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dougbert's future 350 swap: How much torque is too much?

Discussion in '60-Series Wagons' started by norsk, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains

    This has turned into a whole vehicle build thread now and not just an engine swap. So I have logged work I have done on the rig, issues, solutions and links to other resources, as well as my parts costs, etc.

    LAST 6 years of uses: for DD, a couple trips to Canyonlands Utah, camping up in the mountains and the like.
    Hauling stuff and for the ride. Love a manual tranny

    FUTURE uses: Longer trips in the western US background, mostly Utah

    Since I am an old software geek (same age and Bill Gates, but much poorer) I have planned the project and then modified it over time as reality comes or new options come to light. So I might have too much detail, but this is my thread.


    I acquired the rig in May 2008 for $2500. 189,000 miles on it.
    I put 49,000 miles on it until the engine went out, Dec 2012 (seen later on this thread)

    After buying it, it Immediately needed:

    2F Specific mods/fixes (things that no longer apply since the 2F is now GONE):
    New clutch pressure plate, disc, throwout bear, etc
    New oil (old oil was very lumpy) and filter, changed again in 500 miles for flushing of bad oil
    New coolant (Moab Red did NOT seem right color for coolant) after a BIG flush
    (those last 2 items and others hints, indicated to me that PO's did NOT take care of the rig.
    I believe that is why the engine block later died at 238k miles)
    New coolant hoses throughout

    Body specific mods/fixes that outlast the 2F engine = they are still on the rig:

    rear pinon bearing broke, and replaced
    Had rear axle rebuilt with new bearings and seals (from Kurt at CruiserOutfitters.com)
    Front pinon bearing replace
    New OME shocks
    New steering stablizer

    Over the next several years I did or bought the following:

    2F Specific mods/fixes (things that no longer apply since the 2F is now GONE):

    New water pump.
    New thermostat and gaskets
    new vac lines
    Removed air pump and installed JimC's idler pulley
    JimC Dizzy rework a used 2nd dizzy I sent him.
    Bought a 2nd head, had it rebuilt with SS valves (as per JimC's counsel), oil galley, rocker arm serviced and swapped in on a saturday
    6-to-1 header
    New muffler
    Trollhole carb (bought a second for a spare)
    Radiator shroud 2 piece mod

    Body/frame specific mods/fixes that outlast the engine:

    New aftermarket radiator.
    OME EMU Lift
    Saginaw PS installed
    New Clutch MC and Slave
    Painted the top of the hood - it REALLY needed it, as it was peeling
    Refreshed the Herculiner that some PO put on the sides.
    Steering gear box reworked at Texas Steering
    New rebuilt brake booster
    New brake MC and flush
    New pads in front and brakes in rear
    200 Amp Mean Green Alternator
    Fixed driver footwell rust rot
    Cruiser C-r-a-p installed on floor, got quieter
    ARB Rear Air-Locker
    Install FJ62 4.11 third members, front and rear
    Cleaned up rear cargo area, rear seat, and new rear cargo carpet
    Fab'ed my new headlight harness (now have 14.4 volts at lights instead of 8.6v)
    Fog lights
    Off road lights on roof
    Improved electrical system, better wires, grounding, etc.
    Had front knuckles rebuilt, new bearings and seals
    Added to the A pillar, a 4 gauge strip. Physical Water temp gauge, Vac gauge, Fuel mixture. Future Oil pressure
    Installed HAM radio

    Bunch of other stuff which I forget what I did.

    As can be seen, I didn't know much about Cruisers back then because of how much repair I had to do it BUT.....

    I view that as ALL TUITION well spent for my education of LandCruisers

    Then I lost the 2F, I sold all the "good" rebuilt/new parts from that engine to help fund the SBC

    While it is down, I miss it terribly. BUT I am having fun rebuilding it. Not too fancy car looks,
    but to utilitarian function - I drive through A LOT of scrub oak, which scratched the old paint job something terrible, so I extended the old Herculiner from 1/3 the way up to all the way up to the windows. It protects so much better.

    I want a off road 4x4 truck that can take the work, and keep running for some time.


    12 April 2014

    Showing actual costs of parts received:

    Free: 1973 4-bolt main 350 block.

    Manufactured: 10 Aug 1973

    Reusing: block, crank, rods, carb and flywheel. Thats all that will be original.

    All other parts will be purchased new, with a few used.

