Why are torsion bars so vilified? And were Land Cruisers ever designed for recreational off-roading?

[SaturnAscends]

I don't know what forums you're frequenting that you're seeing "dozens of complaints" about torsion bars. Vilified? Heavy wording. Were they designed for recreational off-roading? Designed for I have no idea, but are they capable of it, yes.

Not sure where you're going with the thread, are you shopping for a 100 or ?

I have my eye on one, but I remember you saying in another thread they're not the best in mud (perhaps due to their weight)?, which I see a lot of when I do manage to get out to the trails these days.

Go wheel a 100 and you’ll soon find the limits of the torsion bar setup.

Thankfully, most 100s had either a Rear Locker or ATRAC to kick in and assist.

Pointless thread?

Well that's part of what I was wondering, if a 100 with a rear locker or ATRAC would be better than a light, compact 4x4 with open diffs like my 96 Tacoma on slick rutted tracks, bogholes, etc. So much of the discourse around vehicle capability and so forth revolves around California and Utah where traction is plentiful, unlike the backwoods trails of the eastern US. I keep meaning to go out with some 100 series owners here locally to test this.

I suspect that someone has had the “unique idea”, that a long travel IFS 100 series, on 37” tires, with off the shelf parts, would be “cool” (again).

That seems like a self-defeating project to me. If you really need long travel and 37s, you might as well SAS or just build a tube buggy.

 

[jLB]

That seems like a self-defeating project to me. If you really need long travel and 37s, you might as well SAS or just build a tube buggy.

Yep, but you probably wouldn’t believe the number of posters that “NEED” 37” tires.

Normally after asking, “what’s the largest tires that fit?”, then adding 4”, pushing them 2.5” out, and then acting surprised, that they don’t fit.

 

[SaturnAscends]

I don't know what forums you're frequenting that you're seeing "dozens of complaints" about torsion bars. Vilified? Heavy wording. Were they designed for recreational off-roading? Designed for I have no idea, but are they capable of it, yes.

Not sure where you're going with the thread, are you shopping for a 100 or ?

I've just seen a lot of sneering comments from the kind of purists that would say the 80 was the last "real Land Cruiser" sold stateside.

 

[jLB]

I've just seen a lot of sneering comments from the kind of purists that would say the 80 was the last "real Land Cruiser" sold stateside.

When I purchased my 80 series, in 1994, the “purist” objected to the coil springs, and the price. Now it’s the epitome of offroad Land Cruisers…

 

[Altespace]

When I purchased my 80 series, in 1994, the “purist” objected to the coil springs, and the price. Now it’s the epitome of offroad Land Cruisers…

So, if we follow this trend, the forecast is there fore that in 2025 my 2000 100 series LC will be the best ever made

 

[LCReunion]

So, if we follow this trend, the forecast is there fore that in 2025 my 2000 100 series LC will be the best ever made

Nice try...but my 99 is already the best 100 series ever made.

At the risk of flames, this comes down to what is "wheeling" and what a "wheeler" is. I personally think rock crawling is a game(fun game) and rock crawlers are toys(again no denying the fun). You usually bring them on a trailer, like a snowmobile or jet ski.
4wd was invented to Go/Get somewhere, not just to try harder and harder obstacles repeatedly with no destination. I think our 2" lifted 33" tire 100s are amazing wheelers that will take you places the solid-axle-only people swear you can't go....and bring you back.
Would I take a (non-existent)105 with a 4.7/5.7 V8 5spd auto, or a 4.5 V8 twin turbo diesel...probably, but now its just fantasy.
I found our 100 while looking for my second 80 series. I have never regretted the purchase.

 

[newbielx470]

Most people don't live very close to Moab or any off-roading destinations. So 99% of the time/mileage is on highway or city driving. In this common MUD use case, IFS (and the gas V8, and 5sp auto) is way more comfortable...

 

[SaturnAscends]

Most people don't live very close to Moab or any off-roading destinations. So 99% of the time/mileage is on highway or city driving. In this common MUD use case, IFS (and the gas V8, and 5sp auto) is way more comfortable...

