How do I get my hands on some of that jet fuel to run in my 2H?
Jet fuel in a 1kz?
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So a bit of an update. I tried @Felde suggestion of running it straight from a Jerry can full of diesel. Problem is, nothing seems to be coming through. I’ve taken a couple of injector lines completely off and whether I’m cranking or pumping the prime valve, there’s no fuel coming out. I think this tells me the pump is dead. Unless…I’m curious if a faulty crank shaft position sensor could be causing the pump to not want to pump. Thoughts?
Fix aircraft for a living.
Hi
Back after a good night
..
As a chemical engineer, my input to the discussion is;
Jet A has roughly similar chemical characteristics to diesel. However the devil is in the detail. The main differences are lubricating properties, viscosity and additives. Minor differences are in Flashpoint and cetan number (both contributing to the self-ignition properties under pressure in a mixture with air).
Wolf Suit said, he used additive to enhance the lubrication properties . Jet A has almost no lubrication properties. I doubt, the additive can fully make up for the lubricating properties of normal diesel in Jet A.
But regardless of what exact Flashpoint or viscosity, the Jet A should give any reaction in the engine (puffing, stuttering, white smoke ...). No reaction at all to me indicated no juice at all. Apparently I was on the right track.
So, I'd go for the usual suspects in this case: Filters and prime. I have no idea on what the ECU does or doesn't in this game, though.
The Jet A additives may also interfere with some materials in the fuel system and lead to e.g. swollen rubbers.
But eventually, I'm pretty sure, the Jet A will take (or already has taken) its toll, mainly due to the insufficient lubrication properties.
Your IP may have died.
For the next steps: Skip the Jet A by now and get it back to run on diesel first.
Nothing is free. You pay for this Jet A by hassle, downtime, durability of your engine, parts and work.
(Similar BTW applies to these homemade diesel, which I see being discussed a lot recently in the US, cooked from anything between old transformer oil and fish oil).
I'm not exactly with OGBeno concerning the funny aspects of this thread, but it's definitely one of the interesting ones, which gives the opportunity for new insights and learnings.
@Wolf Suit please keep us updated on your findings.
Good Luck Ralf
Back after a good night
..As a chemical engineer, my input to the discussion is;
Jet A has roughly similar chemical characteristics to diesel. However the devil is in the detail. The main differences are lubricating properties, viscosity and additives. Minor differences are in Flashpoint and cetan number (both contributing to the self-ignition properties under pressure in a mixture with air).
Wolf Suit said, he used additive to enhance the lubrication properties . Jet A has almost no lubrication properties. I doubt, the additive can fully make up for the lubricating properties of normal diesel in Jet A.
But regardless of what exact Flashpoint or viscosity, the Jet A should give any reaction in the engine (puffing, stuttering, white smoke ...). No reaction at all to me indicated no juice at all. Apparently I was on the right track.
So, I'd go for the usual suspects in this case: Filters and prime. I have no idea on what the ECU does or doesn't in this game, though.
The Jet A additives may also interfere with some materials in the fuel system and lead to e.g. swollen rubbers.
But eventually, I'm pretty sure, the Jet A will take (or already has taken) its toll, mainly due to the insufficient lubrication properties.
Your IP may have died.
For the next steps: Skip the Jet A by now and get it back to run on diesel first.
Nothing is free. You pay for this Jet A by hassle, downtime, durability of your engine, parts and work.
(Similar BTW applies to these homemade diesel, which I see being discussed a lot recently in the US, cooked from anything between old transformer oil and fish oil).
I'm not exactly with OGBeno concerning the funny aspects of this thread, but it's definitely one of the interesting ones, which gives the opportunity for new insights and learnings.
@Wolf Suit please keep us updated on your findings.
Good Luck Ralf
No idea about Canadian laws but it would be illegal due to federal highway tax laws to run in the US except maybe if it was only for off-road/agricultural use. Of course the chances of getting caught are probably less than 1 in a million. Just FYI.
@mongoose2231 , When aircraft are "over-fueled" and hence overweight for a legal takeoff. They need to be de-fueled. The Jet A that is de-fueled cannot legally be put in another aircraft even though it is "probably" not contaminated, aviation authorities won't allow it. This how some people get access to "free" fuel.
@Wolf Suit , Your IP was already getting up there in age, and the Jet A probably just push it over the edge, imo.
@Wolf Suit , Your IP was already getting up there in age, and the Jet A probably just push it over the edge, imo.
Hello,
It is worth noting that the ECU in EFI engines relies on a sensor to monitor the fuel detonation in the cylinders. Then it uses this information to control the fuel that the injection pump supplies. If the fuel burns different, sensor data varies, and the ECU tends to "overreact" in order to adjust. The result is an overworked pump.