    (Tools acquired not cost tracked - gotta have good tools, right)

    $1500: Machine costs. Went with a 350ci (5.7L) target with .060" over for a 360ci (5.9L) engine.

    Balanced throughout.

    Bore aligned with torque plate in place.

    $520 Head: GM Bowtie small runner vortecs http://www.jegs.com/i/GM Performance/809/25534421/10002/-1
    $515: GM Bowtie head, Free shipping http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/25534421/10002/-1?parentProductId=955896
    $316: 16 - Comp Cams 1617-1 Self-Aligning Ultra Pro Mangnum Roller Rockers http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1617-16/
    $305: Comp Cams roller cam lifters - (used for a Dyno Test)
    $277: MSD Chevy 8360 Ready-to-Run Dizzy ($50 off with coupon) http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...vy-v8-w-module-8360/17350185-P?zoneAssigned=1
    $275: Comp Cams 12-409-8 Extreme 4x4 Retro Hyd roller CAM
    $242: Comp Cams 310 3-piece Timing Cover, can adjust/change CAM without distubing oil pan. Also more solid for cam thrust button
    $200: Rebuild kit for QuadraJet carb
    $190: Harmonic balancer
    $155: Intake: Profession Products 52007- vortec intake $155 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e78f12d8c&vxp=mtr
    $140: 2 Proform MLS head gaskets http://www.ebay.com/itm/1142-Fel-Pr...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6d043276&vxp=mtr
    $128: Pushrods http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP Cams/249/7955-16/10002/-1
    $110: Block hugger headers 1.5" primaries to 2" collector
    $105: GM Clutch Disk 10 spline 383735, 11 inch disc, 1-1/8 inch dia shaft http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CISMS2/?tag=ihco-20
    $105: composite dizzy gear http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp Cams/249/12200/10002/-1?CAPCID=32103742751&cadevice=c&gclid=CIXl_cK9mLsCFYUWMgodf3cAmA&CA_6C15C=230006180000140600
    $99: Air intake plenum for carb http://www.spectreperformance.com/search/product.aspx?prod=9849
    $99: Valve Covers http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-Chevy-3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d07eba504&vxp=mtr
    $88: 3HP Starter http://www.ebay.com/itm/350783930097
    $85: Chevy Bellhousing 460486 cast number, ebay
    $80: TC linkage bushings and misc parts. Old is VERY loose and bushings are missing, AND Shipping from SOR. Very tight now.
    $79: ARP Head bolts http://www.allensfasteners.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=ARP-134-3703
    $75: rear tranny mount - the old one is almost 30 years old #EGM61030R http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/engineparts.html
    $75: Stewart Stage 2 23113 Water Pump http://www.ebay.com/itm/161004997170?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
    $65: Chevy 7 bladed fan and fan clutch from ebay USED
    $55: Fel Pro valve cover gaskets 1628 http://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1628/10002/-1
    $54: or Spark plug boot sleeve heat protector http://www.wirecare.com/products.asp?prodline=spb
    $45: ATP Part # ZA104 More Info {#3765372} Category: Clutch Fork http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=65852
    (Alternate: Fork #15687296 1960-1972 Apache Custom Blazer http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/716176--gm-cast-iron-release-arm/ $70)
    $42: PS Bracket http://www.ebay.com/itm/350858424396
    $42: Vortec Intake Manifold gaskets - I should have just gotten http://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1255/10002/-1 instead of the kit below of which I only used the intake, and can't use the other gaskets as they are for the Vortec engine
    (I bought the wrong kit - MS98000T and on valve cover gasket http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CH0C0Y/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    $42: Clutch release bearing http://www.advanceadapters.com/prod...sing-stock-land-cruiser-4-speed-transmission/
    $40.50: I use the gaskets that came with the headers instead of these Exhaust gaskets whirch are the D Shape and it did't look right - Vortec Fel-Pro 1470 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TPHNEE/?tag=ihco-20
    $40: MSD Blaster 2 coil 8202 Free shipping http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8202/overview/
    $40: slave cylinder bracket http://www.advanceadapters.com/prod...nder-bracket-for-use-with-chevy-bellhousings/
    $36: New Tach to replace OEM http://www.jegs.com/i/Sunpro/885/CP7906/10002/-1 install http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/292794-new-tach-v8.html#post4585224
    $35: ALT Bracket http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-CHEVY-A...Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d138b10c7&vxp=mtr
    $31: Flywheel cover http://www.classicparts.com/73-84-B...nual-Trans/productinfo/90-918/#.UnF2eawnZfV24
    $28: Carter M6626 Fuel Pump - 3 line: draw, to carb and return
    $25: Pilot Bushing http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/716170--pilot-bearing-590-idx-1090-od
    $25: Throttle cable
    $23: (found out 2 not needed) 3 Heater hose nipples to fit into intake manifold
    $18: 90 degree hose nipples to route around back of dizzy to heater