Yea but everyone with a 5 speed 100 series seems to think they have some sort of collector vehicle - the 4-speed 98-00s seem to be the best value, probably because more of them were sold before the Sequoia took most of the 100's market share in 2001. I prefer the simpler electronics and rear locker of the 98-99s anyway.

 

[SaturnAscends]

Nice try...but my 99 is already the best 100 series ever made.

At the risk of flames, this comes down to what is "wheeling" and what a "wheeler" is. I personally think rock crawling is a game(fun game) and rock crawlers are toys(again no denying the fun). You usually bring them on a trailer, like a snowmobile or jet ski.
4wd was invented to Go/Get somewhere, not just to try harder and harder obstacles repeatedly with no destination. I think our 2" lifted 33" tire 100s are amazing wheelers that will take you places the solid-axle-only people swear you can't go....and bring you back.
Would I take a (non-existent)105 with a 4.7/5.7 V8 5spd auto, or a 4.5 V8 twin turbo diesel...probably, but now its just fantasy.
I found our 100 while looking for my second 80 series. I have never regretted the purchase.

This was more or less my sentiment. The only downside is that you have to worry about the front diff, though as long as you use the rear locker judiciously and don't drove like a maniac they likely hold up just fine.

I just think the exhaust manifold leaks and the starter location are unfortunate on the 100 - fixing those involve just about as much effort/expense as fixing the head gasket and common oil leaks on an 80 series.

 

[newbielx470]

Yea but everyone with a 5 speed 100 series seems to think they have some sort of collector vehicle - the 4-speed 98-00s seem to be the best value, probably because more of them were sold before the Sequoia took most of the 100's market share in 2001. I prefer the simpler electronics and rear locker of the 98-99s anyway.

Sorry, I meant to emphasize 5sp Auto vs. 5sp Manual trans . Both 4sp and 5sp auto works fine.

The point is I can't stand driving a manual for offroading.
Though for desert crossing in extreme heat, manual can avoid trans overheating better than auto.

 

[SaturnAscends]

I've really been having my eye out for a 100 series, despite its questionable value on the used market these days - 10k for a neglected example in need of another $7k to be a reliable DD seems to be a common occurrence.

Even so, I've been given pause by multiple accounts of exhaust leaks developing on the otherwise-stellar 4.7, with some estimates for getting it fixed ranging as high as $4000! That and the starter location are starting to make the oil leaks and head gasket issues on the 1FZ look less daunting by comparison.

Anyway, I wanted to gauge how widespread this problem actually was. I went though a similar situation in my 3RZ Tacoma, and I'd like to avoid repeating it. In the 2.7 it can contribute to burnt valves and decreased fuel mileage - is this a concern with the 2UZ? Also, is there any concern of CO leaking into the cab? an exhaust leak is not something I want to mess around with.

 

[SaturnAscends]

Sorry, I meant to emphasize 5sp Auto vs. 5sp Manual trans . Both 4sp and 5sp auto works fine.

The point is I can't stand driving a manual for offroading.
Though for desert crossing in extreme heat, manual can avoid trans overheating better than auto.

If you know how to use it, a manual can be just as capable as an auto, if not moreso. Like I said earlier, I prefer the direct engagement of a manual gearbox instead of relying on an antique slushbox constantly spooling the torque converter.

 

[jLB]

Of the 3 that I have in the driveway, only 1 has had the cracked exhaust manifold issue. $4k is a ridiculous repair price.

Assuming that your $10k + $7k numbers are accurate, what else would you buy for $17k?

In my opinion, any 16-25 year old vehicle is going to need some “refurbishing” to be a reasonably reliable DD. I guess you could just “drive it until s*** breaks, or falls off”, but I prefer planned repairs to being stranded on the side of the road.

 

[Bisho]

I have my eye on one, but I remember you saying in another thread they're not the best in mud (perhaps due to their weight)?, which I see a lot of when I do manage to get out to the trails these days.