This is a simplified description, as there are other sensors that feed data to the ECU, but it is a good notion of what happens.
Both the 2L and 1KZ engines on 78 Series trucks are of the EFI variety.
On the other hand, fuel with a different viscosity may not be able to lubricate the injection pump components as the designers intended, thus causing premature wear.
Either way, there is an injection pump that undergoes additional wear and tear.
This is why I mentioned the viscosity additive.
Juan
I think the moral of the story is that you shouldn’t run this iteration of fuel in a IP that wasn’t designed to push this fuel.
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Cheers
I've run a few thousand gallons of jet-A through a direct injected 7.3 in a 2001 F-250, all in its first 100k miles.
Never mixed any additives into the jet-A.
Never had any problems. Closing in on 300k miles and still on 7 of the 8 original injectors.
Purely anecdotal of course. Could be I just got lucky.
Never mixed any additives into the jet-A.
Never had any problems. Closing in on 300k miles and still on 7 of the 8 original injectors.
Purely anecdotal of course. Could be I just got lucky.
I've been searching for a definitive answer to this question for a while. I bought my first diesel-powered truck (2016 Ram 2500, 6.7L Cummins Turbodiesel) last year with 32K miles on it. I maintain helicopters on the Gulf Coast for a living, so I have access to nearly limitless Jet-A (or JP-4, I think) from defueled helicopters since it's illegal to reuse it in the aircraft. I've had many coworkers in the past 3 decades in aviation run Jet-A in their trucks, but mostly pre-emissions regulations models. The main issue I'm aware of is with those running CP4 fuel pumps notorious for their unreliability due to their fuel lubrication. I'm no diesel engine expert by any means, so please correct me if I'm wrong. My truck has the much better CP3 fuel pump, which seems to handle turbine fuel a lot better.
With the ridiculous price of pump diesel now I'd really like to start using the "free" Jet-A I have access to. Every A&P mechanic I know running Jet-A in their vehicle has their own opinion on what to add to it to prevent damaging their engine. Maybe I'm asking too much, but I'd like a definitive professional answer to the question of what to add and what ratio to use.
BTW, roughly how much does it cost to have a fuel sample analyzed by an independent lab? I think having a side-by-side analysis of Jet-A and pump diesel might allow me to figure out myself what and how much to add to Jet-A to eliminate any risk to my engine.
I just joined the forum and this is my first post. Looking forward to learning and sharing my knowledge with seasoned diesel folks. Cheers!
I would imagine there are already in depth analysis reports of both fuel types available. If it were me I would not run a low lubricity fuel in a modern common rail diesel, beyond just the HPFP you also need to consider how the lift pumps, injectors, other parts of the fuel system and emissions equipment (if equipped) would deal with the different fuel. All the above components are much, much more expensive on the newer diesels compared to old DI or IDI engines.
The Navy ship I was on back in the 80's had JP5 for the helo's and it is what we ran in the diesel powered small boats. A Detroit 671 and a small 4 cylinder Westerbeke. I never understood why since diesel fuel had more lubricity and more BTU's of energy per volume. Especially since our main engines were gas turbines that ran DFM (Marine Diesel Fuel) so I don't know the reason for the fuel choice.
We had larger injectors in our engine with the JP5 than what the diesel fueled engines typically ran. (to compensate for the power loss is what we were told.) They were more prone to stuck injectors and these were mechanical unit injectors on the Detroit. The Westerbeke had an injection pump but it was loose tolerances compared to todays engines. They were kind of gutless compared to the diesel fueled engines I was used to on shore bases.
If you look up the data/specs on the different types of jet fuel you will see why you shouldn't run it in your modern common rail engine. Lack of lubricity and no cetane spec and IDK what else. There may be additives out there to make up for the lubricity. Are the additives safe to use? This is one of those just because you can, doesn't mean you should situations.
Might be worth the risk to experiment to some. Not me personally though.
We had larger injectors in our engine with the JP5 than what the diesel fueled engines typically ran. (to compensate for the power loss is what we were told.) They were more prone to stuck injectors and these were mechanical unit injectors on the Detroit. The Westerbeke had an injection pump but it was loose tolerances compared to todays engines. They were kind of gutless compared to the diesel fueled engines I was used to on shore bases.
If you look up the data/specs on the different types of jet fuel you will see why you shouldn't run it in your modern common rail engine. Lack of lubricity and no cetane spec and IDK what else. There may be additives out there to make up for the lubricity. Are the additives safe to use? This is one of those just because you can, doesn't mean you should situations.
Might be worth the risk to experiment to some. Not me personally though.
There’s the old saying nothing is of nothing