Builds dougbert's future 350 swap: How much torque is too much? (1 Viewer)

[norsk]

Took the starter off this morning and tested it. Engagement worked just fine. SO I called the vendor/dealer in Tenn. (Skip White) and got tech support. I learned something.

I already knew I had a 168 tooth flywheel, and that there was a 153 tooth as well. I had installed the starter in the 153 tooth flywheel holes on the starter moving the starter too close to the block and what was happening was the small gear was just ramming the front of the flywheel.

Reinstalled in the outer bolt holes of the starter to allow it to mesh with the larger flywheel. I hooked the battery cable up and tested it by turning the key...........The motor turned and no bad sounds came from the starter.

Cranked for 30 some seconds and started to get back fires out the exhaust. Asked jake to come listen and he twisted the dizzy (advancing it) while I cranked. It began to run on its own but poorly - more advancing and it got better and then idled well on its own. Found some noise sources and turned off the engine. Tightened down the alternator as it was a source for a noise then looked for leaks. Driver's side exhaust donut seems to be leaking, need to loosen, adjust and tighten back up to get rid of that.

(Also need to set Idle timing with the light)

Then got the camera recording and started it again and took the video of it running.

So in conclusion: IT STARTED TODAY without breaking something

video is down below

dougbert

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Congrats!!! It's been a long time coming

 

[Jokenring]

Congrats! There is no sweeter sound than a motor running for the first time after you have had it completely disassembled and put back together.

 

[norsk]

Even though I am software geek, this is my first video up load to youtube. I am firmware and device driver type of guy.

Yeah, long time coming for me. 3 years this month since I torn down the donor engine and took the block to the machinist. 2 years since the 2F died and I started the renewal of the entire rig.

Congrats! There is no sweeter sound than a motor running for the first time after you have had it completely disassembled and put back together.

The only parts original from the donor are the block, crank, flywheel, connecting rods and carb. All others are new or near new. Well, the exhaust manifolds are 50 years old. Yet, still it is a sweet event on my first engine rebuild. I have to admit I was very surprised it started and ran so well. Checking things 2 and 3 times in all the assembly paid off.

dougbert

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Sounds awesome

 

[JohninFla]

Awesome!!!! Sounds tough I like it!!!

 

[norsk]

Good progress and some BAD status

First the good:

found the leak on the PS pump - it was the pivot bolt. I had tightened the slider bolt, but did not tighten the pivot bolts, which need to be tight in order to form a seal into the reservoir, hence previously it all leaked out. This time after get them snug, I filled the reservoir and started the engine and turned the wheels (lifted off the ground) and shortly I had good clear fluid filling the lines (out to the cooler as well).

Second, I think I found the exhaust leak, which where the rams horn manifold mates with the extension piece. The manifold is not flat and allows gases to pass. I brushed it down a bit, but then decided to get an exhaust gasket to put between them (muffler shop guy said I didn't need one - huh?) and will reinstall in a few days.

Now the bad news:

very noisy valve train. Pulled valve covers and discovered loose adjustment nuts, especially one on the passenger side. Tightened them up as the engine was running (Asked the former mechanic turned Corporate Jet pilot who gave me the block, to come over and help out a bit) and the major clunking sounds went away, but not totally.

Then I saw a problem on the passenger side: Number 8 cylinder both push rods were gushing oil, the 2, 4, and 6 were just a very small trickle.
And those 3 were nosier.

mmmmmm, I have an oil flow problem.

Now I installed the lifters months ago and adjusted them after soaking in oil for few days.
So, I am going to pull the intake and re-soak them again, do a static adjustment again, and see what's up.

How does one check lifters? Or even check good oil flow through the block.
Back after installing them, I used the drill and the oil primer tool that goes into the dizzy hole. I got oil from every one of the lifters, as I turned the crank 120 degrees at a time and ran the drill.

Ideas?

Last bad news was the radiator. I put more coolant in and then saw one of the tubes leaking badly on the fan side of the radiator. I could see the hole and it was covered in paint so it must have occurred while it was sitting for the past year. IDK.

