Timing adjustment

[01dakar650]

Does anyone here have experience correctly adjusting the timing on a 3B with a rotary injection pump? I have the engine manual but this is my first diesel and the instructions are confusing to me.

 

[EMTPrescue]

Does anyone here have experience correctly adjusting the timing on a 3B with a rotary injection pump? I have the engine manual but this is my first diesel and the instructions are confusing to me.

The timing adjustment if it is loike my 2Lte is very straight forward. I feel compelled to ask you though why are your adjusting the timeing? Very little adjust tolerance is built into the ECU and going too far will generate a bucket load of hard codes in the ECU with your engine light eluminated. Again if it is like my 2LTE pump, all of the active the timing is controlled by the ECU that has an algorithm that is wriiten into the softwware. The injector timeing is controlled by the ECU giving commands to the pump based on a number of parameters like engine rpm, throttle position and engine temperature. I just replaced the fuel pump on my engine as it was leaking and the ONLY shop in Canada that can fully REMANUFACTURE these pumps is in Richmond BC. The owner who did the work is extrmely knowlegable with over 40 years in the business 25 of which is Toyota specific. The STATIC timing adjustment is accomplished by loosening the two "nuts" at the front of the pump and one retaining "bolt" located at the back. There is about .5-.75 of an inch adjustment capablility built into the casing of the pump. The bolts onto which the two front nuts attach and the rear bolt all sit in slots that are, again, about .5 - .75" in length. Those slots allow you to adjust the Static timing. In other words the carved in stone BASE timing that the ECU then can and does adjust from. Once those nuts and the bolt are loosened, then the pump can be rotated either towards the engine which advances the timing or away from the engine which decreases the timing. another way to think of this is satnd at the fron of your vehicle looking at the engine. If you then rotaste the pump counterclockwise (towards the engine) you are then advancing the timing. Rotating the pump clockwise (away from the block) retards the timing. Before doing any of this, look on the front caseing of the pump and the engine block. There is a thin line scribed in both pump caseing and the block. Those two lines should be very close together if not perfectly in line with each other. Those lines are your visual reference as to where the static timing is presently set. The reason the manufacture gives you a timing adjustment capability is to allow for the compensation of wear on the parts that keep everything timed. The big item that wears over time of course is the rubber timeing belt. As it stretches, that static timing changes and this small adjustment affords you the ability to adjust for those minor changes. When the engine is new and belt is not stretched, the lines I referenced should be perfectly in line with each other. As engine hours move closure to the time recommended for the belt to be replaced, the lost "static advance" due to belt stretch, can be compensated for by rotating the pump. The person who remaned my pump told me to install my pump with 1-2 MM of static advance which equates to about the thickness of one of the aforementioned lines on the housing/block. This additional static advance is reported to help with cold starts and reduce the puff of thick white smoke on initial start up. Because I was that far into the engine, I replaced the water pump, timing belt, tensioner and idler. You had mentioned that this is your first diesel engine. Unlike gas bombs that have distributor timing marks on the harmonic balancer that you adjust by using a timing light, diesel engines that are not common rail systems derive most if not all their timing adjustment through the manipulation of the injector pulse. That pulse is generated from and the timing of which is all done by the pump and the ECU that controls the pump. You have very little control over that process except as highlighted you can adjust the base line or static timing from which the ECU will then adjust. I am not center but I don't beleave the system has any retard capabilty. I beleave it can only advance the timing from again, the base static timing that you have dialed in. I hope this helps. Again I would ask, why do you feel you need to adjust the timing? This forum is full of guys chasing timeing issues by trying to adjust the pump. Please keep in mind that if the pump timing is off-kilter because of a stretched belt then your cam/crank mechanical timing is also out of wack. The pump and the cam are all rotated by the same belt. If your belt is worn to the point where the minimul adjustment capability built into the pump housing can not address the challenge, then you need to look at the belt to make certain that it has not skipped a tooth or even worse more than one tooth. Worn belts are the number killers of engines that use belts. The kissing of internal engine parts is a high likelihood and that can be casatrophic if it happens.