    $20: Comp Cams 7702-1 Pushrod length checker
    $20: Clutch fork Boot http://www.classicparts.com/1985-91-Clutch-Fork-Boot/productinfo/90-527/#.UyzKJttBrOp
    $20:8 AC Delco R44LTS Spark plugs
    $19: Steward 180 degree hi-flow thermostat
    $18: (not needed-went mechanical) 2 FAN connectors, $7 each http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/Ford_Wire_Harness_Connector_Radiator_Cooling_p/a20852.htm
    $15: water neck/thermostate housing
    $15: New rubber fuel lines
    $15: Spectre 4" Coupler http://www.jegs.com/i/Spectre/865/9772/10002/-1
    $14: Chrome Fuel pump plate and bolts
    $14: Block-Bell housing bolts http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-1992-5...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5655db5ae7&vxp=mtr
    $13: Comp Cams 4607 Bronze Fuel pump pushrod
    $12: Comp Cams Roller Button
    $10: One valve cover gasket Fel-pro VS50293R http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C2GIGQ/?tag=ihco-20
    $5: ARP 234-1001 ARP Cam Bolts
    $3: Release bearing collar from TLC release bearing (2)

    Total $6650

    Misc items needed to start engine:

    $83: Wires MSD http://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...ne-size/5-7l-350/model/c20/submodel/silverado
    $76: spectre 9831 Inline airbox with filter http://www.jegs.com/i/Spectre/865/9831/10002/-1
    $??: Belts
    $??: Coolant hoses, upper/lower, heater.


    To Buy:

    $231: Centerforce II Pressure Plate 11 inch CFT165552 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CIQP72/?tag=ihco-20


    $1384: Ranger Overdrive http://www.summitracing.com/parts/add-760024m-27/overview/

    Use of the Ranger saves over $1500 from other options
    ---$1000 in adapters
    ---$500 in modifying drive lines


    $235: Rebuild kit for Transfer Case - rebuild it myself http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/engineparts.html
    $0: Reuse my 4 speed tranny until it gives problems, then put in a H55 5 speed ($2100)

    This option puts the shifters in the SAME place as before
    Don't need to fab rear tranny mount - yeah
    Don't need to rebuild drive lines - yeah


    $1400: Rear bumper and swing outs for tire, gas cans and hi-jack
    $1200+: 190 liter/50 gallon fuel tank http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/index.php?id=25
    $950: ARB Front bummer
    $600: Sliders
    $300: GPS Speedometer http://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GR4-GPS-16T/1/GPS-Speedometer-Gauge-100mph--(w--turn-signal-and-high-beam)
    $295: New QUAD Gauge display with sensors http://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GR4-QUAD-01/1/Quad-Gauge---Oil-psi,-Water-Temp,-Fuel-Level,-Volts
    $200: MSD 6AL #6425 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=msd 6425&_sacat=0&_from=R40
    $175: U bolt flip-kits http://www.4plusproducts.com/fj60uboltflipkits.html
    $78: Titanium Exhaust Pipe Wrap http://www.ebay.com/itm/TITANIUM-EX...r_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecf10318c
    $34: SPARE HRP Inline Air Filter http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/KeywordSearchCmd?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&Ntk=all&Jnar=0&itemPerPage=90&Ne=1 2 3 13 1147708&searchTerm=HPR9831