SO will pull that and take to a rad shop and see if they can fix it and replace the plastic release cock with a metal one that won't spin and squirt coolant all over the place. Plus I don't trust the plastic when out in the field doing repair work.

I keep repeating: It will work, It will work, It will work ----- someday

thx for any help

dougbert

 

[Elbert]

GM shop manual describes the adjustment of the rocker arms, that can be done cold with engine not running or with the engine running...if running you need some of the keepers that you place on the rocker arms to keep oil from going everywhere. I don't recall off the top of my head but adjusting the rocker arms while engine is running goes something like this... start engine....run down nuts on rocker arms to stop the "excessive noise" then back the adjustment off one by one ... back off the adjustment nut until you hear the noise and then tighten the nut until the noise goes away and then another 1/2 turn. Check shop manual for correct process. Get some of the clips that go on the rocker arms I"m referring too or you will have a huge mess. Option 2 is adjust the valves cold without engine running but you have to turn the crank over multiple times in a precise manner to get the valve train positioned correctly.

It sounds as if your rocker arms/valve train is not setup correctly in part...you should not have loose rocker arms and you should be pumping oil on every "rocker arm".. Did you adjust lifters cold...it sounds like you need to go back and do them again "hot".

What did you do to get the engine started. regarding lifter adjustment?.. hydraulic lifters will bleed down over time....outside of the engine..you have to generally soak them in engine oil for a day or two before you setup the engine and work the lifter with a push rod.

Assume you are running new lifters..... The lifters will have to go through a short period of pumping up and so forth...before you can adjust...

 

[norsk]

This lifters are near-new. They were used for a Dyno-pulls and then resold. Got them for $290, while retail is $480

I did do the static or cold adjustment as per the book back when I installed them. Today I did a hot adjustment (used cardboard on the down side to keep the oil draining right and towels over the top of the lifter - worked great) as well.

I think the lifters drained (of course) since initial install, but the weird things was them NOT pumping up while running today. And too was the lack of oil on cyls 2,4, and 6 but LOTS on 8.

Need to research and ponder more.

thx for the input, did all that you suggested.

dougbert

UPDATE: Finally found instruction sheet for the lifter. (Since I bought them used, they didn't come with one and I failed to research more at CompCams website - which I just did)

Instructions for CompCams 853-16 Retro-roller lifter for Gen I SBC engines

http://www.compcams.com/Instructions/Files/COMP4-140.pdf

The instructions indicate that pre-soak is not needed but is a good idea to have oil on outside of it when installing.

Did find one instruction concerning "some" lifters that have an "UP Arrow" on the cross bar between the two lifters. THAT I know I did not verify upon installation. I did put the lifters in with the connecting rod toward the center of the engine. But didn't look for the ARROW.
I either need to call CompCams to verify that if the UP Arrow is present on this model (the instructions cover several models) OR put them out and check.

Also on setting the Pre-Load, that after zero lash is reach, tighten 1 FULL turn on these lifters. I had done 1/2 turn, which is less than the recommendation for these lifters.

the search goes on.

 

[JohninFla]

Doug

In my old school world of the SBC, it was tight plus 3/4 turn. No reference, just us old guys building engines in the late 1970s and through the 1980s found something that worked. And I about $H1T when I saw the lifter price! I remember buying cam and lifter sets brand new for ~$200, and thinking that was crazy high!

Also, in my "old guy" vault of knowledge between my ears, I never heard of a noisy valve killing an engine in the start up, so it's not something to lose sleep over. I like the idea of adjusting while running, I have done that, got oil all over the place, and ended up with quiet valves more times than I remember.

Keep after it, holler anytime!
John

 

[Elbert]

not knowing details but are you suppose to run guide-plates or those special rocker arms with these particular lifters?

I don't recall if you have a new camshaft or not...but I've always been of the opinion that you run new lifters with a new cam, and or you have a matched set...but in general you run a new set of lifters, you don't introduce lifters from another engine or otherwise mix and match camshafts / lifters from different engines...etc, that may less of a concern with roller lifters.