 

[01dakar650]

The timing adjustment if it is loike my 2Lte is very straight forward. I feel compelled to ask you though why are your adjusting the timeing? Very little adjust tolerance is built into the ECU and going too far will generate a bucket load of hard codes in the ECU with your engine light eluminated. Again if it is like my 2LTE pump, all of the active the timing is controlled by the ECU that has an algorithm that is wriiten into the softwware. The injector timeing is controlled by the ECU giving commands to the pump based on a number of parameters like engine rpm, throttle position and engine temperature. I just replaced the fuel pump on my engine as it was leaking and the ONLY shop in Canada that can fully REMANUFACTURE these pumps is in Richmond BC. The owner who did the work is extrmely knowlegable with over 40 years in the business 25 of which is Toyota specific. The STATIC timing adjustment is accomplished by loosening the two "nuts" at the front of the pump and one retaining "bolt" located at the back. There is about .5-.75 of an inch adjustment capablility built into the casing of the pump. The bolts onto which the two front nuts attach and the rear bolt all sit in slots that are, again, about .5 - .75" in length. Those slots allow you to adjust the Static timing. In other words the carved in stone BASE timing that the ECU then can and does adjust from. Once those nuts and the bolt are loosened, then the pump can be rotated either towards the engine which advances the timing or away from the engine which decreases the timing. another way to think of this is satnd at the fron of your vehicle looking at the engine. If you then rotaste the pump counterclockwise (towards the engine) you are then advancing the timing. Rotating the pump clockwise (away from the block) retards the timing. Before doing any of this, look on the front caseing of the pump and the engine block. There is a thin line scribed in both pump caseing and the block. Those two lines should be very close together if not perfectly in line with each other. Those lines are your visual reference as to where the static timing is presently set. The reason the manufacture gives you a timing adjustment capability is to allow for the compensation of wear on the parts that keep everything timed. The big item that wears over time of course is the rubber timeing belt. As it stretches, that static timing changes and this small adjustment affords you the ability to adjust for those minor changes. When the engine is new and belt is not stretched, the lines I referenced should be perfectly in line with each other. As engine hours move closure to the time recommended for the belt to be replaced, the lost "static advance" due to belt stretch, can be compensated for by rotating the pump. The person who remaned my pump told me to install my pump with 1-2 MM of static advance which equates to about the thickness of one of the aforementioned lines on the housing/block. This additional static advance is reported to help with cold starts and reduce the puff of thick white smoke on initial start up. Because I was that far into the engine, I replaced the water pump, timing belt, tensioner and idler. You had mentioned that this is your first diesel engine. Unlike gas bombs that have distributor timing marks on the harmonic balancer that you adjust by using a timing light, diesel engines that are not common rail systems derive most if not all their timing adjustment through the manipulation of the injector pulse. That pulse is generated from and the timing of which is all done by the pump and the ECU that controls the pump. You have very little control over that process except as highlighted you can adjust the base line or static timing from which the ECU will then adjust. I am not center but I don't beleave the system has any retard capabilty. I beleave it can only advance the timing from again, the base static timing that you have dialed in. I hope this helps. Again I would ask, why do you feel you need to adjust the timing? This forum is full of guys chasing timeing issues by trying to adjust the pump. Please keep in mind that if the pump timing is off-kilter because of a stretched belt then your cam/crank mechanical timing is also out of wack. The pump and the cam are all rotated by the same belt. If your belt is worn to the point where the minimul adjustment capability built into the pump housing can not address the challenge, then you need to look at the belt to make certain that it has not skipped a tooth or even worse more than one tooth. Worn belts are the number killers of engines that use belts. The kissing of internal engine parts is a high likelihood and that can be casatrophic if it happens.

Yeah I’m not used to diesel timing. So, the worn belt makes sense. After I installed a turbocharger, I took it to a diesel shop in Denver to adjust the timing. That was the only place that said they could do it. However, there is still an audible chattering and some vibrations can be felt in the pedal while driving. The shop I took it to advanced the pump about 1/8 of an inch. I’m just guessing that the noise and vibrations are due to the timing being off. It didn’t have any of those symptoms before I turbo’d the truck.

 

[EMTPrescue]

