Recipe for rockcrawling on 37s with Elockers?

[AutoCraft Aus]

Rubbish. Shims wont spit out.

Yep, apparently the earth was flat once too, until more people saw it and realized the world was bigger than anything they had seen, and they needed to adjust their expectations to suit a bigger world than they could comprehend.

And given drifting is making a car unable to hook up, the load isnt transferred to thrust quite the same as 37s jammed in a rock crevice, so when building drifters where load isnt not amplified because of wanting slip, then its like polar opposites of 4wding bigger tyres and more power and lower gears really....

Scott probably will get this more than perhaps some others, but as the pinion tries to screw around on the crownwheel, it creates thrust against the shim, with side load. Its there because its what the solid pinion spacer as a complete unit stops from happening, and why we make it thick enough to support the bearing nib edges that keep the rollers in. Thats because the side pressure there from the torque thrust breaks the bearings next, when the rollers push against them. Its not hard to see how this load happens when your trying to spin the crownwheel with the pinion. Its this same side thrust that ends up making the bearing cap bolts stretch on one side that creates the clearance for the teeth to lose mesh and break as the next fusable link once you do a proper solid spacer set up.

The type of set up with a spacer and shims that are available at least have a fatter surface area to help with clamping compared to thinner walled units.

Heres what you find in the bottom of the housing normally, after the pinion loses pre load, if they havent been spat through the gears.

So here is the solid spacers we have cnc machined so they are very close to right length to begin, and the bearing in the pic shows how we maximize the surface are support for the bearing faces.

So when i first started building diffs like this was after going from solid pinion 45 series Cruiser diffs on 35s and a 350 chev conversion with no breakages in the early 90s until I got my first 400hp turbo petrol 80 in 1996 and broke the front diff in the first 2 weeks driving it at an offroad event. I wentr to the solid hemi carrier and solid spacer and more pre load on the carrier bearings to stop it.

That same truck 3 years later, after doing winch challenges, rallies, 36" tyres, and weekend abuse alot, got abused by the new owner at an event about 2 months after I sold it, that did the internet rounds for a while. same diffs I did way back when. They survive alot of the type of driving that is done here as this vid shows.

Most cruiser owners would cringe seeing that front diff and those wheels in the air, manual box, button clutch, big tyres on the rocks like that.

I still wouldnt recover someone in reverse though.

 

[nukegoat]

Yep, apparently the earth was flat once too, until more people saw it and realized the world was bigger than anything they had seen, and they needed to adjust their expectations to suit a bigger world than they could comprehend.

And given drifting is making a car unable to hook up, the load isnt transferred to thrust quite the same as 37s jammed in a rock crevice, so when building drifters where load isnt not amplified because of wanting slip, then its like polar opposites of 4wding bigger tyres and more power and lower gears really....

Scott probably will get this more than perhaps some others, but as the pinion tries to screw around on the crownwheel, it creates thrust against the shim, with side load. Its there because its what the solid pinion spacer as a complete unit stops from happening, and why we make it thick enough to support the bearing nib edges that keep the rollers in. Thats because the side pressure there from the torque thrust breaks the bearings next, when the rollers push against them. Its not hard to see how this load happens when your trying to spin the crownwheel with the pinion. Its this same side thrust that ends up making the bearing cap bolts stretch on one side that creates the clearance for the teeth to lose mesh and break as the next fusable link once you do a proper solid spacer set up.

The type of set up with a spacer and shims that are available at least have a fatter surface area to help with clamping compared to thinner walled units.

Heres what you find in the bottom of the housing normally, after the pinion loses pre load, if they havent been spat through the gears.

View attachment 1531509


So here is the solid spacers we have cnc machined so they are very close to right length to begin, and the bearing in the pic shows how we maximize the surface are support for the bearing faces.

So you do use shims? But somehow its ok?

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

Nope, use a solid spacer. We remove the shims from the bottom of the diff housing normally, after the diff loses pre load, not install them, Thats what this is all about, remember

.

I have in that image though for you, the spacer and shims supplied by some gear companies for comparison to the proper no shim solid spacers. After all, if its in 2 parts, spacer and shim, its not "A" solid spacer....is it.

Next question?

 

[scottryana]

That is good info. Ever considered an ARP bolt to replace the bearing cap bolts? Seems like a pretty cheap upgrade if you are stretching the stockers.

Nope, use a solid spacer. We remove the shims from the bottom of the diff housing normally, after the diff loses pre load, not install them, Thats what this is all about, remember

.

