Builds LX450 where to start!

[txbandogger]

I wonder if there is some kind of reaction going on with an element in the fluid. Is there any kind of "lubricant" you could add? I wonder if the chemical composition is changing from the heat cycles?

 

[scottryana]

Well the motor is sealed from the fluid so the fluid should never really touch anything in the motor. Only thing I can think of is I have it wired to come on with the key in acc position, if maybe kind of low-high-low-high voltage output as you turn the key through, acc-on-start?? That voltage variation with the switched fan is what they say killed it last time but this time the fan was not in the mix. I am the opposite of electrically inclined. I keep telling myself I need to learn since it's the one thing I farm out with zero knowledge of. :-/

 

[txbandogger]

How is the pump grounded? Have you checked to see no current is going through the frame (short)? Cant imagine the way its currently wired to ignition would be the culprit, but its tough to diagnose over the Internet lol. Put a volt meter on it and turn it over.... Any surges?

 

[2KCruiser]

I had the same issue with my oil pump return on my turbo. I ended up using the fuel pump signal and used a relay to power the pump. That way it only turns on when engine is cranking and stays on until the motor shuts down. It will not run the pump when the ACC or Ignition is on.

 

[scottryana]

Hmm that's really interesting. I wonder if this is a known problem with running pumps continuously in automotive use? I mean I have a lot of other pumps (water/meth, windshield washer, etc) to switches with no issues. I guess I better do some more research as its too expensive and too big of a pain in the ass to keep replacing.

I was going to run one of their engine water pumps on my other build so I guess it's a good thing to figure out now.

 

[2KCruiser]

I replaced my original Bosch pump on my E55 heat exchanger with a Johnson's CM30. Worked flawlessly for years and cooled close to 28degrees more than factory.

 

[txbandogger]

Ok going back and forth with ATF. Is there anyone particular that you spoke with about transmission work? Second, fixing to start buying engine parts... For the 700_800 hp range what do you think should be upgraded in the long block (have rods and pistons already) what valve spings would be a step down from your current build. Not looking to hit over 6k rpm so the custom cap thing is a little overboard no? Stock cam ok?

 

[scottryana]

@txbandogger The person I was emailing back and forth with was:

Patrick Papineau
Service/Sales Manager
Automatic Transmission Factory
2051 SW 70th Ave Bldg E-12
Davie, FL 33317
954-916-1155
http://www.atfspeed.com

I wanted to have a local yard deliver a transmission directly to them. They seemed kind of uninterested in helping me line that up and the yards that were kind of local weren't local enough to deliver and paying freight shipping for like 75 miles seemed kind of ridiculous, and then I got the rod and piston "sponsorship" from Titan and my power levels changed and I decided at what my target is going to be I really didn't trust the A343F, but....... that might be changing. I might not go all out with this build keep it at 700ish hp and start planning my next build. Lol.

For 6k rpm you will be fine with the stock shim on buckets. I am looking at 7500rpms and wasn't comfortable that I wouldn't loosing a shim at that speed. Kelford offers a lower spring rate from what I have and so does Supertech. I don't think I would keep the stock cam as it falls off drastically at the top, but some of the moderately upgraded Kelfords would be good to get a little more life without crazy duration since you don't want a huge duration in a turbo setup.

Ok going back and forth with ATF. Is there anyone particular that you spoke with about transmission work? Second, fixing to start buying engine parts... For the 700_800 hp range what do you think should be upgraded in the long block (have rods and pistons already) what valve spings would be a step down from your current build. Not looking to hit over 6k rpm so the custom cap thing is a little overboard no? Stock cam ok?

 

[txbandogger]

Yea that is the guy... Didn't seem overly excited about trying to fit the 340 gears into the 343. Trying to ship it to him and I don't have a clue.

Ha... We are cut from the same cloth... Already planning a GX470 build as a daily driver.

What are you doing for fueling? Especially if going 700ish. Are we going to have to buy custom injectors? (only finding 1000cc and think I just need 750cc) Will the supra pump handle that? Stock regulator ok?

 

[scottryana]

Haha yeah we certainly seem to be. I had a GX460 when I was living in Texas as my daily, it was very comfortable and plenty capable!

He shouldn't have to put the 340 gears into the 343 really all he should be doing is their billet accumulators, 2nd gear sprag assembly, billet forward piston, and then using the same manufacturer of clutches and steels they use for the Supra's and drilling out the valve body. They still use the stock gears in the Supra transmissions. I do not think it will be hard at all. Once he sees just how similar the two are I am sure he will have no issue, but I don't blame him for not committing without seeing one in person.

