Massive Toyota Recall

[JBHorne]

Are you guys worried at all about the Toyota recall? I know the LC200 isn't listed, but don't you still wonder if it should be?

I'm not having any problems, but I have read a few internet complaints of this happening.

Anything we should/could do?

Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL
Details: UNCONTROLLED ACCELERATION OF 2008 TOYOTA LANDCRUISER RESULTING IN RUN-AWAY SITUATION ON INTERSTATE HIGHWAY IN RAIN. SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 90 MPH. GAS PEDAL WAS OPERATIONAL. ENGINE COULD NOT BE TURNED OFF. ENGINE RAN AT >7000 RPM WHILE IN PARK FOR SEVERAL MINUTES. NO CONTROL OF VEHICLE SPEED, ACCELERATION, OR ENGINE. REQUIRE MASSIVE BRAKE PRESSURE TO GET VEHICLE TO 60 MPH AND THEN PLACE ENGINE IN NEUTRAL. DURING ENTIRE EPISODE, ACCELERATOR WAS FREE MOVING AND MADE AUDIBLE "CLUNK" SOUND WHEN FOOT RAPIDLY REMOVED FROM PETAL. WHEN VEHICLE WAS IN NEUTRAL ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, THE ENGINE OSCILLATED FROM 8000 RPM TO 7000 RPM. ENGINE WOULD HAVE RAN ALL DAY HAD WE NOT FIGURED OUT TO KEEP IGNITION BUTTON DEPRESSED TO CUT OFF ENGINE. COULD NOT PLACE VEHICLE IN PARK GEAR DUE TO EXCESSIVE RPM AND HAD TO GO THROUGH REVERSE GEAR TO GET TO PARK GEAR. ENGINE COMPARTMENT SMOKING DUE TO HOT BRAKES. PETAL WAS NOT IMPEDED BY RUBBER FLOOR MAT INSTALLED IN VEHICLE AT TIME OF PURCHASE. TOYOTA ENGINEERS INSPECTED VEHICLE AND COULD NOT FIND ANY PROBLEM. BRAKES ARE WARPED/BLUED DUE TO EXTREME HEAT FROM BRAKING VEHICLE SPEED IN EXCESS OF 100 MPH TO 60 MPH IN RAIN. ELECTRONIC DASH IGNITION BUTTON DID NOT CUT OFF ENGINE. TOYOTA INFORMED US VIA E-MAIL THAT THERE WAS NO FAULT OR SAFETY ISSUE WITH TRUCK AND OK TO DRIVE. TRUCK HAD MIND OF ITS OWN....... *TR
Occurrences: 1 Injuries: 0 Fail Date: 10/30/2009 Deaths: 0 Date added to datbase: 1/31/2010

 

[sptsdn]

Personally, I'm not worried at all. I know how to apply the breaks, shift into neutral, turn the vehicle off, and call my dealer (and all in the at order).

I'll admit until the mass hysteria, er recall, I was unaware about the three-second "off" feature on the start/stop button. Now that I'm aware of it, I'm not terriblely concerned.

Do we know who makes the peddle assembly? Are they from the same manufacturer as those that have been recalled?

 

[007-FJC]

Where did you obtain that quote?

 

[donjuanmiguel]

"Are you guys worried at all about the Toyota recall?"

I wasn't, until you posted the description. Is this from an NTSB database?

Glad I purchased the fj62 as a daily driver.

 

[OGBeno]

Do we know who makes the peddle assembly? Are they from the same manufacturer as those that have been recalled?

You can check your peddle assy. because it is more than likely a throttle-by-wire system. There should be a control unit on the top portion of the pedal. On the pedal should be a manufacturer name--CTS is the American supplier with the supposedly "bad" units, or you will have a Denso unit from Japan: part number for the Denso unit: 78110-60020. This unit was introduced in 9/2007 and is current from there.

My hunch is that you will have a Denso unit since these are assembled at the Yoshiwara Plant and Denso is across town in Toyota City.