I have in that image though for you, the spacer and shims supplied by some gear companies for comparison to the proper no shim solid spacers. After all, if its in 2 parts, spacer and shim, its not "A" solid spacer....is it.

Next question?

 

[mudgudgeon]

Rubbish. Shims wont spit out.

The solid spacer method and additional preload above is well tested and proven over a lot of years in Aussie 80s for hardcore wheeling and competition rigs.
When you don't have D70s and 14 bolts readily available, other solutions need to be found for a stronger than stock diff build.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

The truck that stretched the bolts was on 42 swampers.

Its been on the list to look at to find something to upgrade it to, but a couple of broken ones in the same truck is all we have seen, but proof they solid pinion and pre load makes that part as good as it can be too pass it on to the bolts.

The other big block injected 80 chassis truck went to GU Patrol front diff in a 75 housing with new mounting ring and Cruiser side gears in the locker for the cruiser axles to be strong as it can be on 37s.

 

[White Stripe]

The truck that stretched the bolts was on 42 swampers.

Its been on the list to look at to find something to upgrade it to, but a couple of broken ones in the same truck is all we have seen, but proof they solid pinion and pre load makes that part as good as it can be too pass it on to the bolts.

The other big block injected 80 chassis truck went to GU Patrol front diff in a 75 housing with new mounting ring and Cruiser side gears in the locker for the cruiser axles to be strong as it can be on 37s.

Do you sell the solid spacers you make like in the pic or is it just for your own stuff?

 

[ReformedJeeper]

So for those of us stateside, do you know anyone building diffs with the solid pinion spacer method you suggest? Do you know where we could possibly source the required solid spacer?

Im not a fan of one ton axles on a toyota even if they are readily available out here. I feel tons lose too much ground clearance and I have to go to an even bigger tire to get it back.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

Yes we do, normally with the gear sets that get sent out or install kits.

Here like this,

Toyota Land Cruiser 80 series front all / 200 Series all rear only / 100 Series rear all

I dont know anyone who does, though my SNOWY stateside 80 was done at @sleeoffroad when I provided the spacers.

Any good diff shop should be able to, who has a lathe.

 

[scottryana]

Ken uses solid spacers for the most part, he does shim the spacer but for 99.90% of people driving 80's I am sure the solid spacer with a shim and 37's won't be an issue. Like I said the guys in Australia are pushing more power and beating the rigs much harder than just about anyone. I would think most people in the US build buggies for the kind of competitions they are doing.

If someone really wanted to go crazy, you could order a solid spacer that would have to be machined. Pay someone to partially assemble their diffs, send the shims out for machining and reassemble with upgraded bearing cap bolts, but I think this is just Mud being Mud. lol.

 

[nukegoat]

Im not convinced about all this for a few reasons...

1 - under load, forward, a high pinion is loaded against the inner pinion bearing. The massive amount of axial load forces the pinion into the pocket so I doubt any additional preload matters then.

2 - unless youre allowing the preload to go negative (slop) i have a very hard time believing that the compressive forces on the shim stack are enough to chew open the shims. Positive preload would prevent it. Even then I cant really wrap my head around the idea that youre plastically deforming shim stock to the point of failure unless you guys use lead shims or some malleable metal.

3- if you are running ridiculous preloads anyway i cant imagine the bearings surviving.

4 - you said within 1mm - thats .040" ??? Preload is set with solid spacers by adjusting .001" thicknesses. Somethings off here.

5 - the pinion deflection is negligible compared to ring gear deflection anyway (hence the appeal of load bolts in competitive applications)

6 - danas and plenty of other axle makers use solid spacers and shims without issue. Whats different there?

 

[nukegoat]

Ken uses solid spacers for the most part, he does shim the spacer but for 99.90% of people driving 80's I am sure the solid spacer with a shim and 37's won't be an issue. Like I said the guys in Australia are pushing more power and beating the rigs much harder than just about anyone. I would think most people in the US build buggies for the kind of competitions they are doing.

If someone really wanted to go crazy, you could order a solid spacer that would have to be machined. Pay someone to partially assemble their diffs, send the shims out for machining and reassemble with upgraded bearing cap bolts, but I think this is just Mud being Mud. lol.

I dont see why shims are any worse than the solid spacer. If you have enough load to deform a shim then wouldnt it deform the spacer too?

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

I dont see why shims are any worse than the solid spacer. If you have enough load to deform a shim then wouldnt it deform the spacer too?