The timing adjustment if it is loike my 2Lte is very straight forward. I feel compelled to ask you though why are your adjusting the timeing? Very little adjust tolerance is built into the ECU and going too far will generate a bucket load of hard codes in the ECU with your engine light eluminated. Again if it is like my 2LTE pump, all of the active the timing is controlled by the ECU that has an algorithm that is wriiten into the softwware. The injector timeing is controlled by the ECU giving commands to the pump based on a number of parameters like engine rpm, throttle position and engine temperature. I just replaced the fuel pump on my engine as it was leaking and the ONLY shop in Canada that can fully REMANUFACTURE these pumps is in Richmond BC. The owner who did the work is extrmely knowlegable with over 40 years in the business 25 of which is Toyota specific. The STATIC timing adjustment is accomplished by loosening the two "nuts" at the front of the pump and one retaining "bolt" located at the back. There is about .5-.75 of an inch adjustment capablility built into the casing of the pump. The bolts onto which the two front nuts attach and the rear bolt all sit in slots that are, again, about .5 - .75" in length. Those slots allow you to adjust the Static timing. In other words the carved in stone BASE timing that the ECU then can and does adjust from. Once those nuts and the bolt are loosened, then the pump can be rotated either towards the engine which advances the timing or away from the engine which decreases the timing. another way to think of this is satnd at the fron of your vehicle looking at the engine. If you then rotaste the pump counterclockwise (towards the engine) you are then advancing the timing. Rotating the pump clockwise (away from the block) retards the timing. Before doing any of this, look on the front caseing of the pump and the engine block. There is a thin line scribed in both pump caseing and the block. Those two lines should be very close together if not perfectly in line with each other. Those lines are your visual reference as to where the static timing is presently set. The reason the manufacture gives you a timing adjustment capability is to allow for the compensation of wear on the parts that keep everything timed. The big item that wears over time of course is the rubber timeing belt. As it stretches, that static timing changes and this small adjustment affords you the ability to adjust for those minor changes. When the engine is new and belt is not stretched, the lines I referenced should be perfectly in line with each other. As engine hours move closure to the time recommended for the belt to be replaced, the lost "static advance" due to belt stretch, can be compensated for by rotating the pump. The person who remaned my pump told me to install my pump with 1-2 MM of static advance which equates to about the thickness of one of the aforementioned lines on the housing/block. This additional static advance is reported to help with cold starts and reduce the puff of thick white smoke on initial start up. Because I was that far into the engine, I replaced the water pump, timing belt, tensioner and idler. You had mentioned that this is your first diesel engine. Unlike gas bombs that have distributor timing marks on the harmonic balancer that you adjust by using a timing light, diesel engines that are not common rail systems derive most if not all their timing adjustment through the manipulation of the injector pulse. That pulse is generated from and the timing of which is all done by the pump and the ECU that controls the pump. You have very little control over that process except as highlighted you can adjust the base line or static timing from which the ECU will then adjust. I am not center but I don't beleave the system has any retard capabilty. I beleave it can only advance the timing from again, the base static timing that you have dialed in. I hope this helps. Again I would ask, why do you feel you need to adjust the timing? This forum is full of guys chasing timeing issues by trying to adjust the pump. Please keep in mind that if the pump timing is off-kilter because of a stretched belt then your cam/crank mechanical timing is also out of wack. The pump and the cam are all rotated by the same belt. If your belt is worn to the point where the minimul adjustment capability built into the pump housing can not address the challenge, then you need to look at the belt to make certain that it has not skipped a tooth or even worse more than one tooth. Worn belts are the number killers of engines that use belts. The kissing of internal engine parts is a high likelihood and that can be casatrophic if it happens.

I would be careful with putting a Turbo on an engine that was designed as naturally asperated. The big challenge is the amount of boost that the turbo is introducing and what can the engine tolerate. In the theoretical world, boost can be the holly grail of increased performance. However, compressing air and it jamming down the throat of an engine never designed for it can be problematic especially with a diesel engine. Firstly, turbo chargers introduce exhaust back pressure to an engine. That restricts the natural flow of the exhaust gases out of the engine which increases the temp of the exhaust gas and in turn the internal components of the engine. Second air that is compressed gets hotter so you are jamming albeit higher volumes of air into the intake manifold but the air from a volumetric stand point is actually less dense because of the heat. Decreased density means less O2 being introduced into the cylinder compared to the same volume of air that is cooler. Less O2 equates to reduced fuel burn that equates to less power being developed again compared to the same volume of air that is cooler. This is why intercoolers are used on most modern turbo charged engines. The intercooler takes the compressed air coming out of the turbo and runs it through a cooler similar to your radiator. The air coming out of the intercooler now having been cooled, is much more effective at increasing the amount of combustion in the cylinder. Of course the other undesirable is that you are introducing heated air into the engine which only serves to add to the engine's operating temperatures and place additional demands upon your cooling system. The third challenge is the temperature of those flow restricted exhaust gases. Because they stick around between the turbo and the exhaust side of the engine longer then what was designed, those gases begin to increase in temperature and if they get high enough they can start to melt your pistons. Additionally, increased power derived through the use of turbo charging also increases the operating temperature of the entire engine. That increased heat also has to be dealt with by your cooling system. Fourthly, is the increased combustion chamber pressures that are developed because of that increased volume of air being jammed down the throat of the engine. Blown head gaskets, stretched head bolts and cracked heads are all possible failures that can occur. Perhaps the biggest challenge in a diesel engine of this vintage is that the amount of fuel that is being delivered to the cylinder via the injector pump has all be mapped out and planned for by the design engineers. You can't just simply change the jet size like your can in a carbureted gas bomb. There is no carburetor. There are no jets. When you turbo charge an older style diesel engine that was never designed to be boosted, you can and will run into fuel starvation challenges because the fuel pump does not know nor has it any method by which to fine out that the engine needs more fuel while at the higher levels of boost. Anyone who says they can fix that problem in my mind is just guessing. They can potentially adjust the pump to inject more fuel but it is the when and the why that they can not play with. That is all built into the mechanical/electronic processes that the pump/ecu were designed with. Simply increasing fuel output is not a complete solution to the challenge. Putting a boost gauge and an exhaust gas temperature gauge on your engine for you is a must. With the turbo charging of your engine, it is imperative that you have a method of knowing what is going on when it is going on as compared to something breaking and you then finding out through a hefty repair bill. Being at altitude such as where you are does have it's draw backs . I am very familiar with them as well because Calgary is at 3997 ft. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the conversation. Good luck. Hopes this helps.

