Longfields no fit

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T

theo

Joined
Feb 19, 2002
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New 27 spline Longfields in '76 FJ40. Kurt's knuckle kit installed (13 lbs preload). Martacks are placed so the axles ride as far inboard as possible and still make good seal contact. Stock inner c-clips on inner axles are in place, no outer c-clips used. The Longs are fully seated against the c-clips.

It looks to me like the Longs are not engaging the axles deep enough. When I try to bolt the spindles on the axles bind up about 1/8" too soon.

What do you think? I'll call Bobby today but I wanted to ask here first in case I'm missing something obvious.

1st pic - Longfield with an axle inserted
birfs 1smb.webp
 
2nd pic - Stock birfield with same axle. Caliper is unchanged.
birfs 2smb.webp
 
3rd pic - Hard to see but the stock Birfield (on the left) has a flat area machined into the inner race for the c-clip to ride on. The Longfield (on the right) doesn't have it.
birfs 3cropsmb.webp
 
I think you put the martack in the wrong place.
 
The recommended distance is 1 3/8 - 1 1/2" from the end of the shaft (Direct form Bobby.) I have them at 1 1/2" and the seals ride all the way on the outboard edge of the sealing surface. If I move the martacks any farther the axles will slide in past the seals.
 
I am still betting that the inner is not sliding in fully.

There have been a lot of these stuffed into 40 and mini axles.

But do give Bobby a call and chat with him. He is pretty mello and a great guy..
 
Thanks, Mace.

Here's another thought: I used the flat side of a big socket to install the inner seals. So the outside surface of the seals are flush with the surface of the housing (hope that makes sense). I wonder if I should drive the seals further into the housing? Didn't even think of it. That would let me slide the axles further in. Have to look at that tonight.

Will call Bobby. Just wanted to give him time in the morning before I hound him.
 
Just for giggles, why did you do the martack and not the retaining ring in the Birf??? Those Birfs can be taken apart if an issue arises..

You can try to tap them in a bit more. see what happens, just don't bend them or they will seep..

Then you will have gooey knuckles...
 
If the inner axle seal is flush with the end of the housing, it is seated, and will not move in any further.


:beer:
 
Mace said:
But do give Bobby a call and chat with him. He is pretty mello and a great guy..
Click to expand...
A truer word was never spoken! Just got off the phone with him. This newest batch of inner races are not machined to lie flat against the stock c-clip, so the axle cannot engage the Longfield completely. (This is what I was trying to show in the pics.) If you use his inner axles you don't need that c-clip and the problem doesn't exist.

Bobby is going to machine a set of inner races and send them right out to me. Class act.

Mace said:
Just for giggles, why did you do the martack and not the retaining ring in the Birf??? Those Birfs can be taken apart if an issue arises..
Click to expand...
I didn't realize I could! I just assumed I needed a Martack. Probably would have saved me some "grease" time since the axle wouldn't have gone in far enough for the retaining ring to catch and I would have chased this down before installing. But, it's all good for now.

I'll be back if the new inner races don't solve my problem. Thanks again, fellas. Nothing quite like this place.:beer:
 
AHHHHH, that makes a lot of sence..

You are correct tho, if the axle did not have had a martack then it would have made a big mess..


Right on :)
 
Update - Bobby ground down some inner "stars" for me. They did not solve the problem. The stock axles are still about 1/8" away from going far enough into the new Longfields.

Talked to Bobby a number of times and neither one of us is sure what the hell is going on. Hundreds of 27-spline Longs on stock axles in the past, BUT this is a new design and there is definitely something different about them.

One thing Bobby mentioned is that I could take the c-clip off the axle and use a Martack on the outer end to keep it from floating outboard. Instead I ended up with chromo inners. Might never need them, so I was a little reluctant to spend the money, but it was an easy solution. :)

Good to go now and on to other repairs, but I can't help wondering what caused my symptoms. I have the bearing cages and stars oriented correctly according to Bobby. Can't think what else I might have done. It is definitely not out of the question that I was doing something wrong; wouldn't be the first time. Beats the heck out of me.

theo
 
I realize I'm a bit late on this, but did you try to take the new birf apart and turn the star around? When I took mine apart, I initially put one back together the wrong way and I can see how it would make the whole deal a little bit longer since the contact surface is off-center.

Obviously, that should have been resolved with the new stars, but I didn't see it mentioned...
 
Yeah, we thought of that too. In fact, the new star design is deeper on the "back" side - for added strength I assume - so it was really hard to get it wrong. I did have one of the cages in upside down at one point, but I caught that mistake early and corrected it before I raised the alarm. :)
 
So did you put the chromo shafts next to the stock ones and compare them?


I do not see how installing chromo inners fixed this....It does not add up.
 
Poser said:
So did you put the chromo shafts next to the stock ones and compare them?


I do not see how installing chromo inners fixed this....It does not add up.
Click to expand...

The chromo shafts have a slightly longer seal surface and the splines are shorter on the birf end. The c-clip grooves are the same and the overall length is about the same.

The inner c-clip was designed to keep the axle from riding outboard and jamming against the inside of the birf. Bobby's axles have shorter splines to accomplish this. So the inner c-clip isn't used.

Without the inner c-clip, either axle will slip into the Longfield far enough to position the seal surface correctly. Put the inner c-clip on either axle (chromo OR stock) and it will not go far enough into the Longfield. (But they will both go far enough into the stock birfield.) The Longfield star is too thick to allow it. Bobby realized this as soon as he compared them in his shop. That's why he ground down a pair of stars and sent them to me.

The Longfield stars are designed to capture the outer c-clip and to allow the axle to be inserted and removed without shattering the c-clip, unlike the Toyota stars. So the inner c-clip isn't used and the axle slides in far enough.

Clear as mud?
 
John Smith said:
In the third picture it looks to me like the star and cage are installed backwards. The wide/fat side of the cage should face out and the star protrusions should also face out of the birf.
Click to expand...
The wide/fat side of the cages are indeed facing out. This is not obvious from the pics but I made sure of it.

The stock star has a flat machined into it for the c-clip to ride against and protrusions around the circumfrence. That's how it is installed in the pic.

The Longfield star has mild protrusions on the out-facing side and very large ones on the in-facing side.
 
theo said:
The chromo shafts have a slightly longer seal surface and the splines are shorter on the birf end. The c-clip grooves are the same and the overall length is about the same.

The inner c-clip was designed to keep the axle from riding outboard and jamming against the inside of the birf. Bobby's axles have shorter splines to accomplish this. So the inner c-clip isn't used.

Without the inner c-clip, either axle will slip into the Longfield far enough to position the seal surface correctly. Put the inner c-clip on either axle (chromo OR stock) and it will not go far enough into the Longfield. (But they will both go far enough into the stock birfield.) The Longfield star is too thick to allow it. Bobby realized this as soon as he compared them in his shop. That's why he ground down a pair of stars and sent them to me.

The Longfield stars are designed to capture the outer c-clip and to allow the axle to be inserted and removed without shattering the c-clip, unlike the Toyota stars. So the inner c-clip isn't used and the axle slides in far enough.

Clear as mud?
Click to expand...

Not trying to be pessemistic here, but if what you're saying is correct, it sounds like you HAVE to buy the Long inners or run w/o inner clips risking running the inners too far into the birfs. Considering that the star is never the part that fails, I can't see why they wouldn't all be ground down to work with either stock or Long inners.:confused:
 
Having installed a few of these in Minis and Land Cruisers, I still fail to see how there could be a parts problem....
 
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