    $150: New front discs
    $49: New rear drum http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BBR0/9379DGS/01269.oap?year=1986&make=Toyota&model=Land Cruiser&vi=1276556&ck=Search_brake_C0062_1276556_3664&keyword=brake&pt=C0062&ppt=C0009
    $49: New rear drum http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BBR0/9379DGS/01269.oap?year=1986&make=Toyota&model=Land+Cruiser&vi=1276556&ck=Search_brake_C0062_1276556_3664&keyword=brake&pt=C0062&ppt=C0009
    $47: New Right caliper 1993 4Runner and some fab work
    $47: New Left caliper 1993 4Runner and some fab work
    $26: Right rear self adjuster kit http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/WAG0/H2754/01312.oap?year=1986&make=Toyota&model=Land Cruiser&vi=1276556&ck=Search_brake_01312_1276556_3664&keyword=brake&pt=01312&ppt=C0064
    $26: Left rear self adjust kit http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/WAG0/H2755/01312.oap?year=1986&make=Toyota&model=Land Cruiser&vi=1276556&ck=Search_brake_01312_1276556_3664&keyword=brake&pt=01312&ppt=C0064
    $14: New rear brake wheel cylinder
    $16: Rear brake kit http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Drum Brake Hardware Kit/01271/C0064.oap?keyword=brake&year=1986&make=Toyota&model=Land+Cruiser&vi=1276556

    Purchased already:

    $14: New rear brake wheel cylinder
    $66: 2 @ $24 each + $22 SH, New front flexible stainless steel brake lines

    Total: $80

    FRONT AXLE Re-seal (bearing installed a couple of years ago)

    $60: New front axle seals, gaskets, etc from Cruiser Outfitters.com


    $48: Hella Horns http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002MA03S/?tag=ihco-20


    $44: 2.5 inch primary/3 inch outlet - Y-Pipe Flowmaster Y250300 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NRXA2O/?tag=ihco-20
    $48: 3 inch High Flow THUNDERBOLT 3 Catalytic converter http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Thunderbolt-Catalytic-Converter-High-Flow-Stainless-Steel-/140941752250
    $103:: Flowmaster 50 Muffler 943052 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flowmaster-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20d72bd376&vxp=mtr

    Plus connecting exhaust pipes


    Major engine components by price:

    $1500 for the block machine work
    $1200 for CAM system and lifters
    $1030 for heads
    $450 for ignition

    I expected the block cost, but the CAM and heads surprised me at how much of the total project they were. And then for a good ignition system
    lots of little things there after
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014 at 3:48 PM
  2. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains

    Various Spark Plugs For Vortec Heads:

    5613611 R44LTS, set of 8
    5614210 MR43LTS, set of 8
    25164641 #3, Rapid Fire style, set of 8
    P526S Accel U-Groove “SHORTY” Double Platinum Header Plugs approximately 3/16" shorter then R44LTS plugs, set of 8
    RS12YC Champion
    Autolite 104 or 26
    ACCEL 516
    Bosch HR10B or HR10BX, HR9DC


    Fan thread:

    Bought used chevy 7 bladed fan with clutch off eby for $65
    Mechanical Fan

    $113: fan clutch http://nostalgicac.com/gm-fan-clutch.html
    $90: Seven bladed fan #790-2030 http://nostalgicac.com/gm-fan-blade-18-inch-steel.html


    $114: Electric fan controller http://www.dakotadigital.com/index....ategory_id=-1/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd852.htm See Better price on EBAY
    $17: Pelican case for FAN Controller http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OF5TII/?tag=ihco-20

    $101: Contour FAN http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C17G9K/?tag=ihco-20
    (FAN Install threads: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=8452808&postcount=103


    $0: Currently own Lincoln Mark VIII 19" dual speed electric fan, just need to make mount/shroud for it

    Rim http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS Performance Products/555/671134/10002/-1


    28 Feb 2014

    Needed a place to put links to various solutions to common problems in restoring a LC. So In this section of this first post
    I am putting links as I find them to problems I encounter OR will encounter as the project proceeds. That way I KNOW where the links are instead of doing searches, and others can find the same solutions if they encounter them

    Weatherpack connectors http://www.ebay.com/itm/Weather-Pac...pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item35c7478e93&vxp=mtr

    Rusty cowl in front of wind shield http://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=3269316&postcount=350
    An example of what was done

    Fuel tank and part numbers for misc around it http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/469582-landcruiser-fuel-tank-recall-replacement.html

    Info on a FI Vortec install on EVAP system
    won't apply to my carb, but good info

    Other good rebuild threads found or pointed to:


    Interior threads

    ABS Panels for doors/rear: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/268898-rear-side-panels-gear-storage.html

    window/regulator removal: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/687247-door-panel-removal.html#post8260319

    H55 5 speed thread: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/600279-some-h55f-split-case-tech.html

    Half doors - cool http://forum.ih8mud.com/tn-stlca/382258-60-series-half-door-build.html

    Removable hinges:

    portable air compressor: http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/puma-12v-compressor.166969/

    windshield install

    kevinmrowland said:
    I ask since I've done a half dozen or so of them with that strip, and it's a pain, but as long as it's slick it slips into place.
    The tightness is a plus in my book, it is after all the expander strip and in that case tighter is better. I've always found much worse rust under the aftermarket window gaskets that do not have the slot for the expander strips as compared to the OE style expanded ones.

