A Couple of Frame Questions Please

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I just read a bit more about the hot-dip process and it is at 450 oC or almost 850 oF. It sounds like it might not be a good fit for a frame, but I will keep researching.
There are a few folks that have HDG frames. I do not know their specific results. I saw one high-end builder claim they did it.

@mudgudgeon and @Malleus are both correct.

From my 40+ years of fabrication experience (Industrial sheet metal and structural mechanical equipment), whenever we Hot Dip Galvanize (HDG) structure, we must allow for warp and twist. It can be significant. Yes, the 815°F to 850°F is correct. Depending on the alloy of steel, the annealing temperature of the metal can range from 1350°F to 1770°F. The closer you get to those temperatures means that the "strength" and "ability to flex and return" will be affected. This is metallurgy and how you work steel and use the alloys and heat treating to alter the flexibility and strength depending on application.
Also, the "shinyness" of the HDG can vary greatly based on how old the zinc is in the vendors tank. A fresh tank can produce some parts that are very shiny and look new. A well used tank will produce parts that are a dull gray and look like they have been weathered for 20 years when they just came out. It is totally a hit or miss based on the vendor and how often they change their tank.

If this were my own frame, I would NOT HDG it due to the severe risk of warp and twist. Now, if money was no object and I had direct access to a frame machine and all data, I would consider it, knowing that it would take a considerable amount of care to get the frame back to straight and square.

Powder coating:
If this was a show car only that will never see rain or dirt, I would consider doing powder coat. In order to PROPERLY do powder coating, ALL edges, corners, and points MUST be rounded smoothly in order to keep the surface tension of the powder coating even during the liquifying process. Otherwise, the surface tension pulls the plastic too thin on the corners and edges and it will become very thin and it will fail on the edge. Once powder coat fails, it allows moisture under it (even just relative humidity) and it will continue to peel and flake, with no acceptable repair.

If I were to do my frame, I would blast it near white (SSPC-SP10) and then coat it with an inorganic zinc coating, then a coating of epoxy, then a topcoat of polyurethane or epoxy. This also ends up as a VERY thick coating (about 12 mils TDFT or 0.012" thick)

When we do equipment that is near the coast or in a "marine" environment, this is the system we use. This is NOT for immersion service, such as under water.

At the very least, I would do near white blast SSPC-SP10, then do two coats of Sherwin Williams Macropoxy 646, then a topcoat of a polyurethane or epoxy in semi-gloss black. John Deere uses Blitz Black and is a HD agricultural paint that seems to hold up well and is a gloss finish black.

Any epoxy you get should be a bonding epoxy. The key is in the material preparation and the prompt application of primer in a timely manner and in a humidity controlled environment.
 
And I thought this was going to be straightforward. Well, I am thankful for all of the feedback.

I like to look at as many angles and options that I can, so this will be fun.
 
Better to learn now than with peeling powder coat and corrosion issues...

I'd personally be investigating the condition of the frame regarding rust, cracks and condition of the factory coating. If it's in good condition overall, especially relating to rust, then I'd consider cleaning it up and just addressing any small spots/areas as need vs. doing a full strip and re-coat. Many Southern, well kept 80s have frames that clean up well and look great. Look for examples from folks that have had dry-ice blasting done and the results are impressive.

I would definitely reinforce the common crack/failure points around the steering gear and that will require some weld and coating work but I'm a fan of good prep followed by quality prime/paint options like @BILT4ME mentions above because they are proven and also are easier to monitor over time and to repair when needed.

two coats of Sherwin Williams Macropoxy 646, then a topcoat of a polyurethane or epoxy in semi-gloss black. John Deere uses Blitz Black and is a HD agricultural paint that seems to hold up well and is a gloss finish black.

I don't really know what your goals are but cleaning and preserving the original coating on the frame, if it's in good condition, could serve a lot of goals including accurate restoration, minimizing risk and reducing time/costs.
 
My goals are to rebuild the entire vehicle as well as I can with a halfway reasonable cost. My current total expenditure is way overboard, but what to do...

In my eyes, my original frame was not salvageable due to bad rust. I just bought a used frame from Alabama that is so nice compared to my old one. This is the frame I am now deciding what to do regarding refinishing.
 
FWIW, I have a friend who refinished an older truck years ago. He prepped the surface with Houghto-Prep ZP4 (Zirconium phosphate). He still raves about the results. The datasheet attached has the info.
 

Attachments

FWIW, I have a friend who refinished an older truck years ago. He prepped the surface with Houghto-Prep ZP4 (Zirconium phosphate). He still raves about the results. The datasheet attached has the info.
Interesting.
 
There are a few folks that have HDG frames. I do not know their specific results. I saw one high-end builder claim they did it.

@mudgudgeon and @Malleus are both correct.