I'm not convinced this is necessarily a supplier-specific pedal issue. So have a check and talk with your dealer if you are having any second doubts.

The 200 series is not included in the recall.

 

[dtt255]

"Are you guys worried at all about the Toyota recall?"

I wasn't, until you posted the description. Is this from an NTSB database?

Glad I purchased the fj62 as a daily driver.

XX2

 

[chimyz]

I am a tad nervous, but pay attention to your task at hand and all will be ok.
All that being said...I have been looking at picking up an older car without a computer.

 

[uzj100]

If you are worried, I will trade you even for my 100 series. Also, I would say Toyota is a good stock to buy right now. Down 19% in 3 weeks and still by far the best car company on the planet.

 

[1loudLX]

On the pedal should be a manufacturer name--CTS is the American supplier with the supposedly "bad" units, or you will have a Denso unit from Japan: part number for the Denso unit: 78110-60020. This unit was introduced in 9/2007 and is current from there.

I thought it wasnt that simple.

 

[OGBeno]

I thought it wasnt that simple.

It isn't. I'm just telling you what the official word is.

 

[pman]

I think the media is blowing this out of proportion, yes Toyota has had some quality issues due to its expansion, but I personally think the media is milking this to give the American manufacturers a chance to catch up with Toyota (good luck with that).

On CNN this morning I saw a report of a guy with an 08 or 09 Avalon that didnt know how to turn off his own car in an emergency (its a push button start). I think thats the problem with this, people dont know how to operate their own vehicles' safety features. I have know about the 3 second thing for over two years now, and none of my vehicles have push button starting.

I guarantee you that incident with a 200 is some paranoid moron that is freaking cause of the media hype. Did no one notice that the report claims the engine running at over 7000 RPM for several minutes, even hitting 8000 RPM, redline on a 3UR-FE is 6000 RPM, what gives?? The tach doesn't even go past 7000 for crying out loud!! Even if the accelerator pedal has a problem, the rev limiter would kick in.....common sense people......there is no override for the rev limiter.

For all you 200 owners, the LC goes through possibly the most stringent testing of any vehicle in the world.....5 years, 1500 testing engineers, atleast 3 countries/continents, and about 1,000,000 miles of real world driving, plus it 100% built in Japan......the vast majority of affected vehicles are not. I highly doubt there will be problems like that on the 200 series.

 

[donjuanmiguel]

I saw that same report and at first thought it silly. However, not many car buyers read the manuals so few would know to press the start button for 3 seconds in order to kill the engine. Additionally, none of us would expect our new vehicles, or old for that matter, to suddenly accelerate without input. That would be quite unnerving. Imagine yourself in traffic when it begins to accelerate, you step on brake to avoid crashing into the next car and nothing happens. Lots of things are going through your mind and many drivers are not prepared to trouble shoot on the fly while avoiding collisions. Tough situation in my view.
Hopefully all manufactures will learn from this and concentrate more on quality and quality control. Cheap parts now only mean more expense for everyone down the road, something Toyota used to be known for. With this, they will be again.

 

[pman]

I saw that same report and at first thought it silly. However, not many car buyers read the manuals so few would know to press the start button for 3 seconds in order to kill the engine.

I have never read the owners manual for a car either......but I still know what to do with a car that is not behaving correctly, whether its push button or key ignition

Additionally, none of us would expect our new vehicles, or old for that matter, to suddenly accelerate without input. That would be quite unnerving. Imagine yourself in traffic when it begins to accelerate, you step on brake to avoid crashing into the next car and nothing happens. Lots of things are going through your mind and many drivers are not prepared to trouble shoot on the fly while avoiding collisions. Tough situation in my view.

You shouldnt have to trouble shoot on the fly.....as a RESPONSIBLE driver you would know how to react to such a situation.