Well that's part of what I was wondering, if a 100 with a rear locker or ATRAC would be better than a light, compact 4x4 with open diffs like my 96 Tacoma on slick rutted tracks, bogholes, etc. So much of the discourse around vehicle capability and so forth revolves around California and Utah where traction is plentiful, unlike the backwoods trails of the eastern US. I keep meaning to go out with some 100 series owners here locally to test this.

That seems like a self-defeating project to me. If you really need long travel and 37s, you might as well SAS or just build a tube buggy.

There are a lot of us that spend a fair amount of time in the Ozarks enjoying our 100s. I think ATRAC is phenomenal, and I wouldn't trade it for lockers. I've been on many trails with others with locked 100s, and I fared the best in the lot. @OwnerCS lives in Conway and recently went to a 2002 from a locked 99, and has commented on how much better the 02 is.

Now mud can just suck (literally) and I prefer to avoid it if I can, but seldom do I turn around if its reasonable.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Combined your "searching for a 100, is this a problem" questions into one thread.

 

[jLB]

There are a lot of us that spend a fair amount of time in the Ozarks enjoying our 100s. I think ATRAC is phenomenal, and I wouldn't trade it for lockers. I've been on many trails with others with locked 100s, and I fared the best in the lot. @OwnerCS lives in Conway and recently went to a 2002 from a locked 99, and has commented on how much better the 02 is.

Now mud can just suck (literally) and I prefer to avoid it if I can, but seldom do I turn around if it’s reasonable.

I’ve got 2 with ATRAC, and 1 with lockers. Don’t I remember @OwnerCS having a front locker and a rear (factory) LSD in his 99 LX? ATRAC is darned good, but I believe placing it above (aftermarket F&R) lockers is a little silly.

Wouldn’t a pre-ATRAC (or post-ATRAC) vehicle, with aftermarket lockers, allow “wheel velocity”, that might be advantageous in mud, that ATRAC would erroneously “fix”?

 

[OwnerCS]

There are a lot of us that spend a fair amount of time in the Ozarks enjoying our 100s. I think ATRAC is phenomenal, and I wouldn't trade it for lockers. I've been on many trails with others with locked 100s, and I fared the best in the lot. @OwnerCS lives in Conway and recently went to a 2002 from a locked 99, and has commented on how much better the 02 is.

Now mud can just suck (literally) and I prefer to avoid it if I can, but seldom do I turn around if its reasonable.

@SaturnAscends has driven the trails across this creek and up the mountain on our last adventure from Van Buren so he knows where we go. I have a Harrop eLocker and working LSD from the LX that I will move to the LC at some point. But I haven't come close to exceeding the capability with ATRAC so changing it is a low priority.

 

[OwnerCS]

Torsion bars are not to be blamed for 100 series front control arm movement. Down travel is arrested by the UCA making contact with the frame cutout as shown in the picture.

 

[SaturnAscends]

Torsion bars are not to be blamed for 100 series front control arm movement. Down travel is arrested by the UCA making contact with the frame cutout as shown in the picture.

View attachment 3503889

Looks like nothing that couldn't be fixed with a plasma cutter

 

[SaturnAscends]

I’ve got 2 with ATRAC, and 1 with lockers. Don’t I remember @OwnerCS having a front locker and a rear (factory) LSD in his 99 LX? ATRAC is darned good, but I believe placing it above (aftermarket F&R) lockers is a little silly.

Wouldn’t a pre-ATRAC (or post-ATRAC) vehicle, with aftermarket lockers, allow “wheel velocity”, that might be advantageous in mud, that ATRAC would erroneously “fix”?

The consensus I've seen has been that ATRAC is great until you lift wheels, when it can become "confused" where the brute force of lockers will be better to get you through (see the video below).



I could see ATRAC being better than lockers in some situations, like a slick shaly hill climb in which it could do whatever it oculd to find any traction, rather than lockers that might just spin all four wheels.

I'd also be concerned about the shock loads from ATRAC on the front diff. Furthermore, how do we even know if it'd still be workinmg on a 2000 model, for instance? Does it go out or lose effectiveness over time like an LSD?