While we're at it - Water Softener, De-ionization, Salt-Free ???

[haystax]

I am getting to the plumbing stage in my new house and plan on installing a water filter and softener setup to deal with the hard water we have in our area. It is my own private well and I am waiting to hear back from the lab about the actual hardness and TDS levels but I know from living here forever that the water is HARD!

I don't want my new appliances or fixtures to get scaled up and ruined so a softener setup is a must. I guess I am not worried that I am ingesting that sh!t as much as I am about my recent kitchen and bath purchases Wife won't touch our well water and I'm tired of buying bottled. So...

Which systems work and which don't - I would really rather go the de-ionization route but that looks like major $$$$. The salt-free look like a gimmick rather than a cure to the real chemical problem, but I would appreciate any real world feedback from users of the catalytic systems.

And finally, do the salt/brine tank style units take much to set up? Is a brand name unit really worth 3-4 times the price of a Kenmore or Maytag? Who has one that is really good? Whose really sucks? I am leaning towards a Fleck with a manual meter and valve body. Any experience with these units?

I am also doing all the rough-in plumbing to accomodate the softener. Kitchen sink and refer water tap will be un-softened, possible treated at the point with an undercabinet R.O. system in the future. All other fixtures in the house + indirect water heater will be treated. One outside tap for washing cars will be treated as well.

So that's the plan - any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[Awl_TEQ]

Wow - lots of info/ questions. I'll throw in 2cents.

I'll start with me. I used to work for US Filter here in Calgary building commercial softener, de-ionizer and RO systems for hotels, hospitals, industry etc. We also did household units and sold them through a distributer network all over western Canada. That was about eight years ago but the basics don't really change just the efficiencies get better.

De-ionizing units that we built were all commercial sized for boilers, laboratories and medical for kidney dialysis. We never had any household sized units. The systems we built used resin beads that like to latch on to the dissolved solids in the water thereby filtering them out of the water. They would bring the water as close to pure as can be done. Water does not conduct electricity when pure and it's purity is measured in Mega ohms of resistance. We had systems for kidney dialysis that had 20 megohms resistance. That is H2O and nothing else. Are you familiar with the concept of diffusion? That water is so pure that it will actually pull minerals out of your body (hence kidney dialysis) because the minerals want to move to an area with less concentration in the water. Now - you mention household de-ionization. I know nothing about those systems or what mechanism they use to filter water so I'll move on.

Salt-free. Never heard of it. Could be a gimmick. or maybe I just never heard of it. If it is a catalytic system it could have merit. Cost and efficiency would determine if it's an option.

Softeners, these I know about. Hard to hook up? NO. Water in - Water out - line run to floor drain - plugin controller - done. You have to decide where you want soft and hard water in the house. Are you gonna soften the hot water? Standard hot water heater tanks have an Anion rod in them that is designed to remove hardness, but if you put soft water through the tank without removing the anion rod you can get a foul taste. I can't remember why - eight years is a while. Once plumbed in you just add salt and set up the controller as per the manual. Softeners work by running the water through a beaded resin that likes to latch on to dissolved solids in the water through ionic attraction. The resin will only hold so much though and when full needs to shed the solids. They do this by reversing the flow to agitate the resin bed and running a brine solution through. The resin likes the salt ions better than the dissolved solids because of the concentration in the brine - it's a chemical thing - so the solids are washed down the drain.

Brand name? Maytag and Kenmore are brand names as well. We used Autotrol controllers and valves. Fleck was a competitor at the time. I think there have been a few mergers since then. Kinetico are good systems from what I hear. They all have warranties but pick one that has support - not now but 15 years from now when you need it. Basically you need to compare your budget to the efficiency of the units. How much water do they waste in regeneration with brine? How often will they regen? Choose a unit big enough to handle your water usage and TDS. These are all questions a good supplier should ask and answer. When you say you're leaning toward a Fleck with a manual meter and valve body I think you mean to say a more simple system rather than a fancy computer controller. I would agree. As long as it is a metered system it won't regenerate when not needed i.e. vacation. Fleck will have the support as well because they have been around a long time. The Maytag/Kenmore units change constantly as they try to make the unit more visually appealing and cheaper. So the parts needed for repair change so often the unit becomes throw away because nobody will stock parts.

Plumbing. Most units have a built in bypass so they can be removed for service. I'm not sure about your reason for not treating the kitchen sink water - cooking maybe? Also, the refer. Our frig has a carbon filter in it and I feed it soft water. The softener will remove some chlorine making the refer carbon filter last longer. Also a RO drinking water system will last longer if fed soft water. A soft water tap for the car washing is a good idea - no water spots, chamois not required. Just don't water the grass or you'll kill it. Just make sure you get treated water to the laundry and dishwasher - the wife will thank you.

Sorry for the novel and anyone please correct any false statements - don't want to miss-lead.

 

[haystax]

Thanks for your reply - lots of info

I believe the catalytic systems "coat" the Calcium and Magnesium molecules so they don't produce scale, they are still present in their original chemical form, just not a likely to build up deposits. Haven't really studied them because of the cost factor of the units. Pelican Water Technologies - Pelican NaturSoft Salt Free Water Softener/Conditioners

About "brands" - I was referring to the Kinetico, Culligan, or Hague systems which cost more than some vehicles and come with all kinds of stuff I don't need and are a high pressure sales, proprietary system serviced only be the dealer. Plus, most of these dealers are 4 hours away so I can't really rely on them for service. On the other end of the price spectrum are the "generic" brands sold at Lowes, HD or Sears. I agree with you that these units are probably disposable after a few years of service.

Somewhere in between these extremes there must be the real value and quality brands and I will check into the Autotrol based on your recommendation. What I really want is a simple, mechanical system based on flow meters rather than a computer board or electronic type timer. I don't think it is generally a good idea to mix salt water and electricity.

The plumbing plan is not set in stone at this point. I am running Uponor PEX on a modified home-run type system and have the ability to plumb each fixture to either hard or soft water. All hot water will be softened, only cold will have the option actually.

My reasoning for the kitchen sink cold tap being filtered, hard well water is for watering plants and cooking/drinking I like the taste of the hard water. I may run a softened cold line to the refer for the drinking water so I have that option.

DHW tank is indirect off the radiant mod/con boiler and will be softened before going in the tank - I will check up on the anion rod and talk with the tank and boiler supplier about this - glad you mentioned that!

Thanks for your time!

 

[likewelders]

I have a Kinetico, got it after the local water people rebuilt it. Been running about 10 years, no issues. backwashes on demand as well, very good on salt. I see a lot of old Culligan units on the side of the road here, but they do look pretty old. My unit is in the garage too.

On the kitchen and bathrooms, we have RO system as well. Not sure what brand. My water guy is a personal friends, he pick all my stuff out for me,