 

[01dakar650]

I’m familiar with the physics of the turbo charger and how it works. Very thorough description though. I have a pyro and a boost gauge installed, as well as an intercooler. None of that changes the noise in the engine that should be there though, and that’s why I was curious about the timing adjustment.

 

[EMTPrescue]

I’m familiar with the physics of the turbo charger and how it works. Very thorough description though. I have a pyro and a boost gauge installed, as well as an intercooler. None of that changes the noise in the engine that should be there though, and that’s why I was curious about the timing adjustment.

With you having done all that work a few questions. How much boost are you running? What if anything have you done to address the inharent potential fuel starvation? What is your EGT operational range that you experiencing and taking me back to my first question why did you have the timing advanced and what were you hoping it would do? As to the noise that you are now hearing I can't see how advancing the timing would create noise or vibration. Perhaps someone else can wiegh in on that. As changing the advance back to where it was is not that difficult you may want to consider doing that to see if your noise goes away at the same time.

 

[01dakar650]

With you having done all that work a few questions. How much boost are you running? What if anything have you done to address the inharent potential fuel starvation? What is your EGT operational range that you experiencing and taking me back to my first question why did you have the timing advanced and what were you hoping it would do? As to the noise that you are now hearing I can't see how advancing the timing would create noise or vibration. Perhaps someone else can wiegh in on that. As changing the advance back to where it was is not that difficult you may want to consider doing that to see if your noise goes away at the same time.

I haven’t done anything to address any potential fuel starvation. 10 PSI max boost. Normal EGTs are anywhere between 350 up to 950 depending on if it’s level ground or up hill. But it normally stays around 450/500. I didn’t tell the shop I took it to to do anything but make sure the timing was correct. They felt they needed to advanced it on their own. If they felt they needed to retard it I’m sure they would have done that instead. I was trusting them that they would know what they were doing, as they said they did. I will retard the pump and see what that gets me .

 

[EMTPrescue]

I haven’t done anything to address any potential fuel starvation. 10 PSI max boost. Normal EGTs are anywhere between 350 up to 950 depending on if it’s level ground or up hill. But it normally stays around 450/500. I didn’t tell the shop I took it to to do anything but make sure the timing was correct. They felt they needed to advanced it on their own. If they felt they needed to retard it I’m sure they would have done that instead. I was trusting them that they would know what they were doing, as they said they did. I will retard the pump and see what that gets me .

Your numbers all seem in line. Anything over 1000F for any extended period could be problematic. Try putting it back to 0 amount of static advance and see if your noise goes away. Failing that you may have to look at a timing belt but first look at all the other accessory pulleys like the AC and altinator. Perhaps you have an idler that is loose or the baring has gone. Good luck!

 

[01dakar650]

Your numbers all seem in line. Anything over 1000F for any extended period could be problematic. Try putting it back to 0 amount of static advance and see if your noise goes away. Failing that you may have to look at a timing belt but first look at all the other accessory pulleys like the AC and altinator. Perhaps you have an idler that is loose or the baring has gone. Good luck!

Ok thanks for the advice