    He mentioned exactly that issue, but said it was because of improper installation, not because there's anything different with the aftermarket seal. If fact, if someone is going to try a home-installation, it's the only way to go. I held them side by side (sorry, no pic) and in fact the Precision gasket looked beefier. Had I not already bought the Toyota gasket, I would have gone aftermarket.

    Dirk said the step most places leave out (and it's in the FSM procedure) and always left out by the installer-comes-to-you guys because of the time it takes, is the final Urethane sealant step between the glass and gasket lip, not just the application between the gasket and window frame. It did take a bit of time for that final step and subsequent clean up, but he said it was absolutely necessary for a leak-free install. He also showed me it had not been done on the window he just removed from my rig... Thus the rust, and fu#!*ng water on the driver's floor boards I used to get. :crybaby:

    MUD member and FJ60 owner, and one-time in the auto-glass business "Tinker " mentions the same thing over and over in the various other windshield threads he's posted. In my first post, here, I link to another thread where Tinker affirms this.

    Did I mention I love my new windshield? The world is open, again :p

    Did anyone say I need new paint ??

    With a need to cover all the things that need to be done to complete this rig, I decided to put the tasks I know about now, down on this page to provide me a "honey do this" list (Honey being the rig).

    DONE: 22 March 2014 - Cut and remove inner C channel on left rear frame, and paint
    DONE: Install new engine head
    DONE: Install rockers and set rocker preload
    DONE: Install manifold
    DONE: Install valve covers
    DONE: 22 march 2014 - Clean and paint drive lines
    DONE: 29 march 2014 - de-rust, clean, prime and paint the front axle
    DONE: 29 march 2014 - de-rust, clean, prime and paint the steer cross arms
    DONE: 29 march 2014 - clean and paint the gas tank straps
    DONE: 29 march 2014 - Remove windshield
    DONE: 29 march 2014 Paint firewall
    DONE: 12 april 2014 - put in a better ground system in the rear underbody and encase wires in a loom
    DONE: 12 april 2014 - Re-install all 4 shocks
    DONE: 12 april 2014 - Re-install front sway bar

    Fab fuel line between pump and carb win -6 AN fittings and fuel pressure gauge
    Re-install the heat shield above the exhust system area
    drill out broken bolts on the frame, especially the ones for the tranny cross mount bar
    chase all the threads on the frame, for rust and paint residue
    Renew right rear brake: New drum, cylinder, sprints, etc, etc
    Renew left rear brake: New drum, cylinder, sprints, etc, etc
    fasten the air locker air supply line to the fuel line side rail
    fasten the rear diff air vent to the fuel line side rail and run to a filter in the engine compartment
    fab and fasten TC and tranny air vents

    fab breather line to TC and tranny as well

    Renew right front brakes: New rotor, caliper, maybe pads, pins, new hose, etc
    Renew left front brakes: New rotor, caliper, maybe paids, pins, new hose
    Replace tire lug bolts on the left front due to broken lug
    Replace tire lug bolts on the right front, because

    Re-install gas tank and hook up all fuel hoses, evap hoses, etc
    Install rear fuel fill hose protector shield

    renew 3 remaining doors like the right front door already done
    cut access hole in tail gate
    finish painting tail gate inside and out and tail hatch
    Install renewed tail hatch by moving all parts to the new one
    Move engine from engine stand connected from rear to leg based stand
    Install flywheel
    Install starter
    Chase rust under cowl
    Paint under cowling with Zero Rust as primer, Rust Bullet Shell Black as covering

    Buy clutch components, then install on engine
    Buy Ranger Splitter - get correct measurements
    Buy TC rebuilt kit
    Rebuild TC
    Connect Ranger to tranny and TC

