thicker variety, and as mentioned above some have a plastic 'funnel' flange, also some have the flange plus a urethane core (my personal favorite, the urethane tries to expand after installation giving a better seal than just wax, which compresses without expanding back against the sealing surfaces). Whatever you use, it just needs to seal- it ain't rocket science. Be aware that because gravity usually pulls the water into the drain, often a leak is only discovered when the drain is 'slow', causing the water to back up and put pressure on the seal. In a perfect world, you wouldn't need a seal at all- the drain is huge at 3-4 inches, the outlet of the toilet is 2 1/8", the water should just fall down the drain, so with this in mind you might want to consider having the drains snaked while you have the toilet off.

-Spike

maybe the lead pouring installer was an oldtimer, eh? Lead + cast iron pipe + too low... (why would they use cast iron, especially at a second story?)

I have to go and check out what's available at a good plumbing shop.

Your point on possible slow drain is a good one, I'll check that by pouring a bucket of water in quickly, easy while it's all off...

thx

 

[-Spike-]

That should do the trick. You can use a garden hose to flush the pipe out too. Make sure you have some type of shut-off at the hose end- don't shove an open-ended hose down the pipe and then run outside and crank it up.

-Spike

 

[e9999]

That should do the trick. You can use a garden hose to flush the pipe out too. Make sure you have some type of shut-off at the hose end- don't shove an open-ended hose down the pipe and then run outside and crank it up.

-Spike

spoken from first hand experience?

 

[e9999]

did some research on this extender issue
turns out that there are plumbing forums with lots of info, kinda like Mud.

Seems like the Fluidmaster "waxless ring" is the best solution. It's an extender that bridges the gap between the horn and the existing drain pipe, with a tube that goes inside the pipe, therefore allowing for any number of gaps up to 3" or so, apparently. Eliminates the wax altogether, allows for uneven or tilted flanges etc.

I think I'll try that. Seems better than the stack of rings.

 

[archie]

tell us how well the install goes with the product. I like fluidmaster products and use their "float/post" tank filler/upper thingy all the time when replacing those "ball float at the end of a metal rod" thingy that are too problematic. You can tell I don't do alot of plumbing .