When a person's vehicle starts to hydroplane, if they do not react appropriately.....they crash, but if you know how to handle hydroplaning......9 times out of 10, you'll be fine.......same things applies to this......regardless of the presence of a flaw in the vehicle, as the driver of that vehicle it is your RESPONSIBILITY to know how to control your vehicle.

Now if the push button, the brakes, and changing the gear selection wouldn't stop the car, its a different story......but so far it seems that changing gears or turning off the engine will stop the vehicle.

 

[1loudLX]

I just went and tested the 3-second hold of the ignition button on my friends IS-F. Killed it while driving down the road. Throwing it in neutral is much easier though and works every time all the time...instantly.

 

[96r50]

I saw that same report and at first thought it silly. However, not many car buyers read the manuals so few would know to press the start button for 3 seconds in order to kill the engine...

And who's fault is that? If a car manufacturer includes the feature and documents it in the main piece of literature that explains your new multi-thousand dollar purchase, but the customer doesn't read it, then the customer is an idiot.

Rentals are a bit of a different story, but if I got in a car that had a new-to-me system, especially one as important as the ignition, I would take a minute and at least glance at that section of the manual.

...
You shouldnt have to trouble shoot on the fly.....as a RESPONSIBLE driver you would know how to react to such a situation.

When a person's vehicle starts to hydroplane, if they do not react appropriately.....they crash, but if you know how to handle hydroplaning......9 times out of 10, you'll be fine.......same things applies to this......regardless of the presence of a flaw in the vehicle, as the driver of that vehicle it is your RESPONSIBILITY to know how to control your vehicle.

Now if the push button, the brakes, and changing the gear selection wouldn't stop the car, its a different story......but so far it seems that changing gears or turning off the engine will stop the vehicle.

I agree with the idea that the driver should take responsibility for driving the car. Drivers should know how to brake, steer or disable the car they are driving. If you need Brake Assist to help you stop, you were probably following too close. If you need VSC to prevent you from ending up in the ditch, you were probably going too fast (generalizations to be sure, but the idea is true). Sadly, responsibility is not high on the list of important life skills these days.

 

[M1911]

I'm not concerned about sudden acceleration. In the unlikely event it happens to my 4Runner, I'll hit the brakes, throw it in neutral, and steer towards the curb. Yes, I'm aware that my truck has a Denso assembly, which is not a subject of this recall.

But Toyota is not without fault in this situation. Toyota first swore that the problem was pedal entrapment due to unsecured floormats, even though Toyota had known for months prior that there was a problem with the CTS pedal assemblies.

Many folks believe that the pedal assembly problem is not the true issue and that it lies with the electronics. Other manufacturers have overrides in their electronic throttle, so that if you press on throttle and brake at the same time that it cuts the throttle. Those manufacturers are not having the same frequency of reports of sudden acceleration.

It seems clear to me that Toyota covered up the problem with the CTS pedal assemblies and now are reaping what they sowed.

 

[LukeZero]

You can check your peddle assy. because it is more than likely a throttle-by-wire system. There should be a control unit on the top portion of the pedal. On the pedal should be a manufacturer name--CTS is the American supplier with the supposedly "bad" units, or you will have a Denso unit from Japan: part number for the Denso unit: 78110-60020. This unit was introduced in 9/2007 and is current from there.

My hunch is that you will have a Denso unit since these are assembled at the Yoshiwara Plant and Denso is across town in Toyota City.

I'm not convinced this is necessarily a supplier-specific pedal issue. So have a check and talk with your dealer if you are having any second doubts.

The 200 series is not included in the recall.

Beno- I have been largely silent on this "issue" but here goes.

