possible right birf issues?

[concretejungle]

Here's the skinny:

Started hearing a "ca-clunk. . . ca-clunk. . . . ca-clunk" as i was idoling at approx. 5-15 mph in a parkinglot, or up against a curb with the windows down and the radio off. Testing revealed that no matter which way i turned (left or right) it would make this noise at all times except when the drivetrain is under load from acceleration. During coasting or braking the "ca-clunk. . ca-clunk ect.." was present. The best i can describe the sound is a matalic clunk and not a clicking like a worn birf. Almost like a driveshaft.

Put the truck up on 4 jackstands today and put it in gear so i could lie under her and listen. Best i could tell is it was coming from inside the RF knuckle. I pretty much ruled out it coming from that side of the diff. and it definately wasn't the dirveshaft. So i dug in.

As i popped the outter snap ring off, i noticed a lot of inward and outward play. More than i think was standard. As i pulled the axle hub out, the inner face of the outter bearing had some rusty grease on it. The knuckle spindle also had a little bit of this rusty grease on the inside of it. As i dug in deeper and pulled the birf out, i noticed a slight amount of diff oil in the cavity, but not too bad. I think the seal was holding up pretty well and there was no rusty grease in the cavity.

Close examination of the birf showed no scaring on the outside which would lead me to think it was not flopping around and hitting the cavity. There was about 1/4" - 1/2" play with the axle that inters the bell, pulling in and out. But the articulation movement felt good.

Examination of the knuckle spindle showed a little bit of a groove where the inner bearing rides on it. Also, and i'm not sure if this is supposed to be like it, but the inner bearing was loose to the hand. I just figured it would tighten itself as i put the hub back on and set the preload. Anyways, i extracted the bearing and repacked it, put it back in, repacked the birf and buttoned everything back up to spec.

Took it for a drive and it's still doing the same thing. What the heck is it? Is it in the diff? Is the inward and outward play of the inner axle causing some havock in the birf joint? I don't know.

 

[Bear80]

Only a theory, but could it be the brass bushing in the spindle maybe.

 

[Grench]

Stupid ideas... could it be....

OK, I've seen both of these cause similar noises, but never on a Land Cruiser... They're obscure and unlikely, but a helluva lot easier to check than the alternatives.

Object in tire. The one I saw was after some idiot left in a screwdriver on an '85 New Yorker. Bounce the tire on the ground. If it goes -boing- and hits you in the face and then rolls down the road without going clunk clunk clunk, then it isn't it. This one goes away at about 5 mph as the object just stays on the outside of the centrifuge.

Warped disc brake and loose caliper. You probably would have detected this when you were servicing the birfield. I saw this on an Escort. In this case it was the side opposite the 'noisy' side that was warped & loose. The clunk was the play in the drive system being taken up and let go every time the rotor went through the bad caliper. A very faint thunk shick thunk shick thunk sound familiar? If this is it though, you also may have too much play in the drivetrain. Check the U joints.

 

[concretejungle]

A very faint thunk shick thunk shick thunk sound familiar? If this is it though, you also may have too much play in the drivetrain. Check the U joints.

Hahaha, it's kinda funny trying to describe a sound. But yes, that is very similar to the sound i think i'm trying to describe.

 

[88toy]

Recently had this on the -80. Lost drive power accellerating from a light. Locked the center diff, got home with a lot of banging and clunking, figured a birf let go. Similarly, on teardown, all looked normal until checking the inner splines on the RH axle. Gone. A new one for me. Replaced the axle (thanks again, Marlin) and the side gear (stick it, Toyota) and all is well.

 

[concretejungle]

Recently had this on the -80. Lost drive power accellerating from a light. Locked the center diff, got home with a lot of banging and clunking, figured a birf let go. Similarly, on teardown, all looked normal until checking the inner splines on the RH axle. Gone. A new one for me. Replaced the axle (thanks again, Marlin) and the side gear (stick it, Toyota) and all is well.

Splines looked good, but now i'm worried i didn't examine those well enough, but i'm worried about the spindle a little. Since the truck is my DD i was pushed for time to get it back together so i could make an appointment. Perhaps the spindle is worn and the bearings are not seating on the spindle fully, leaving a little slop? Just guessing.

 

[Beowulf]

CJ,
Based on your description, my guess would be drive plate or brass bushing. The inner wheel bearing gets "tightened" when you set the preload on the outer bearing.

Did the inner and outer bearing races look OK?

Were the knuckle bearings replaced at the last front axle service? How many miles since?

-B-

 

[concretejungle]

CJ,
Based on your description, my guess would be drive plate or brass bushing. The inner wheel bearing gets "tightened" when you set the preload on the outer bearing.

Did the inner and outer bearing races look OK?

Were the knuckle bearings replaced at the last front axle service? How many miles since?

-B-

Yes, B, i was thinking the same thing when i was wiggling the bearings. Just figured they would tighten up.

