ABS problem after Birfield + bearing repack (2 Viewers)

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

First, I'm new here and I'd like to compliment the members on maintianing such an excellent forum. I've been browsing the archives for a few days and I couldn't be more impressed with the quality of the knowledge and information in this forum.

Now for my problem: I purchased my first Land Cruiser (a '93 80-series with 136K mi) last week. It soon became evident, based on my reading in this forum, that a Birfield repack was in order and there was a problem with the wheel or knuckle bearings that needed to be addressed. After toying with the idea of DIY, I decided to pay my mechanic to do the job.

When he got things disassembled, he found that the lower knuckle bearing was badly damaged but that the other parts looked okay and didn't think anything other than the bearing needed replacement. However, now that everything is put back together, the ABS light is coming on and braking is very poor (This was never an issue in the week I owned the truck prior to the recent repairs).

Has anyone else experienced this problem after repacking the birfields? Any suggestions on what might be the cause?

Also, my mechanic doesn't have the equipment to read the error code and suggested I take it to the dealer to have the code read. This would entail leaving the truck all day. It appeared from other threads that there might be an easier way to get the code without special equipment. Is there way to do this?

The mechanic has suggested that perhaps everything was NOT in fact okay with the reinstalled parts and that the teeth on the axle that the ABS sensor reads may have been worn down to the point that the sensor doesn't read properly and will require replacement. This seems unusual since the ABS sensors were working prior to the rebuild.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

concretejungle · Nov 30, 2004

If the ABS worked before, then my guess is something wasn't reinstalled properly. Maybe the abs plug wasn't completely snapped on. Not sure, someone else will have more insight.

Where are you located in NC?

Welcome :flipoff2:

sjcruiser · Nov 30, 2004

The '93 LC has the ODBI so even you could read the code off the vehicle. It sounds like the ABS sensor was broken during the repacking process or was not re-installed correctly; and since you also experience poor braking performance, check the brake lines/fluid for kinks or swollen rubber.

Frank.

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

concretejungle said:
If the ABS worked before, then my guess is something wasn't reinstalled properly. Maybe the abs plug wasn't completely snapped on. Not sure, someone else will have more insight.

That would have been my first guess. Based on my knowledge gained reading the 'Birfield Odyssey' I was able to point out that the ABS sensors would have had to have been removed during the repack and that perhaps they were not properly reinstalled. The mechanic says he's gone over everything and that everything was reconnected properly. I can take a look myself when I get the vehicle back.

Where are you located in NC?

Raleigh-Durham area

concretejungle · Nov 30, 2004

carolina_cruiser said:
Raleigh-Durham area

Check the sensor for continuity.

There is another board member that is from raleigh, WolfpackTLC. You should try to come down and wheel Uwharrie with us this Saturday.

Scamper · Nov 30, 2004

Welcome to the forum CC.

A couple of items you mention give me cause for concern.

First, if your mechanic tore down the axle to replace the knuckle bearings, then there surely would have been parts that needed to be replaced, such as axle seals and gaskets. If--as your post seems to imply--he just threw it all back together using the old parts, you can expect significant leaks, and the inner axle seal will be bad resulting in mixing of your diff fluid and knuckle grease in a short time. Hopefully this is not the case and he did a proper job of replacing the necessary seals and gaskets.

Second, the ABS sensor does not actually touch the teeth on the axle. Rather, the sensor just senses the teeth going by (magnetic field) similar to the inductive pickup in a distributor. So unless something got buggered up on the reinstall, it's not likely that the teeth were worn down to the point of system failure. More likely is that he damaged the ABS sensor when trying to remove the axle--easy enough to do if you're not aware that the sensor must be removed before pulling the axle out. It's only made of plastic and is quite breakable. Alternatively, he may have broken some wires.

Not sure why your brakes wouldn't be good. Perhaps he got grease on the rotors or pads? He could have damaged the caliper in some way? If he actually removed the caliper instead of just hanging it, he probably failed to properly bleed the system after putting it back together.