All of the vehicles affected by the recall are "drive by wire". Meaning there is no throttle cable in the sense we're familiar with. The throttle pedal assembly is a potentiometer that sends a signal as to its position to the PCM (powertrain control module). This signal is interpreted (along with many other signals from countless other sensors throughout the vehicle) and a signal is generated to a small motor on the throttle body itself. If, at any time, the signal from the throttle pedal assembly needs to be "overridden" because something is "out of whack"- the PCM should be able to accomplish this. Think about a traction control system. If the ABS sensor in a hub assembly senses that that tire is spinning faster than the other wheels (ie. slipping), it can apply the brakes to the wheel that is spinning (think ATRAC) or, back out of the throttle, regardless of how hard the driver is pushing down on the pedal assembly. I have been suspicious of a software problem or an EMF [electo-magentic field] problem. For Toyota to admit to a "computer problem" is more difficult than to blame floor mats being out of position, or blame component manufacturers for faulty parts.

Some will notice that my location is Elkhart, IN. I live 6 blocks from CTS. One of my good customers is an engineer at CTS. My conversation with him was completely off-the-record. He could lose his job for speaking about this without Toyota's consent. His position is that CTS made parts EXACTLY to the specifications provided by Toyota. They submitted prototypes to Toyota for testing, to be sure that if they [CTS] made several million of them, they [the throttle pedal assemblies] would be purchased and used. The parts were accepted by Toyota as being made to the specifications provided.

Do I believe the media hype about all this? Absolutely not! Did CTS make faulty parts? I don't believe so. Does Toyota have a software problem? I believe so. Has Toyota handled this as well as they could have? Not even close.

Rant over.

Luke

 

[OGBeno]

Beno- I have been largely silent on this "issue" but here goes.

All of the vehicles affected by the recall are "drive by wire". Meaning there is no throttle cable in the sense we're familiar with. The throttle pedal assembly is a potentiometer that sends a signal as to its position to the PCM (powertrain control module). This signal is interpreted (along with many other signals from countless other sensors throughout the vehicle) and a signal is generated to a small motor on the throttle body itself. If, at any time, the signal from the throttle pedal assembly needs to be "overridden" because something is "out of whack"- the PCM should be able to accomplish this. Think about a traction control system. If the ABS sensor in a hub assembly senses that that tire is spinning faster than the other wheels (ie. slipping), it can apply the brakes to the wheel that is spinning (think ATRAC) or, back out of the throttle, regardless of how hard the driver is pushing down on the pedal assembly. I have been suspicious of a software problem or an EMF [electo-magentic field] problem. For Toyota to admit to a "computer problem" is more difficult than to blame floor mats being out of position, or blame component manufacturers for faulty parts.

Some will notice that my location is Elkhart, IN. I live 6 blocks from CTS. One of my good customers is an engineer at CTS. My conversation with him was completely off-the-record. He could lose his job for speaking about this without Toyota's consent. His position is that CTS made parts EXACTLY to the specifications provided by Toyota. They submitted prototypes to Toyota for testing, to be sure that if they [CTS] made several million of them, they [the throttle pedal assemblies] would be purchased and used. The parts were accepted by Toyota as being made to the specifications provided.

Do I believe the media hype about all this? Absolutely not! Did CTS make faulty parts? I don't believe so. Does Toyota have a software problem? I believe so. Has Toyota handled this as well as they could have? Not even close.

Rant over.

Luke

Which is why I said that this issue is probably not a "supplier" issue. This is probably a Toyota issue. And I agree that Toyota has handled this so incorrectly that it should immediately make it into all business school management books on what not to do during a crisis.

Again, I've said it in this thread that there's a lot more to this that Toyota isn't saying, that folks at CTS/Denso are not saying either. And that this situation is not simple in any way, shape, or form.

Didn't mean to pigeon-hole the good people of Elkhart!!

 

[pman]

Beno- I have been largely silent on this "issue" but here goes.