@nukegoat From your previous questions, your skill set on this isnt enough to comprehend it fully, and I dont have the time to bring you up to speed. Your doubts, imagination and struggling to believe [your words BTW] is more to to with that lack of knowledge on it, than Im going to attempt to explain to you on a forum much further.

I will just say dont confuse compression force with thrust.

Dont confuse "massive" [must be a tech term?] pre loads and bearing life, because it has a spec for a reason. Some extra may shorten by a small %, but you have just plucked that out of the air really trying to make a point, and it looks a bit silly.

And if you use No 4 in your questions as an example, a lathe allows you to take away from the 40 thou to set the pre load exactly where you want it after measuring, so the thing that is off is your understanding, as a case in point to my whole post here

And no .001 paper thin shim to tear and spit out when thrust load on it.

Question 5, well when you stop all deflection by solid spacer, then the pinion head bends on the end until it contacts the carrier. This is where I mentioned a stronger carrier to stop flex there, and how the load is transferred to the carrier bolts on one side then as the next fail point.

Please dont deny it happens just because you cant imagine, believe, or highly doubt [your words] its possible.

 

[scottryana]

The only thing I can think of is there must be some axial and radial load? Where the separate pieces are shifting slightly because the bearing cap bolts have stretched causing some rocking? I really don't know as I have never seen it, but looking at these pics this shims look to have shifted and rubbed and them been pushed out? Like I said I think it is getting really in the weeds. It would be really hard to know if the shims cause the problem or the stretched bearing cap bolts did leading to the problem since I would think on tear down you would have both along with more mess.

I don't think until today we have ever even heard of this failure mode in the 80's diff in the US, so I would go with Ken's install and if someone is hard enough on diffs to see this kind of damage than at that time consider what else could be done. i.e. machined solid spacer to exact tolerances, upgraded bearing cap bolts, etc. But like I said I just haven't seen anyone beat their full bodied 80, with 42" tires and with 400+awhp that hard to get too worked up about it.

Pulling the thread back on track for a stock truck with 135awhp and 37" tires. I would have a solid third rebuild done by a very reputable source, like Ken at www.gearinstalls.com, I personally would do RCV 30/30 birf and inners up front, I would leave the rears stock but have them machined so they could be removed if twisted, and that is it. Maybe adjust your gearing in the axles and transfercase to be more in control on the trail. But be smart about how you drive it and understand how to fix it when it breaks or how to make do to get home if you have to.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

The bend of the pinion, [pinion head hitting the carrier it bends so far] or the collapse of the collapsable spacer momentarily are what causes the thrust, this breaks the gears, or leads to tear the shim and have it come out. The pre load is then lost, not always broken right then.

If the bolts stretch the teeth lose mesh and then they break, normally the corners off the teeth, if not that half circle right where the pinion spun in the gap of missing teeth. This break will also normally be on a pre Aug 02 Cruiser front diff right in the middle of the big hole in the carrier for the side gears, where the most flex is possible.

I have even seen galling of the shim surfaces from the load.

I have also seen the surfaces of the housing and bearing cap where they clamp together galled up as well, from bolt stretching allowing it to move around on the bolts.

I prefer the genuine cv's to be honest. I have never broken one, and they last a very long time.

 

[nukegoat]

@nukegoat From your previous questions, your skill set on this isnt enough to comprehend it fully, and I dont have the time to bring you up to speed. Your doubts, imagination and struggling to believe [your words BTW] is more to to with that lack of knowledge on it, than Im going to attempt to explain to you on a forum much further.

You're impressively arrogant. I guess if you're going to be a total prick about it, then that's your prerogative. Frankly, though, I think you're handwaving here because you don't actually understand the mechanical engineering, dynamic loads, tribology, material science, or whatever else is necessary to properly justify your theory. I don't deny that you have pictures of destroyed shims. But I am going to affirm that there's no way a normally setup diff will plastically deform and compress normal shims into oblivion like that. Neglect, bent components, slop in general, material failure, etc... maybe. The math doesn't support your theory though. Sorry.

Question 5, well when you stop all deflection by solid spacer, then the pinion head bends on the end until it contacts the carrier. This is where I mentioned a stronger carrier to stop flex there, and how the load is transferred to the carrier bolts on one side then as the next fail point.

Please dont deny it happens just because you cant imagine, believe, or highly doubt [your words] its possible.