Your truck is OBD-I. There is a simple means to pull the codes by shorting a couple of pins on the data port, then reading the flashes of the CEL light on the dash. I don't recall which pins, but I'm sure someone will chime in with that info (you'd think I'd have memorized it by now with all the times it's been posted).

These are the sort of reasons that most of us go the DIY way--if we mess up, we learn from it, but we end up knowing it was done right. If your mechanic is not LC experienced, chances are you will do no worse than he will.

NovaFZJ80 · Nov 30, 2004

carolina cruiser...similar thing happened to my 93...planned on DIY the brakes/rotors when the wheel lock on the front cracked as i tried to take them off...they were overtorqued by the guy at Costco...thus SOL, took it to my toy mechanic to replace the brakes/rotors.....after getting the LC back, got a metal to metal grinding sound on the PS when turning sharp or going straight intermittently....did a search on here for a few days and also talked w/Cdan about it...

conclusion was that he didn't reinstall something back correctly (dry spindle?, wheel bearnig not greased?), since i didn't have that sound prior to dropping it off...now, no sounds from it at all....so whatever was wrong was corrected by him...

so hopefully by the summer when i have assembled enough tools, will work on the LC myself...

mabrodis · Nov 30, 2004

The bad braking doesn't sound right. Even if the ABS sensor was completely gone the worst it would do is pulse the ABS when you neared a stop (mine does this every so often). But if the bad braking is actually a spongy pedal or hard pedal but no stopping, that is something else, not ABS IMO.

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

OK, I now have first hand experience with the braking. I picked the vehicle up after work at the shop and drove it home. Initially everything seemed fine - the ABS light cut on briefly as I was pulling out of the shop but then went out again. Normal braking seemed fine and the ABS light wasn't on so I was starting to think things were okay.

Then I encountered a situation where I had to brake fairly hard and the ABS light flashed back on and the vehicle pulled hard to the right under braking. It felt as if all braking on the left front had been released by the ABS and I just about went off the road.

I limped home on some back roads and had some unkind words for my mechanic's answering machine when I got home. The problem didn't recurr, despite a few lower-speed attempts to duplicate the problem on deserted back roads.

I'm planning to take a look at the ABS sensors tonight and see if there is any sign of obvious damage.

Also, I found a store on the other side of town that stocks a $30 OBD-I code reader for Toyota so hopefully I can pick that up tomorrow (in my other car) and see what it's showing.

EDIT - Some additonal info added:

I drove the truck a bit more on the empty road near my house and now have a bit better description of the problem. When the amber ABS light is off and hard braking is applied, the ABS light comes on and truck pulls hard to the right then recovers. In another case, the ABS light was on when hard braking was applied and the truck pulled hard right as the ABS light flashed off. When the amber ABS light is on and remains on during braking, the braking performance seems normal.

Scamper · Nov 30, 2004

carolina_cruiser said:
the ABS light cut on briefly as I was pulling out of the shop but then went out again.

This should not happen unless you really hit the brakes hard, or you hit them when you were on a slippery surface. ABS does not engage unless the system detects a spinning wheel.

Then I encountered a situation where I had to brake fairly hard and the ABS light flashed back on and the vehicle pulled hard to the right under braking. It felt as if all braking on the left front had been released by the ABS and I just about went off the road.

As you no doubt suspect, this would indicate your DS ABS is not working correctly.

Also, I found a store on the other side of town that stocks a $30 OBD-I code reader for Toyota so hopefully I can pick that up tomorrow (in my other car) and see what it's showing.

You might find that easier to use than shorting the data port, but either one will work reliably.

If it turns out to be your ABS sensor, I think (can't be sure) that the correct way to go is to replace both sides at once. In any case, Dan and/or others can set you right on this. But hope for a pinched wire...it will be less spendy.

Rookie2 · Nov 30, 2004

A couple of things:

Sounds like you've got a couple of cruiser guys in the area. Most would be more than happy to lend a hand if you supplied the #6.