You probably won't be able to get away with 1000cc injectors if you really want 700awhp. You could if you were able to get there on 93 octane pump gas, but I don't think you will be able to. To push the boost levels and timing levels safely to reach 700awhp you are going to have to run E85. Probably have 2 maps one for pump and one for E85 or some type of flexfuel sensor depending on which ECU you pick so you can blend them and not be too worried. But with the massive drivetrain loss in the 80's (roughly 30%) 700awhp is about 1000hp at the crank requiring the old adage of about 1cc per hp on a 6 cylinder on 93 octane.

So you have two options:

- Shoot for 700awhp but know that you will need to use E85 to get there and size your injectors accordingly.
Roughly ID1300cc's 1300.60.11.D.6

- Or don't worry about hitting that 700awhp number and hit the max safe limit on pump gas which is probably around 20-21 maybe 22psi so I would guess around 500awhp and use an ID850 injector 850.60.11.D.6 or an ID1000 injector 1000.60.11.D.6, the 850s would get you there on 93 octane pump with room to spare. The 1000's would support about the same hp number as gas on E85 but with increased spool and major increases in torque giving you a little more later if you decided to change your mind on the E85.

For a fuel system you are pretty much going to be forced to run 2 pumps. The Supra pump is not going to supply the volume you are looking for especially if you decide to run E85 as it requires an additional 30% more fuel than pump gas. I was looking at a couple of options. Either doing 2 Aeromotive 340's in the tank, and wiring the second one to only come on at a predetermined boost level. Or doing an Aeromotive aluminum fuel type cell with their eliminator pump which flows about 1000lb/hr at a base fuel pressure of 43psi.

20g Eliminator Stealth Fuel Cell - Aeromotive.

The stock regulator might be ok, I am not sure, at that point you are kind of asking A LOT of a 20 year old regulator that was originally asked to only regulate 200hp worth of fuel. I would just bite the bullet and get a new regulator as well.

The other thing that you have not mentioned that you might need to be aware of is that if you are thinking about 700awhp and decide you have to hit that number. You are likely not going to be able to push that volume of fuel down the stock fuel lines...... So you are looking at running a teflon soft line to your fuel rail or getting a new section of hardline and plumbing it where the stock line sits. Not hard but something you want to be aware of. Running basically 1000hp worth of E85 you will be looking at a 1/2" hard line or -AN8.

 

[txbandogger]

That sounds awesome! But Iam aiming for 700 at the crank... 700 awhp I would have to re engineer the whole thing. My project is more along the lines of what you would have done to your silver truck if you had built a 4.6 long block for it. Im stealing some of your suspension ideas from this truck to be able to drive safely on the freeway.

Now saying all this... I will have a spare 1fzfe and it would sure be interesting to drop that in an sc300 and do what you are talking about.

 

[scottryana]

Oh for 700hp at the crank you should be able to get away with the ID850 injectors and pump gas. You will still need dual Aeromotive 340 pumps, you could do it with a 1000 but that's a huge pump to put in the stock tank. I would probably still go ahead and change out the fuel pressure regulator as the stock one has some age one it. I would go with a mild cam, probably a Kelford custom grind since it's the same price as a an off the shelf. Get the kelford or super tech valve springs and call it a day. Push it up to 21-22psi, keep the charge air cold with a good intercooler and water/meth injection or both. And you should be set!

 

[txbandogger]

Funny thing is I already have dual tanks... Ok so do you have a link on how the hell to plumb that? Ive never had to run dual fuel pumps. Will i need two regulators as well?

My old civic (last car I built) didn't need all that.

Oh for 700hp at the crank you should be able to get away with the ID850 injectors and pump gas. You will still need dual Aeromotive 340 pumps, you could do it with a 1000 but that's a huge pump to put in the stock tank. I would probably still go ahead and change out the fuel pressure regulator as the stock one has some age one it. I would go with a mild cam, probably a Kelford custom grind since it's the same price as a an off the shelf. Get the kelford or super tech valve springs and call it a day. Push it up to 21-22psi, keep the charge air cold with a good intercooler and water/meth injection or both. And you should be set!

 

[scottryana]

I don't have a link but hopefully I can pretty quickly explain how I would do it.

In the main tank, I would remove the old factory pump and install (2) Aeromotive 340 pumps I would likely do offset pickups just to make the clearance easiest.

