Build Yeller Gold

[Ol Yeller]

I hope this information helps you and isn’t coming across as me being an armchair internet prick.

It absolutely does thanks.





And we already established in the coil spring thread the other bit, no?

 

[Ol Yeller]

Got my son to help throw the housing in and be a second set of hands, I actually think he may have enjoyed shop time tonight...but often does not

So a few pics of the springs in cycle etc.

Full droop right at 7”

Full stuff and the spring is funky

When the shackle maxes out there is still about an inch to bump stop

With that side stuffed the droop side shackle was still happy

 

[Ol Yeller]

Then put it back on the stands and off the hoist arms again to get a rough idea of the loaded shackle angle, because I was originally only really going to check this and was curious, had some ~200lbs added weight on it and we both jumped on the frame to get it relaxed a bit.

Given the droop angle I think the hanger is in a good spot.

So I think I need about 1” more shackle length to get a fully usable spring travel. I’ll do a temp mock-up to confirm.

I may just make new side plates and reuse the grease able pins.

 

[RUSH55]

Looks great I think you’re right about the 1” longer shackle - give you a touch more travel and bring your angle back up slightly, maybe closer to 60 degrees.

 

[J Mack]

So I think I need about 1” more shackle length to get a fully usable spring travel. I’ll do a temp mock-up to confirm.

What shackle angles are you shooting for at both ends of travel?

 

[Ol Yeller]

What shackle angles are you shooting for at both ends of travel?

Seeing where I’m at and what can move where...I’ll be happy if I can get droop at ~0* and the static angle closer to 70-75* , I’m honestly (naively?) not that concerned with full stuff angle so long as the spring/shackle don’t bind (or invert for that matter)

If I was interested in getting way more involved I could come up with some wild design to get up through the frame like you did, but being outboard, I’m trying for a bit of KISS principal.

 

[Ol Yeller]

Someone ( @RUSH55 ?) had mentioned to shoot for the front spring eye to be higher than the rear at ride height, by how much?

I might actually try to math out a shackle length now that I have some measurements to work from...

 

[J Mack]

Seeing where I’m at and what can move where...I’ll be happy if I can get droop at ~0* and the static angle closer to 70-75* , I’m honestly (naively?)

Once you go past 45° the shackle angle starts unloading the spring quickly.

If I was interested in getting way more involved I could come up with some wild design to get up through the frame like you did, but being outboard, I’m trying for a bit of KISS principal.

I used the rule of thumb shoot for a vertical shackle with the springs at full droop and about a 45° angle at full compression but this picture shows best that may not be realistic for the front of a pig. The tape is at 45°.

I wouldn’t recommend my solution to the problem even though it works well I don’t believe it’s the best answer.

I might actually try to math out a shackle length now that I have some measurements to work from...

This guy has an interesting theory for working out shackle length.





Quote "8(growth)*3 (120 degrees is 1/3 of a circle, so multiply by 3 to get circumference) = 24". now you solve for radius: 24/ 3.14 (pi)=approx 8" diameter /2 = 4" radius. NOW TO SIMPLIFY THAT EQUATION A BIT: just take your growth number and divide it by 2. a little simpler, but i think you should understand an equation in order to use it correctly. so a spring with 8" growth needs a 4" shackle. a spring with 10" growth needs a 5" shackle. and so on. this is only if you subscribe to my shackle angle part."



Link: Shackle length ?'s

 

[Ol Yeller]

Thanks for taking the time with that response , great info again. Yes I read about the spring rate vs shackle angle, (also read how flat the spring itself is getting has a big effect) but I’m hemmed in to a degree by what I’m working with. As you said the front of a pig only has so many options.

Off the top of my head the springs were ~46” flat and maybe 42” at free length (I’ll add the correct numbers here later) so the growth number divide by 2 is likely close to what the 3 1/4” OME shackles are right now.

My compromises will hopefully not be too regretful...there are a ton of Toyota’s running around with no mods other than bolt on the OME package and go, so at least I’ll be ahead of that.

 

[Ol Yeller]

I’ll add that because I’ve done custom rear hangers that are lower from the frame I’m getting more travel than stock hangers would provide, looking at the pics I bet the OME shackles would be suffice to get full travel off stock mounts.

 

[J Mack]

but I’m hemmed in to a degree by what I’m working with. As you said the front of a pig only has so many options.

If it was going to be a race vehicle and races are won and lost by such things then this would be an easy conversation. The stock Toyota system could be better and adding longer (more arch lift springs) makes this marginal system worse. Type “Anti-inversion shackles” into a google search and everything offered is Toyota related.

I took the challenge not because of a need to make it any better than it was with the OME Anti-inversion shackles in the factory mounts but I’m hardwired in a way that would have left me wondering “what if” and I needed to get that out of the way before I could be happy.