    Move engine to barn
    Connect Engine to Ranger, tranny and TC
    Install power train into rig and have front engine mounts fab'd
    get front end (fenders) re-assembled
    Fab exhaust system

    Fix rust HOLES in roof
    Fix rust on cowl
    Eastwood Internal Frame paint onto other roof areas, Zero Rust coating
    Clean inside of roof
    remove rest of head liner
    Rear quarter panels fixes, cut for rear bumper
    Sound proof inside roof
    Thermo-protect inside roof
    paint Monstaliner inside roof

    Rear Bumper fab with 2" receiver
    Front Bumper buy ARB
    Winch on front bumper

    **************************************** Original post *************************

    Ok, it is time to ask some questions on a 350 swap for my fj60.

    I have been researching building my own engine from a donor block for some time. I have wanted to do this since I was a teenager, and I am NOT getting younger. So I have been: Reading, asking and calculating.

    I am starting with a 1983 chev truck 4-bolt main block, of which I will reuse the block and the Quadrajet carb (which I am rebuilding). Everything else will be bought new. My first choice is a 383 with 4.040 bore (block is already at 4.030). Then my second choice is just the 350 at 4.040 bore.

    My goal is to build a torquer with good low to mid torgue and low RPM target. I don't want to run the rig above 85 (lol). I have also purchased the Dyno Sim5 computer program to compare different configurations. This will go into my FJ60 with a NV4500 tranny, NP241 TC and a 14 bolt rear diff, all like lehiguy's rig.

    I am choosing the following parts:

    new version of GM Bowtie Vortec heads, small runners
    Edelbrock Vortec spread bore intake
    roller cam CompCams x4270HR (220/224 @.050) 111LSA .474 lift

    The Sim5 gives the following - one for the 383 and one for the 350 - numbers:

    TQ 493 @ 2500 sea level (403 @ 2500 5500ft)
    HP 383 @ 5000 sea level (313 @ 5000 5500ft)

    TQ 522 @ 2000 sea level (426 @ 2000 5500 ft)
    HP 373 @ 4500 sea level (304 @ 4500 5500 ft)

    Given these are just sims, they do provide relative comparisons.

    So my question becomes: How much torque is too much for a FJ60?

    Pics below is the dirty block in the back of the 60 on the way to the machinist. My plan is to have it worked over the next 4-5 months (Scott at Provo Utah's Charlies, will work on it in idle time and I will pay over that duration).

    UPDATE: It took 12 months

    thought to at least post a pic of the rig itself. The hood is the first part to be cleaned up and painted. Other portions will be painted - rear hatch is in process.

    last pic is the donor motor before I tore it down

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  3. orangefj45

    orangefj45 GOLD Star

    it's not HP or torque we're super concerned with, it's "shock" or "impact" loads. if the wheels ( front or rear ) loose traction and then hook up again, you can and will break stuff. like drivelines, u-joints, pinions, axle shafts,......but even that's not so common.
    the components in your cruiser can put up with the powerplant you plan on running them with just fine. it's not like you'll be floored at all times, and i doubt you'll be seeing more than 3k RPMs a whole lot.

    fwiw, i built a 60 with a supercharged vortec 5.3 for a customer and fellow mudder. it's been on the road ( and offraod ) for a while now with no issues.

    let your brain make the decisions, not your right foot.

  4. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains

    Exactly, I wasn't trying to reach high numbers. I just studied and put together components that leaned toward low end torque instead of high end HP (high end HP is what all the books stress on building up a SBC, mag articles as well). After I had my build plan laid out, that is when I bought the software sim to plug in things and see what came out (also I found that every person I asked had different opinions on things and had no "normalized" foundation to start with).

    Then I put the numbers in the Sim and I saw bigger numbers than I expected with TQ. That lead to posting this question due to the "breakage" factor as you mentioned. I started with the 383 and then seeing its numbers, worked up the 350 with good, but lower numbers to possibly reduce those "shocks".

    With my 2F now, when I drive 65, my RPMs are 3000 and my speedo is spot on, with 4.11 gears and 31x10.50 tires. I will be going to 33x12.50 and the 5th overdrive of the NV4500, which will bring down the RPMs on the road. And as you indicate, low RPMs when off road.