The races did appear as if they had some movement as there was slight scaring and the outter race had a little bit of rusty grease on it. Also, the brass bushing did feel like it had some burs and also had hardened/pastey grease in it's grooves.

Yes, the knuckle bearings and races were replaced along with new rotors at the last service which was at 120,000. I'm sitting dead on 180,000 right now.

 

[concretejungle]

any other ideas?

 

[Beowulf]

If it's not the birfield joint, the knuckle bearings/races, the wheel bearings/races, drive plate, or the spindle bushing, then your noise is probably not coming from something in the knuckle.

Maybe tie rods or bolts on the lower knuckle steering arm or the brake caliper?

-B-

 

[NeverFinis]

does it happen when you are braking?


edited: Never mind...

 

[Beowulf]

does it happen when you are braking?

During coasting or braking the "ca-clunk. . ca-clunk ect.." was present.

-B-

 

[concretejungle]

I do have a spare birf i got from CVunlimited i was going to use as a trail spare. I am thinking i'll get bearings and races along with a spindle from dan and just replace everything in the right side.

Should there be any movement in-out (basically pulling apart and pressing back in) on the axle into the bell of the birf? I do have about 1/4 inch maybe a tad more.

Also, anyone think it's something in the diff?

 

[Beowulf]

Should there be any movement in-out (basically pulling apart and pressing back in) on the axle into the bell of the birf? I do have about 1/4 inch maybe a tad more.

Yes. .25" sounds about right.
-B-

 

[IdahoDoug]

Concrete said:

"Close examination of the birf showed no scaring on the outside which would lead me to think it was not flopping around and hitting the cavity. There was about 1/4" - 1/2" play with the axle that inters the bell, pulling in and out. But the articulation movement felt good."

Good thing your birfield wasn't scared. Studies show that 9 out of 10 scared birfields are about to let go simply from fright.

OK, if what you're saying here is literally you're holding the inner axle/birf/outer axle in your hand and you're able to push/pull the inner axle in and out of the birf to the tune of over 1/4 inch, then something's amiss. That's WAY too much movement inside the birf and tells me that something's broken in there - maybe the circlip but I am too lazy to go and get my manual. You should have only a fraction of that amount of slack - say a 16th which represents the addition of the circlip movement in the groove and the balls' movement in the inner cage.

The click click is likely the cage being slack and moving the axle in and out of itself as the balls go round. When you apply drive torque the balls pin the cage in one position and for some reason it's held in one spot. Try reversing and see if the noise changes dramatically. My guess is it will and it will be the same noise but louder. This would be good info to know either way. Use caution as I don't like this and don't want you to tear something up if it fails. If I'm right about it, the long inner axle is getting hammered in and out against your diff gears like a slide hammer when you reverse. I like the trail spare swap idea a lot.

Beo - I'm disagreeing with you here because he's saying ALL that slack is in the birf and I'm kinda thinking that in your mind you're thinking that when the 80s circlip is engaged into the drive plate on final assembly there is a bit of slack at the tip which is fine in the 1/4 inch range. That total amount of movement comes from being able to move the entire axle (including the birf) in and out. But he's saying he can piston the inner axle in and out of his birf ALONE by that amount. Just want to clarify that that much movment solely in the birf is IMHO way too much.

DougM

 

[concretejungle]

But he's saying he can piston the inner axle in and out of his birf ALONE by that amount. Just want to clarify that that much movment solely in the birf is IMHO way too much.

DougM

that's a good way to put it. I tried to simply pull the axle out of the birf but i couldn't. Perhaps the ring is broken inside but not completely which is giving slack but not letting it fall completely out.

I'll go out to the parking lot today and try backing-up listing to see if the noise gets worse/louder.

Damn i don't want to dig into that thing again. . .

 

[Beowulf]

Just want to clarify that that much movment solely in the birf is IMHO way too much.

Agreed. I interpreted that 1/4" play to mean movement of the birf, stub axle, and inner axle... usually seen when putting the outer circlip on the stub axle.

-B-

 

[concretejungle]

I just went out in the parking lot during lunch and tried to see what happened in reverse. I had a tough time getting it to make a noise in reverse, but i did. It was not the same sound as is heard going forward; much more pronounced and distinct metalic ping.

 

[concretejungle]

Now i can hardly even get it to do it in reverse.

 

[IdahoDoug]

You're going to have to pull that birf - I'm 98% that it's damaged badly. Fortunately you've got a spare if you get in there and it's more than the birf's inner clip having failed. Actually, that's wishful thinking - I'm not aware of anyone breaking that clip in use. But maybe. Hmmm.

Anyhow, get that thing out before it grenades and takes out the ABS sensor, which we all know is big $$$ since it is only available from Toyota with the entire harness. Could damage other stuff as well. Congrats on noting it before it went kabloooie!

I'll be interested in hearing what failed in there.

DougM