My comments above and in the post above relate to a stock drivetrain with stock OEM parts and stock OEM drivetrain geometry. If you have a combination of parts you will have to follow the direction provided from that OEM and ensure that have the correct push-rod length, the correct rocker arm and any related parts that may be considered correct for the entire assembly.

Some roller lifters have additional requirement if installed in an otherwise stock old school block, you may have no issues with that but its worth understanding what combination of parts are required.

 

[norsk]

not knowing details but are you suppose to run guide-plates or those special rocker arms with these particular lifters?

I don't recall if you have a new camshaft or not...but I've always been of the opinion that you run new lifters with a new cam, and or you have a matched set...but in general you run a new set of lifters, you don't introduce lifters from another engine or otherwise mix and match camshafts / lifters from different engines...etc, that may less of a concern with roller lifters.

My comments above and in the post above relate to a stock drivetrain with stock OEM parts and stock OEM drivetrain geometry. If you have a combination of parts you will have to follow the direction provided from that OEM and ensure that have the correct push-rod length, the correct rocker arm and any related parts that may be considered correct for the entire assembly.

Some roller lifters have additional requirement if installed in an otherwise stock old school block, you may have no issues with that but its worth understanding what combination of parts are required.

The majority of parts for the engine are NEW or NEAR NEW. New CAM and Near New Retro-Roller Lifters. My New rockers are self-aligning rollers and don't need guide plates. All are CompCams parts and were checked several times with their support techs for proper combinations with the project. Push rods were measured and are also new. These are all documented in the thread (might be in the table of contents)

dougbert

 

[norsk]

Spoke with Comp Cams tech support concerning the roller lifters I got, 853-16.
They do NOT have a requirement to be inserted a certain way with the UP ARROW pointing up. They do not have any arrows on the connection rods. So my lifters are good where they are. For now.

Dropped off my CSF 2708 radiator to be fixed and a new 1/4" NPT female thread soldered in for the drain and the radiator tested.
I don't trust the "plastic" drain fitting that came with it for off roading. I can just see snapping that off, 100 miles deep into Canyonlands, UTAH. Also, it makes a mess when opening that thing.
Total Cost : $75 or so.

Also dropped off my OEM radiator to be tested to see if it can be revitalized.
Diagnostic cost: $25

Best case: clean it out.
Worse case scenario is for them to pull the upper/lower tanks and side brackets and put in a new and more efficient core.
Estimated price of $425 for that - not too bad.

While waiting for the radiator to come back, will adjust valves and re-install driver's exhaust manifold with new gasket. My lifter instructions say to do 1 FULL turn after 0 lash,

Might be some good sunny days this week, but Saturday another storm is expected


Watched several youtube videos and read several references.

I liked the following ones (first one had music too loud and poor quality, but was good to watch - same author as 3rd video)

SBC on vids 1 and 2







quote from author of Video 1 and 3:

Published on Jun 10, 2014
Adjusting the hydraulic valves on a SBC/BBC is really pretty simple. Start out with the motor on TDC for #1 to fire and then you can adjust the following...

intake valves...1, 2, 5 & 7
exhaust valves...1, 3, 4 & 8

Rotate the engine by hand one full turn (360*) and stop on the mark for TDC again. Now you can adjust the remaining valves...

intake valves...3, 4, 6 & 8
exhaust valves...2, 5, 6 & 7

When you screw the nut down and you see the push rod start to go down...stop and take note of your wrench position...then make one full (360*) turn. Not 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of a turn, but all the way. This will work on any hydraulic lifter motor with a firing order of 1, 8, 4, 3, 6, 5, 7 & 2...there are no exceptions. As you can see here, I was not in a hurry and I had all the valves adjusted and locked down in about 15 minutes.
-endquote

dougbert

 

[Elbert]

what do you think the issue is with the lifter adjustment?...think something screwed up first time around? Generally on the SBC its set it and don't have to screw with it again. $hit happens sometimes...