    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  5. Elbert

    Elbert SILVER Star

    AL, USA
    I would go for the most torque you can make and run on regular pump gas, and that would get you to the 383 setup I'm sure. High torque at low rpm is the best route for trucks/offroad in my view. I don't think there are that many intake solutions with using the vortec heads and I assume the intake you are referring to is a dual plane type. The vortec heads have a different bolt pattern where the intake bolts down to the cylinder heads than the older conventional 5.7 heads. The Dart II iron eagle heads are a good alternative if you were considering other options.
  6. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains
    That has been my base thought, which why I studied the 383 type of engine. As for the intake, it is an Edelbrock Performer for spreadbore

    The cheaper base unit is at http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/2116/10002/-1

    The more shiny one is at Edelbrock 21161 Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifolds for Chevy

    The original Vortec heads are a great head set and I have studied their characteristics. GMPP has come out an after market Vortec head that addresses some of the short coming of the original, thicker deck, improved exhaust, takes upto .530 valve lift, better springs. For an iron head, the GM engineers has done a great job. One can get an original Vortec head from www.sdparts.com for around $400 that has good valve lift, but these new GM heads can be had for $520 vis Jegs.

    Thanks for pointers

    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  7. ntsqd

    ntsqd technerd

    Upper So. CA
    What is your current cruising RPM? Shoot for getting your peak torque at that RPM as that will offer the best mileage. Not sure if the book goes into Brake Specific Fuel Consumption or not, but BSFC quantifies (fuel consumed per HP) and this always happens at peak torque. By running at, or just slightly under, peak torque you're operating at max efficiency for that engine combo.

    Have you considered the GMPP replacement aluminum Corvette heads? Those will let you run a bit more comp ratio while keeping to a small, high velocity intake port.
  8. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains

    At 65 MPH I am doing 3000 RPM at the moment.

    With the future overdrive, which I remember is around a .8 over factor, would put it around 2400 RPM plus going to a 33 size tire on 4.11 gears, I say 2200 to 2600 RPM target range, which matches with the above TQ numbers

    as to the Corvette Alum heads, I think you are referring to the Fast Burn: below is what I found on a personal sale (they are more expensive for sure from retail);

    Default FS-GMPP Aluminum Vortec Fast Burn Heads, Cam, Lifters, Rockers, more... BRAND NEW
    I have the following absolutely BRAND NEW GM Performance Parts from a NEW ZZ383..

    Heads- GM part #12464298 (this number superseded #12367712, which is stamped on the heads) Fast Burn Vortec aluminum.
    210cc Intake Ports
    62cc Combustion Chambers
    2.000'' Int/1.550'' Exh Valves
    -This head is a bolt-on 30 hp increase when used on GM's ZZ4 crate engine (according to GMPP)
    -Sells for $650 EACH new

    + Shipping

    [he lists other parts he is selling]

    at his price, they would match the same price as the Iron GM vortecs I am looking at.

    Here is a jegs listing for them at retail:

    They are a big port runner at 210cc, which more for HP and not Torque


    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  9. Elbert

    Elbert SILVER Star

    AL, USA

    are you sure that intake you linked to bolts down to a 5.7 vortec cylinder head? Are you aware of the differences between the vortec heads (like are stock on a 1999-97 GM truck) vs. the older school 5.7 cylinder heads? i'm referring to the bolt pattern and number of bolts used to mate the intake manifold with the cylinder head.

    At one time the only 4 barrel intake for the 5.7 vortec head was one offered by GM / GMPP.

    make sure you understand the differences before jumping off into that. I think the 5.7 vortec heads are good for a mild engine which is what you would want in the off-road torque business but as I noted the intake selection for 4 barrel carb use was and maybe still is limited. There are some people who drill the intake manifolds...i'm not one of them.

    notice the number of bolts used to fasten the intake to the cylinder head.

  10. Kurtis


    750 lbs of torque or more is to much. Anything less that that is good.
  11. RAMZ


    Bakersfield CA.
    This is good imfo. :cool: keep it coming.

  12. Bret


    On a 383 with small Dart heads I get a little over 400 ft/lbs by the time I hit 2k rpm, it peaks at around 330hp and 450 ft/lb but runs out of air by the time you hit 5k. That is enough to grenade pinions, driveshafts, hubs etc. All with some shock loading as someone mentioned earlier.