Good luck I’m sure it will drive down the road just fine and put miles of smiles on your face no matter what you come up with, always fun having the “what if” conversation with like minded people.

 

[Ol Yeller]

If it was going to be a race vehicle and races are won and lost by such things then this would be an easy conversation.

It would easier if building a racer for sure, just build what works (or what the rules will tolerate as “interpretations” for that matter)

Good luck I’m sure it will drive down the road just fine and put miles of smiles on your face no matter what you come up with, always fun having the “what if” conversation with like minded people.

Yes many smiles are coming for sure, as with all of life it’s the journey not the destination, having a good chat and exploring possibilities is the meat in the sandwich here.


And pictures...everyone loves pictures

 

[RUSH55]

Someone ( @RUSH55 ?) had mentioned to shoot for the front spring eye to be higher than the rear at ride height, by how much?

I might actually try to math out a shackle length now that I have some measurements to work from...

Hard to say how this *should* work out on a shackle forward design. Thinking it should be close to level or slightly higher on the shackle side.

 

[Ol Yeller]

Worked from home today so after lunch I took a beer to the shop and did some figuring...

**Stop now if this bores you, below is all just measuring and calculating crap.**

Found my angle finder, shackle loaded but without the 200 lbs extra.

Measured the spring eyes front and rear

Took note of the axle relative to old centre line

And came back in and ran numbers

My opinion:
So the trick to me looks like it is a balance of a bunch of stuff moving around a relatively fixed point.
With the outboarded hangers it’s not very practical to go through the frame for the killer shackles al-la @J Mack so the fixed constant is the bottom of the frame rail.
You can move the hanger for and aft but are really limited to just going where the spring is happy at full droop.
Then it’s all compromise on how far the shackle “pushes” the front spring eye down, if I go crazy long on the shackle it really gets the front eye quite a bit lower than the rear, from what I understand that is not great for handling and would also add to a castor correction.

I’m going to mock a side up with 95mm shackle as opposed to the 80mm the OME kit has, on paper it looks to be a good compromise, 69* angle and only gets the front eye 5/8” lower.

I’m open to observations or other options I haven’t seen, but pretty soon want to burn all this in.

 

[RUSH55]

Where I come from, there’s a saying that fits what I’m seeing in these pics - “Dead nuts”, which what I interpret as meaning that you pretty much can’t get any better. Or another, “On the money”.

So, there actually IS a way to run an offset shackle through the frame, but it looks so hideously redneck, that I, myself, dismiss it quickly with a nasally exasperated exhale and shake of the head. It’s the scenario when the through the frame shackle is exaggeratedly wide and has a puck spacer between the spring and inner shackle plate to make up the difference on the lower end. Something not too terrible maybe on a purpose built trail rig, but nothing I’d trust on interstate travel.

 

[Ol Yeller]

Yup, dead nuts is a familiar term for sure, I’m trying hard to get close.

I do know of the offset shackle you speak of, and yes I’m not going there for a multitude of reasons.

One of my buddy’s said just extend the bump stop and call it done, but for 4 pcs of plate and possibly buy a M? tap I can get it a bit closer and keep that last inch of travel...will be the cheapest travel I can buy.

 

[PabloCruise]

I agree 100% with what Rush said here.

Like I mentioned before I built my front suspension based on information I was given and got tied to something that didn’t work and was way too far along with my build before I realized just how bad is was. The rear spring hangers for my front springs are in the stock location as a result of the compromises that needed to be made after the fact, my front spring axle locating pins needed to be moved forward 1” on the new main leaves I had made to center the 35” tire between the rub points of the front fender.

I had somewhere around 6.5” to 7” of total front suspension travel with the OME springs and shackles before I ran into trouble and it didn’t ride as good as it does now. After I made the changes I have 12” plus of available travel with virtually the same springs that is limited to 10” with my bump stops and night and day difference on ride quality.



I hope this information helps you and isn’t coming across as me being an armchair internet prick.

I wished someone would have taken the time to type a reply when I was posting pictures of my setup and explain my potential issues, @Lil’John tried with pictures of his spring slides but I didn’t understand what he was trying to tell me and didn’t ask the correct questions before I got too far going the wrong direction.

Always the best when we can learn from the lessons others have paid for.

Kind of like "Why shovel the same "stuff" twice???"

 

[Ol Yeller]

So we got away up to see M&D at the ranch, got to help out re-doing some fields...

A few hours in the cat, never really ran one before.

Got back to the shackles...

Much better at full stuff

 

[Ol Yeller]

With load on

As good as I’m getting it I guess, might improve a bit with all the leafs back in

Made the second one and dressed them to shape, lots o grinding.

 

[RUSH55]

So these shackles you’re making are an inch longer?