 

[norsk]

Not yet sure on the prior lifter adjustment, unless I have an oil blockage.

Today, reinstalled the driver's Rams Horn manifold with a new pipe gasket which I hope stops that exhaust leak (was loud) and I will be able to hear the lifters better.

Also just picked up my 2 radiators:

OEM radiator, diagnostic as 50% or more plugged. No leaks and they soldered in a new 1/4" NPT female thread for a new metal drain cock. Estimate at $150 to dissemble and clean the tubes or $450 to put in a new "core".
Cost: $45

The CSF radiator aftermarket was fixed (had a leak) and new 1/4" NPT female thread installed also with a new metal drain cock.
Cost: $75

So will install the CSF on Saturday and other tasks to complete.

 

[norsk]

Re-installed radiator, put on new lower hose. Old hose had paint on inside (from white paint I painted pump with.
Used 1 2-wire clamp and 1 worm clamp on WP intake hose. Filled radiator and no leaks - at this time, will check on next visit

Adjusted valves to spec by CompCams for the 853-16 lifters.

Started engine and sounds much better. No exhaust leak on driver's side, but might be one on passenger's side. Will install exhaust gasket
on that side like I did on drivers.

Oil coming on pushrods on cylinders: 1, 3, 5, 7, and 8 while 2, 4 and 6 seem dry -mmmmmmm

Then started to snow heavily so buttoned every thing up. Next available day is next Wed.

Sad part is, is that the barn is empty today. If engine was running I could have moved into barn for the day and evening. SOOOO close

dougbert

UPDATE: After researching and pondering, I have come up with a plan of attack.

Like debugging software, first observe the problem then change JUST ONE thing and repeat, to see if the problem stays the same or changes.

Since #8 cylinder id flowing, I am going to swap #6 and #8 lifter sets and then run the priming tool with the drill. (This will involve taking off the intake manifold and pulling all the pushrods - oh well).

Once that is done, if #6 lifter (now in #8) flows and the old #8 does not, then the blockage is in the galley somewhere.

But if #6 lifter (now in #8 slot) does NOT flow and #8 (now in #6) does, it indicates #6 lifter is plugged itself. Repeat for #4 and #2 lifters to see if they are also plugged

If that is the case, clean all the lifters again and try again.

If the blockage appears to be in the galley....well another solution will come

dougbert again

 

[norsk]

Spent the afternoon taking the intake off to gain access to the lifters.
Removed all the pushrods on the passenger side and removed the lifters as well.

Very good oil flow into exhaust lifter of #8. Then after inserting lifters for #8, good flow into 6.
Inserted lifters for 6 and good flow, smaller than for 8, but flowing
Inserted lifters for 4 and same thing, flow
Inserted one lifter for 2 and flow once again, less than #8.

So cylinder 8 has high flow, 6, 4, and 2 have some oil but NOT like oil flow on driver's side. Seems driver's side has better and more even flow than passenger's side. Weird.

After reassembling, again good flow into 8, and flow (though less) into 6, 4, 2.

Used a pipe cleaning stick to ensure the oil galley is clear. No blockages along the entire length of the passenger lifter galley.

Verified each lifter is free of obstruction with compressed air. All push rods are fully clear.

So, oil galley is NOT block and lifters are NOT plugged.
Clear galley and clear lifters.

Vid of oil flow in #8 w/o lifters



Clipped a snippet of video and posted to youtube. #8 and #6 lifters on passenger side install, looking down #4 lifter for oil flow



dougbert

 

[norsk]

Been over a week since posting last, but I have been out to the truck just twice, today and once on 31st dec.

Why? Because it has been sub zero for most of that time. Today at 10am it was 19 Degrees F and reach around 25 F by 2PM. Warm enough to go "play".

We did clock -15 F (sub zero) a couple of mornings this past week. Wasn't going to go out in that. No sir. Gotten too old for that.

Did get the passenger exhaust gasket put in and bolted down on the 31st.