I would use the stock plumbing for the first one coming out of the tank. The second one you are going to have to install a new bulkhead fitting coming through the cover and new power and ground wires coming through the cover. Plumb the second pump up and out through the new bulkhead fitting. Use a Y to connect the two pump outputs and run that to an inline high flow fuel filter and then; 1. adapt that to the stock fuel line(might not be able to flow enough) 2. Run -an Teflon hose all the way to the fuel rail, 3. Replace the stock fuel line with larger hard line.

Completely remove the stock fuel filter, run your new line to your fuel rail, at the end of your fuel rail you will have your new fuel pressure regulator returning the fuel back to the main tank via the stock return line.

Depending on what ECU you use, you should be able to maintain the first pump on stock settings, so low voltage at idle, etc. and then trigger the second pump via an output on the ECU so that it only comes on say when you are 2-3psi. You want to keep the amount of fuel returned to the tank as low as possible. To reduce heat in the fuel. (Haltech now has new fuel pump triggers to read the fuel pressure regulator and adjust the pumps accordingly. It's what they call semi-returnless)

And then just have the 2nd tank fill the main tank so you don't have to deal with anything in the second tank.. I think this is how it operates now isn't it?

 

[White Stripe]

Now that you have your turbo setup fairly dialed in, what fuel mileage are you seeing tooling around town and what are you seeing on the interstate if you stay outta boost for the most part? Im sure if you heavy foot it you probably only see like 10mpg.

 

[scottryana]

I see about 10-11.5mpg around town and 15-15.5mpg on the hwy. the around town includes quite a lot of idling and a little hooliganing. The hwy mileage isn't changed from before I was boosted unless I push it up to 80+mph I think I said when I was driving across country and sitting right over 85mph in that vacuum/boost area, I was only getting like 12mpg hwy, and I was overwhelming my intercooler setup, since it wasn't enough boost to kick on the water/meth but it was just enough boost to heat up the air charge. In that situation a front mount air/air would be king, but I just don't do 80-85+mph for hours often enough and with my shortbus, winch and grill mounted lights I just don't have any space for an A/A.

Now that you have your turbo setup fairly dialed in, what fuel mileage are you seeing tooling around town and what are you seeing on the interstate if you stay outta boost for the most part? Im sure if you heavy foot it you probably only see like 10mpg.

 

[White Stripe]

Thanks. I was thinking of stepping up to the 80 for a bit more towing capacity. But I was hoping for a little better of numbers mileage wise. I'm sure awd sucks a bit from getting better numbers

 

[scottryana]

Yeah you will never increase mileage going from a NA motor to forced induction on that same motor. If people actually were really concerned about gas mileage and not power increases there could be some gas mileage increases to be had on the 1FZ if people installed standalone engine management. With the newer wideband O2 sensor tech there are a lot of places the stock 1FZ fuel map could be leaned out. But that is a lot of time, effort and money to gain a few mpg's with little to no power gain.

For example

-at idle a lot of new cars push past 14.7:1 and run leaner

-in open loop there is zero reason to run 10:1 that could easily be dialed back to 12-12.5:1

-on cold start the 1FZ runs open loop until the water coolant temp sensor comes up to temp, this could also be moderated

Like I said several places with modern engine control things could be done to save a few mpg's but back in the late 80's wideband O2's were not common and ECU's were not as advanced.

 

[White Stripe]

With the third gen 4runner, it's typical to see 1 or 2 mpg better fuel economy with the supercharger. So would my urd 7th injector kit for the 3.4 work on the fz? It intercepts the cam sensor and o2 and pulls a map signal on the 3.4 to dial back timing and inject fuel. It also forces open loop at whatever boost level i tell it. Did u ever look into that with yours? Problem with my 4runners towing capacity isn't quite enough for me.

 

[scottryana]

I did look into it. In fact if you go back in the forced induction threads for very cheap moderate control I recommend URD's 7th injector and O2 modulator. I don't think you have the full functionality of the 7th injector kit on the 1FZFE since you have stock narrow band O2 sensors so really you only know if you are in or out of stoich. That's why I recommended the O2 modulator. URD might be able to tell you more.

With the third gen 4runner, it's typical to see 1 or 2 mpg better fuel economy with the supercharger. So would my urd 7th injector kit for the 3.4 work on the fz? It intercepts the cam sensor and o2 and pulls a map signal on the 3.4 to dial back timing and inject fuel. It also forces open loop at whatever boost level i tell it. Did u ever look into that with yours? Problem with my 4runners towing capacity isn't quite enough for me.