OK, well, for anyone who has to pick up this thread and try to make sense of who's right or not, let's remember that this guy is advocating a stronger carrier to "stop deflection once the pinion head bends into it."

I think there's some shoddy installation / setup going on here with some voodoo math to justify it. As much as I can anticipate some sort of response about how hardcore everyone is wheeling down in Oz, I've never heard of this folklore in Ultra4, drag racing, tractor pulls, desert racing, etc.

Best of luck selling your wares to people. This is a dead horse.

 

[scottryana]

We stopped getting the front solid axle in 1997, so all of ours are pre Aug 02. Lol. Like I said I am sure you guys have some parts that we do not. I know it was AUS That had the 29 and 32 splined pinions we didn't have them here until guys started getting aftermarket gear sets.

I can see how when pushed very hard it becomes an issue and I am going to be using some of these ideas when I rebuild my big turbo truck and it's awesome you guys have already had the problems and found solutions I just don't think it's an issue for our mall crawlers here yet. Maybe as prices continue to fall and people start getting more and more abusive, but I think most people wheeling that hard here are going to a different platform or 60/14B, etc

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

Scott, the 100 ifs same same too, like 105 up to aug 02 when it was updated.

Uses the same cw and p.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

@nukegoat I call you ignorant, you call me arrogant, others understand how it works, your missing the point and on some safari on your own about theories etc. Notice how your right now out there one your own on this?

Its not a good look, maybe just go get some education on it, then come back when you can comprehend it. Attacking my motive or me personally isnt going to convince anyone of anything, other than your unable to communicate about the topic at hand, so go to integrity as your catch cry, to attempt to justify why your beliefs, theories, imagining [your words] have to be right in the end. It doesnt work like that.

And as for shoddy, I agree, we fix so many that have been done elsewhere, and like I say, over 500, done this way, and only ever 1 broken one back, thats all the math I need to prove my point to myself if Im taking money to make a difference to someones confidence and equipment for remote travelling.

In the mean time, if you can show me the math that doesnt support the theory, I would be happy to see it, if it exists.

Please post it up.

 

[mudgudgeon]

You're impressively arrogant. I guess if you're going to be a total prick about it, then that's your prerogative.

I'm not sure arrogance is the same as 20yrs ?? (I'll let Daz correct that figure) experience at the forefront of the landcruiser aftermarket here.
This has been a fix for busted diffs in stock standard 80s, 100s, 105s, and Hilux (Tacoma?), as well as a means of building competition tough diffs for the same for a long time over here. And no, we don't all beat on our rigs like the video posted earlier!

There's more than just Daz setting up diffs like this. There's been guys building competition diffs using machined solid spacers, increased preload, and deep contact patterns for a while with good results for competition rigs, not necessarily what you'd build for DD duties.

As much as I can anticipate some sort of response about how hardcore everyone is wheeling down in Oz, I've never heard of this folklore in Ultra4, drag racing, tractor pulls, desert racing, etc.

How many guys running Ultra 4 in USA are using Toyota diffs? I'd tip it is a relatively small number in mostly ftoys, or Tacoma, 4runners. All a lot lighter than an 80. And fitting a 4pinion locked carrier (ARB etc) goes part way to removing the failure mode.
If your building a purpose built buggy for ULTRA4, or desert racing in the USA, there's junkyards full of bigger, stronger corporate diff options available. In Aus, landcruiser is a FULL SIZE truck, we only have a very small handful of imported American F trucks, and even less of the Dodge/chrysler family, and wrecking yards full of landcruiser stuff.

There's different forces at play in tractor pulls (non existent in Aus) and drag racing (again, who drag races an 80?).
The handful of guys doing Aust4 racing (Ultra4 format) over here are using built up diffs, 14bolt, d60, d70 etc, but there's plenty of history of Toyota axles bring used and abused in other competition formats over here.


There's plenty of people who would struggle with the concept of 37 spline axles in an 80 for any tyre size, but hey, it's cool. Work with what you've got.

I don't think anyone it's selling this as the ONLY way to build a toyota diff for 37s. If I had thirds out to re-gear, I'd definitely, 100% go this route. I've wheeled my cruisers fairly hard (but with some mechanical sympathy) with 315s (35") on stock e-locked diffs with no issues.
I've busted a couple of CVs at times when I've let the red mist cloud my judgement
(eg, reverse front digs with steering on full lock. According to the collective wisdom, my stock hi-pinion front diff should have snapped like a carrot