All of the vehicles affected by the recall are "drive by wire". Meaning there is no throttle cable in the sense we're familiar with. The throttle pedal assembly is a potentiometer that sends a signal as to its position to the PCM (powertrain control module). This signal is interpreted (along with many other signals from countless other sensors throughout the vehicle) and a signal is generated to a small motor on the throttle body itself. If, at any time, the signal from the throttle pedal assembly needs to be "overridden" because something is "out of whack"- the PCM should be able to accomplish this. Think about a traction control system. If the ABS sensor in a hub assembly senses that that tire is spinning faster than the other wheels (ie. slipping), it can apply the brakes to the wheel that is spinning (think ATRAC) or, back out of the throttle, regardless of how hard the driver is pushing down on the pedal assembly. I have been suspicious of a software problem or an EMF [electo-magentic field] problem. For Toyota to admit to a "computer problem" is more difficult than to blame floor mats being out of position, or blame component manufacturers for faulty parts.

Some will notice that my location is Elkhart, IN. I live 6 blocks from CTS. One of my good customers is an engineer at CTS. My conversation with him was completely off-the-record. He could lose his job for speaking about this without Toyota's consent. His position is that CTS made parts EXACTLY to the specifications provided by Toyota. They submitted prototypes to Toyota for testing, to be sure that if they [CTS] made several million of them, they [the throttle pedal assemblies] would be purchased and used. The parts were accepted by Toyota as being made to the specifications provided.

Do I believe the media hype about all this? Absolutely not! Did CTS make faulty parts? I don't believe so. Does Toyota have a software problem? I believe so. Has Toyota handled this as well as they could have? Not even close.

Rant over.

Luke

You've made a very good point about how Toyota has handled this, but I just want to play devil's advocate for a moment, I don't mean to discredit you or your friend, nor do i mean to be rude in anyway.....

You said that CTS submitted parts that were to Toyota specs for testing and that Toyota approved the parts and production began. I would like to point out that does not necessarily mean CTS parts are still up to quality. If they are producing millions of these parts, it is very possible for them to at some point start to become out of spec.

A similar scenario occurred with the 100 series trannies. The supplier initially provided good transmissions that were to Toyota standards, however at some point in 2000, a batch of the trannies had out of spec parts and the trannies on some 2000/2001 LC would fail between 50K-100K miles. Toyota discovered the flaw once it was to too late, and so far as we can tell, they terminated their contract with that supplier.

What Im getting at is while you may be right about the software issues, I still think it is way to early in the investigation of the issues to completely rule out the pedals

 

[OGBeno]

You've made a very good point about how Toyota has handled this, but I just want to play devil's advocate for a moment, I don't mean to discredit you or your friend, nor do i mean to be rude in anyway.....

You said that CTS submitted parts that were to Toyota specs for testing and that Toyota approved the parts and production began. I would like to point out that does not necessarily mean CTS parts are still up to quality. If they are producing millions of these parts, it is very possible for them to at some point start to become out of spec.

A similar scenario occurred with the 100 series trannies. The supplier initially provided good transmissions that were to Toyota standards, however at some point in 2000, a batch of the trannies had out of spec parts and the trannies on some 2000/2001 LC would fail between 50K-100K miles. Toyota discovered the flaw once it was to too late, and so far as we can tell, they terminated their contract with that supplier.

What Im getting at is while you may be right about the software issues, I still think it is way to early in the investigation of the issues to completely rule out the pedals

Problem with this theory is that there are millions of other throttle-by-wire pedals produced by CTS in other makes (GM/Ford/Honda, etc.) that have not had any of the issues Toyotas have.

That said, ironically--counter acting my own argument--none of these issues are present in Japanese made throttle-by-wire pedals produced by Denso. There is no recall or any issue with the Japanese versions of these vehicles or the part number associated with this recall.

Even more interesting: CTS makes these kind of assy. for many different industries--aerospace, medicine, manufacturing, etc.

So in the end, I am left wondering, what really is going on? I have no idea. I have no direct line to any information that others cannot read on line. Toyota is definitely keeping their mouths shut. But interestingly enough, Toyota in Nagoya has tested every possible variation of electromagnetic interference, mechanical interference, etc. on these pedal assy's as well as the ECU and has not been able to re-produce any of the issues encountered by American drivers...

I'm calling bull**** and saying that the American driver is just plain dumb.....