From my 40+ years of fabrication experience (Industrial sheet metal and structural mechanical equipment), whenever we Hot Dip Galvanize (HDG) structure, we must allow for warp and twist. It can be significant. Yes, the 815°F to 850°F is correct. Depending on the alloy of steel, the annealing temperature of the metal can range from 1350°F to 1770°F. The closer you get to those temperatures means that the "strength" and "ability to flex and return" will be affected. This is metallurgy and how you work steel and use the alloys and heat treating to alter the flexibility and strength depending on application.
Also, the "shinyness" of the HDG can vary greatly based on how old the zinc is in the vendors tank. A fresh tank can produce some parts that are very shiny and look new. A well used tank will produce parts that are a dull gray and look like they have been weathered for 20 years when they just came out. It is totally a hit or miss based on the vendor and how often they change their tank.

If this were my own frame, I would NOT HDG it due to the severe risk of warp and twist. Now, if money was no object and I had direct access to a frame machine and all data, I would consider it, knowing that it would take a considerable amount of care to get the frame back to straight and square.

Powder coating:
If this was a show car only that will never see rain or dirt, I would consider doing powder coat. In order to PROPERLY do powder coating, ALL edges, corners, and points MUST be rounded smoothly in order to keep the surface tension of the powder coating even during the liquifying process. Otherwise, the surface tension pulls the plastic too thin on the corners and edges and it will become very thin and it will fail on the edge. Once powder coat fails, it allows moisture under it (even just relative humidity) and it will continue to peel and flake, with no acceptable repair.

If I were to do my frame, I would blast it near white (SSPC-SP10) and then coat it with an inorganic zinc coating, then a coating of epoxy, then a topcoat of polyurethane or epoxy. This also ends up as a VERY thick coating (about 12 mils TDFT or 0.012" thick)

When we do equipment that is near the coast or in a "marine" environment, this is the system we use. This is NOT for immersion service, such as under water.

At the very least, I would do near white blast SSPC-SP10, then do two coats of Sherwin Williams Macropoxy 646, then a topcoat of a polyurethane or epoxy in semi-gloss black. John Deere uses Blitz Black and is a HD agricultural paint that seems to hold up well and is a gloss finish black.

Any epoxy you get should be a bonding epoxy. The key is in the material preparation and the prompt application of primer in a timely manner and in a humidity controlled environment.

Outstanding response buddy!
Aligns with what I've been told, but much more succinctly explained.
 
I am constantly impressed by not only the wealth of knowledge and experience on this site, but the willingness of those who have them to share. If you could bottle this, you could solve world peace.
 
I am constantly impressed by not only the wealth of knowledge and experience on this site, but the willingness of those who have them to share. If you could bottle this, you could solve world peace.
I second that.
 
Most of the potential rebuild/refinish options focus on the exterior of the frame for the obvious reason - it is accessible. In my old frame, the external surfaces were badly rusted, but so were the interior surfaces to the point that bolts would not come loose and captive nuts on the inside would twist off or were rusted into nothing. Because of this, my goal with my replacement frame was to consider the interior surfaces as much as the exterior.

The HDG option is likely not an option, but there is another zinc possibility, which is electroplating. Has anyone tried this?
 
In regard to the un-used frame openings, as mentioned some are grab points at the factory. Others are strategically placed to absorb or redirect energy in a heavy collision. Not quite a crumple zone, but helps to ensure energy movement through the frame is controlled.
 
Thanks for all of the feedback everyone.

I am still sorting out options for my original questions, but I found an item on my frame that I have not been able to figure out. I hope someone can help with this.

The passenger side of what I think is called the lateral support rod, was surrounded with tape and there is a small area where something rubbed against the lateral support rod creating a small area of wear. It is quite small, and I doubt a problem of any sort, but I was wondering what could have caused this.

I have attached two photos showing this area.

Does anyone know what might have been going on here?
IMG_6035.webp
IMG_6054.webp
 
Hello there. I am looking into this DeltaVS job right now and I have a couple questions for you. Were your 4 original OEM bolts long enough to allow full threading for the nuts? I have not yet done any welding or grinding, but to me, they seem like they will be a bit short, and longer versions of those bolts might just be unobtainable.

Also, since this is frame off, how were you able to ensure that the smaller lateral bracket cleared the pitman arm through full rotation?
 
Hello there. I am looking into this DeltaVS job right now and I have a couple questions for you. Were your 4 original OEM bolts long enough to allow full threading for the nuts? I have not yet done any welding or grinding, but to me, they seem like they will be a bit short, and longer versions of those bolts might just be unobtainable.

Also, since this is frame off, how were you able to ensure that the smaller lateral bracket cleared the pitman arm through full rotation?
Yes, the factory bolts were long enough. I had to grind the inside tubes a bit but I got full engagement without issue.

I did have to mount the steering box to confirm clearance on the pitman but it was easy to verify.
 
Yes, the factory bolts were long enough. I had to grind the inside tubes a bit but I got full engagement without issue.

I did have to mount the steering box to confirm clearance on the pitman but it was easy to verify.
Thanks. I will be trying this soon. My steering gear and pitman are from Red-Head and are the upgraded versions from the 105 I think, but hopefully the overall size is the same as my originals.
 
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