I'd take a look in the archives. IIRC, the pre-OBDII is no more than shorting the ECU with a paperclip and reading the flashes. Long flash = 10, short flash = 1... so two long flashes followed by three short would be code 23. Correct me if I'm wrong OBD-I guys.

The ABS sensor would be pretty easy to do an initial inspection at least. Jack up, pull the wheel off, unbolt and the sensor and gently pull it out of the knuckle housing. Should be at able to tell at least if it's been damaged externally.

My 0.02.

Good Luck,
Rookie2

Beowulf · Nov 30, 2004

carolina_cruiser,

Removing, inspecting, and replacing the ABS sensor is a 1 banana job. It's easier with the wheel off but I think (emphasis on think) you can remove it with the wheel on.

Let us know what you find. I strongly suspect you will find the little metal magnet on the end will be damaged. If it is, then you may be able to epoxy it until you can get replacement sensors. They are sold in pairs.

-B-

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

Thanks for the additional advice. As suggested, I've got the front end up on jackstands and pulled the ABS sensor from both sides. The passenger side sensor looks fine, aside from some oil and metal flakes that I cleaned off of it. The driver's side (the side they repacked first and which had the failed bearing) appears to have some damage to the magnet. It looks almost like a file was taken to one half of the bottom. I'm guessing this could have occurred when the axle was removed , or perhaps the reinstalled parts are out of spec and damaged it during normal operation. Sorry about the image quality, my digital camera doesn't do closeups well:

On another note, there is a generous amount of 90W gear oil leaking from the passenger side steering knuckle past the newly installed seals (pretty sure this isn't normal) and the area underneath the ABS sensor is full of 90W oil (not sure if this is how it should be or not). The driver side inner tire shows signs of fresh gear oil as well. However, I found no sign of oil or grease on the brake rotors (shielded from the oil by a plate).

OK, off to try to read the ECU code now...

Scamper · Nov 30, 2004

For a just-completed birf job, that's not right--it looks like birf soup on the knuckle where you should have just a nice coating of grease. And as you know, that only happens when the diff fluid mixes with the knuckle grease. I hate to say it, but I suspect you're going to have to redo the axle service. :doh:

I would do so anyway, simply 'cuz now I don't know and/or trust what this guy did to your truck.

I think your mechanic may have buggered up the inner axle seals when he reinstalled the axles (assuming that he put the new seals into the axle in the first place). There's a little spring that sits in the axle seal which provides some support to the seal itself. If he jammed the axle into the diff, or let the axle sit on the seal, or man-handled it during the reinstallation, it could easily have damaged the seal. What could be worse is that the spring has been dislodged from the seal and is now floating around in your diff.

Oh...and for good measure, it looks like a new set of sensors from CDan are in order

You might consider getting the FSM from him at the same time. These trucks are not difficult to work on, and you'll save yourself a ton of aggravation.

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

OK, just checked the ECM. It shows code 1 - no malfunctions. I'm glad I didn't spend a day at the dealer to find that out.

Things were said during my follow up discussion with the mechanic which I dismissed at the time as mis-communication but now have me very worried. Please give some guidance if I'm making sense or if this is a misunderstanding on my part. On one occasion, I made an offhand remark that it looked like the grease and diff oil had mixed due to a bad inner oil seal and the mechanic said that there should be diff oil in the knuckles.

Later, I asked if he had in fact used the moly fortified grease and he said yes, there was both moly grease in the cv joint and the knuckle had been filled with diff oil. I couldn't picture what he was talking about being correct based on what I had read here. However, he *is* a professional mechanic so I figured he knows what he is doing. Perhaps that was my first mistake...

Rookie2 · Nov 30, 2004

Dang.. that's totally F'd up. I'm surprised the gear lube is coming through so quick and clean. Guess it hasn't had time to mix any.

That's a shame. Hope you can get your money back.