Today, reset at TDC #1 cylinder, marked the oil primer and the rotor aligned with the oil pump rod slot in order to set the dizzy right.
Started the engine and set timing at 11 Deg BTDC. MUCH Smoother.

Exhaust leak came back on driver's side. Can't determine where? Does Jegs sell a "Find Exhaust Leak" tool?

Still noisy lifters on passenger side, even after CompCams' instructions were followed to a "T". Driver's side seems okay.

GOOD: Warmed the engine to 170F (via my return hose sending unit and mechanical temp gauge).
GOOD: Got TLC oil pressure gauge just over 5/8 up the scale. Yeah
GOOD: Voltage gauge working fine. Yeah
BAD: No gas gauge reporting though. Will need to trace the circuit. Might have missed something when I put the tank back in.
BAD: No TLC temp gauge report. Old temp wire extended and connected to TLC sender

LOTS of oil smoke burning off manifolds and then........steam below WP..........good size leak coming from driver's side of WP. What?!

Also before starting, used a probe camera and looked at the draw intake on WP and it looks like a leak in the metal male part of the intake of the pump just above the hose line. This is a Stewarts WP, but I did get it off of Ebay for $75, $100 less than normal retail.

Will remove old WP on Wednesday. Monday and Tuesday are full.
Ordered another WP and will replace on Thurs (I hope, before bad news below)
- fighting one thing at a time here.

Back to the lifters - seems like a lot of tapping. Engine is "smooth" at idle (after adjusting the idle screw) but noisy. Going to talk to CompCams support on monday for opinions/options. I am thinking the lifters are not pumping up properly which could explain the noise and the flood of oil from #8 and low flow on 2, 4, 6. #8 might just be "taking" all the oil and starving the rest downstream. But the same symptoms on #8, when I put 2, 4, and 6 lifters into #8. Can all 4 sets be stuck open? While driver's side is good. What are the chances?

Couldn't adjust the carb mixture as I don't have the proper tool: need to fab a bolt with a slot as per Cliff Ruggles suggestion from his book "How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors", page 66.

now bad news for me: Next friday I am in for foot surgery to "lengthen my Achilles tendon" to reduce stress on my left "ring" toe bone, as it has worn a hole in the bottom of my foot for the past 6 months - yeah, I have had a open wound on my foot for that long. All as a result of a broken left upper little toe bone from 5 years ago (done while shoveling snow), which healed "too high" and shifted bearing weight to "ring" toe. mmmmmmmmmmm.

So, 2 weeks after surgery ABSOLUTELY NO pressure on the left foot and probably another 4-6 weeks of limping, which puts it well into March before I can back to the rig.

Hopefully, I get the WP by tuesday evening and R&R it on Wed/Thurs and get rid of that leak. Then let it all sit. Solar panel will keep the battery charged in the cold weather.

Someday, it will work.......right?

dougbert

 

[JohninFla]

Doug

Ouch! That sucks about your surgery, I wish you a speedy recovery.

My gas gauge came back to life after a couple of tanks with sea foam in them. Maybe your will too?

I think you knew you weren't out of the woods with the engine yet, there will be lots to do for a while. I spent yesterday chasing an oil leak, I think I need a breather can or something. Call it your hobby, the way some guys golf or go to the horse races. Or chase younger women. Or whatever it is that those guys in the nice suits do when they are not patting themselves on the back at work......

Hang in there, keep us posted!

John

 

[norsk]

After speaking with the machinist who did my short block and then speaking with Comp Cams tech support, I have decided to buy 4 more lifters, brand NEW. Since I bought my existing ones used, I have no recourse for getting a tech solution from CC on those. Therefore, by buying new ones and installing on the passenger side, I can see if the new ones work correctly. If they don't CC will work with me better.

The thought is, that the lifters are "stuck open" if you will and not correctly pumping up, but allowing oil to flow through the lifter and hence, #8 floods the oil and little goes down stream.

Tuition. Great stuff

dougbert