    That is enough to easily pass trucks on the interstate with authority and pull most any pass fast enough to get arrested. Makes chugging along at idle easy as well. Welcome to the dark side!

    sorry, this is in a 40, should apply to 60 too.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  13. Elbert

    Elbert SILVER Star

    AL, USA
    GM Performance 12366573 - GM Performance Vortec Dual Plane Intake Manifolds - Overview - SummitRacing.com

    I would have bought the above intake if I had gone with a carb for fuel on a 5.7 Vortec.. THere may be other manifolds out now (5.7 vortec + carb)...but this was one choice for a while or may be one of the few choices today. I've not looked at the choices for some time, since I jumped into fuel injection.

    I doubt the issue will be too much torque from a small block.... in fact I would not go crazy chasing that dream on a stock type truck. Remember why folks run fuel injection....for offroad the truck never runs out of fuel due to engine angle and too...you make some good power and reasonable fuel milage. With a carb you certainly can go crazy with modifications.... but I would not...a lot better to have a quasi stock setup thats dependable and less prone to maintence issues.
  14. Edelbrock makes a very nice dual plane manifold specific to Vortec heads. I have been using one for the past ten years. It currently sports a home made (ok, red neck) TBI adapter plate and big block throttle body.

    Norsk, I think you may find more usuable torque and certainly better economy with a cam that has no more than 212 degrees at .050" The larger cams make more torque, but not really the type of power you can hook up the a 5000# trailer and be happy. They're great for hot rods, but not always for trucks. The overlap is very effective for cylinder charging at low RPM, but you pay a penalty with mileage and heavily loaded operation. The overlap is not good for use with FI, which as I recall, you plan on doing sooner or later. The unburned fuel that makes it out the pipes due to the overlap tells the FI to go leaner which is really doesn't need to do in that case. Go with a roller cam and go with some good lift, moderate duration. Just my random thoughts...
  15. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains
    The link I gave was for the "shiny" version, the standard version is at Edelbrock 2116 Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifolds for Chevy

    and yes it is a Vortec manifold with 4 bolts each side, and am aware of the differences, and it is a spreadbore. I found it after multiple searches.

  16. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains
    that gives me a limit, which I don't want to approach. Once over 500 hp, the entire bottom end would need an expensive upgrade from what I have spec'd out. Instead of a cast crank, I would need a forged one and those add another $600, plus better rods, pistons, etc.

  17. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains
    my range I am figuring is idle to 5500 RPM, the Sim charts indicate TQ and HP drop rapidly after 6000.

  18. ntsqd

    ntsqd technerd

    Upper So. CA
    Those are not the heads, and it looks like the heads I had in mind have been dropped. Not finding them on the GMPerfParts page. What I had found is a aluminum replacement head for some year Corvette that had a 165cc intake port. With that small intake port volume they would've worked really nicely on a low rpm 350.

  19. norsk

    norsk SILVER Star

    5535.34 Feet in Utah Mountains
    good info.

    The Edelbrock is also a Dual Plane, a Vortec and a Spreadbore. Designed for idle to 5500 RPM range.

    That link is a square bore and I am wanting to do a good rebuilt QuadraJet. Have been researching that and found a great site at Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets :: Qjet Carburetor Rebuild Kits, Parts, Quadrajet Rebuilding, Quadrajet Parts, Bushing Kits, Carb Tuning

    I bought his book via Amazon which he wrote back in 2006. He has been building engines for 40 years. Owns a 1973 Pontiac Ventura, which has 650 HP 600 Ft-lbs and runs on his own tuned Q-Jet. It is his Daily Driver AND his racing vehicle. Fairly good mileage if he stays out of the secondaries due to his tuning. I have found that the Q-Jet is a great carb, BUT must tuned for the application in order to idle, off idle and WOT work right. I have learn ALOT about carbs from this book, talking with him and actually doing my rebuild with his HP-kit. One thing the Q-Jet does well is on off-road vehicles on angles, due to the design of the float, bowl, etc.

    I want to do the Carb thing at first and play with it.
  20. Elbert

    Elbert SILVER Star

    AL, USA
    yes I'm told the q-jet is the one to have if running carb off-road on GM-V8...I would do the same.

    Q-Jets are great carbs....espically for anything that's semi-mild build, I think they are the best for many mild street and off road applications...only when you really get into the hard-core hot rod or race stuff does a Holley really come into play. Getting hard to find local people who know how to work on those things now-days that everything is fuel injections. Q-jets are not hard to work on either.

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