:beer:

Rookie2

PS, hope you were aware of the knuckle arm stud loosening problem and had him make sure they were secured. If not, now you know for when you/him get back in there.

carolina_cruiser · Nov 30, 2004

Update: I pulled, cleaned, and reinstalled the ABS sensors on both front wheels and - bob's your uncle - no more problems. At least, during a somewhat brief spin around the neighborhood the ABS light never came on at all and the braking performance was fine, as before the birf repack.

Not that I won't address this further as there are still clearly problems with the leaking knuckles. However, this gives me hope that the ABS sensors may be okay. Thanks for all the help so far. I have a feeling that there will be more to this saga as I will likely need to redo the axle myself.

I have to admit, I'm very disappointed with the work that was done. However, this mechanic has been keeping my MR2 running like a sewing machine for years (at well over 200K miles). It leaves me a little perplexed, perhaps the LC is just unfamiliar territory.

Scamper · Nov 30, 2004

carolina_cruiser said:
Later, I asked if he had in fact used the moly fortified grease and he said yes, there was both moly grease in the cv joint and the knuckle had been filled with diff oil. I couldn't picture what he was talking about being correct based on what I had read here. However, he *is* a professional mechanic so I figured he knows what he is doing. Perhaps that was my first mistake...

He put grease in/on the birfield joint, and then poured diff fluid in the knuckle!!?? :doh:

What an asshat. I guess the good news is that the inner seals may be okay, but you'll still have to pull the axle to dump the fluid and grease the inside of the knuckle. Crap, I'd do it all over again anyway. God only knows what else he screwed up. Where did you find this mechanic anyway...yellowpages under dumbass?

Don't mean to be harsh, but damn thats the worst case of stupid-mechanic I've heard of in a long while. Sorry fella.

Beowulf · Nov 30, 2004

Carolina_Cruiser,

>> The passenger side sensor looks fine, aside from some oil <<
>> and metal flakes that I cleaned off of it. <<

This is the first clue to a problem. As you have discovered, the mechanic was not familiar with your Cruiser's solid front axle and how it is serviced. The FZJ80 knuckles are packed with moly grease, including the birfield joint. The wheel bearings get high speed wheel bearing grease. In order to remove the birfield and pack it with grease the ABS sensor *must* be removed. It is unlikely he removed the PS sensor since it had metal flakes that had to be cleaned off. Maybe he just didn't clean it but that seems unlikely. The second clue is that it has gear oil on it.

It seems clear the mechanic filled the knuckle with gear oil; he told you he did, you can see it leaking on the outside, and there was oil on the ABS sensor. Your knuckles have to be reopened and filled with moly grease (approx 3/4 full) He will also need to repack the birfield joint as it very likely has been exposed to gear oil.

Since he was under the (mistaken) impression that there would be gear oil in the knuckle he may *not* have properly installed the inner axle tube oil seal. Maybe he did but that would be curious since he was under the impression that there should be gear oil on both sides of that seal. Why put in the seal?

The good news is that most of the parts should be OK (maybe not the axle tube seal) so the only expense should be the labor to go back in and pack with moly grease. You need to have this fixed fairly quickly as that leak is going to get worse and sling muck everywhere.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

-B-

Riley · Nov 30, 2004

Beowulf said:
Since he was under the (mistaken) impression that there would be gear oil in the knuckle he may *not* have properly installed the inner axle tube oil seal. Maybe he did but that would be curious since he was under the impression that there should be gear oil on both sides of that seal. Why put in the seal?
-B-

My thoughts exactly but I'd add that you should check the parts on the invoice to see if new seals were used. He might not realize a seal is even present.

good luck, must be frustrating.

ABS problem after Birfield + bearing repack (2 Viewers)

More options

carolina_cruiser

concretejungle

sjcruiser

carolina_cruiser

concretejungle

Scamper

NovaFZJ80

mabrodis

carolina_cruiser

Scamper

Rookie2

Beowulf

carolina_cruiser

Scamper

carolina_cruiser

Rookie2

carolina_cruiser

Scamper

Beowulf

Riley

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread

Share this page

Connect with us

ABS problem after Birfield + bearing repack (2 Viewers)

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Share this page