Builds dougbert's future 350 swap: How much torque is too much? (1 Viewer)

[Output Shaft]

As much as this immense project might at times create headaches. You will miss the stimulation and mental challenges it presented when you are all finished up and there is nothing left to do.
It's all about the journey.... not the destination.... Like life.
A perfectly running, all nice & shiny, faultless cruiser is boring.

 

[norsk]

As much as this immense project might at times create headaches. You will miss the stimulation and mental challenges it presented when you are all finished up and there is nothing left to do.
It's all about the journey.... not the destination.... Like life.
A perfectly running, all nice & shiny, faultless cruiser is boring.

I do have a deadline (or two).

1) Family Reunion in August, up at Wallowa Lake in NE Oregon and Hells canyon

2) My wife's car (1995 pathfinder) is dying and this will be hers (at least for awhile and I find her a FJ80). She loves the big windows of the 60 and driving it so high.

thx BTW

dougbert

 

[norsk]

When debugging software one of the principles I attempt to apply is that of the "wrong assumption". Setting those assumptions usually are implicit and must be reviewed explicitly during the debugging session.

What that has to do with my rig, are the assumptions I made on the water pump. I removed it this morning and it was a brand new water pump (well I bought in may 2013 and just started using it recently) and I ASSUMED it was "good" to go.

It was not. Upon examining it, looking for the leak spots I found the following issues:

I found it had 2 leaks on it.

The first one, was my fault. I failed to put RTV on the WP bolts, as they go into the water jacket. Found that coolant was seeping through the threads. So okay, will fix that when I re-install the WP.

Second leak is a flaw in the WP intake pipe. The area without paint near the hose, is where the leak was occurring - coming out between the hose and the pipe.

It has a FLAT SPOT on a round pipe. Located near the engine side so was very difficult to see, until I took the WP off.

Here is looking down onto the flat spot - you can see the grind marks on it.

Here is looking at the flat spot from the lip of the intake. 9 o'clock position in the picture:

Very easy to feel the flat spot when rubbing one's finger on it.

Such a flat spot does NOT seal very well with a round worm clamp nor a round 2 wire clamp. Even the lip bump has a flat spot on it. So coolant just leaked through the space between the flat spot and the hose with a clamp. Drip, drip, drip...........

At least that assumption has been corrected for the better. Will examine the new incoming WP for similar issue.

Knowing reality really helps to feel somewhat better.

Might attempt someday to grind down the edges of the flat spot, but not now. New WP incoming this week.

dougbert

 

[norsk]

surgery went well, now on crutches and wheelchair

got the WP and it looks great:

And got a new roller lifter which seems to be CompCams new design, notice the 1/2 collar:

vs the old one w/o collar

ComCams say operationally, they are the same.

okay, not much to present, but soon......

dougbert

 

[norsk]

I have been getting very bored and tired with this laid up leg

1 week and 4 days done..........2 weeks and 3 days to go, then a walking boot.

Working from home sometimes, going into work in a car and using a wheelchair there (crutches get tiring) and playing some video games....

SOOOO, I was wondering what I could do for the rig while here at the keyboard that did not require much moving around.

AhHA! the carburetor!!!

I have a so called rebuilt one I bought off of ebay back in the day, that is currently on the engine out there in the field. It is the one that started the engine and seems so far to be okay. No carb number on it (might be a Service Replacement unit). But from day one when I first got the SBC from my friend, I researched what I could do in cleaning up, fixing and improving that old Quadrajet from 1985. Hey, it came free with the free block. I didn't know the different models of QJs, but was game to learn. I had adjusted my own QJs when I owned some chevys but never rebuilt one. So I thought it cool to learn about these "devils" as some call it, and others call "wonderful" carbs.

In my research I found out about a guy back in Ohio, named Cliff Ruggles, who has been rebuilding QJs for some time and have been very successful and the GOTO guy on QJs. He offers several levels of service:

1) He rebuilds your carb, to fit your engine/vehicle/configuration. About $450+ AND 12 months waiting queue. Yeah 1 full year. Back when I first contacted him, it was 6 months. Seems people have him do their QJs and are well pleased with his work. Since there is such a long queue, there just might be wisdom is taking his advice

2) Throttle plate rebuilding with brass bushings and other tune ups of the plate.

3) color plating parts

4) 2 levels of rebuild kits - some of the parts he has had built just for him - can't get them anywhere else. He insists that the customer first start with a GREAT set of parts. He asserts QJs bad reputation comes from bad parts and bad skill sets on working on these QJs

5) He own book from 2008 on how to rebuild and modify for High Performance your QJ.

6) Parts.

7) Web FORUM for discussion. I actually just posted my measurements on my carb on one of the forums and had a couple of items out of wack. He answered my questions and gave pointers within 8 hours. (http://cliffshighperformance.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2064.msg9878#msg9878)

His web site is http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/index.html

His book:

My goal is to gain knowledge and skill set on rebuilding and improving QJs for my own use. Maybe even helping others. I am using Cliff's web page, his book and he himself as my mentor, buying his services and products for his payment for my own education.

In the above pic is the book, which is resting upon a plastic tub where my carburetor is safe and stored. I actually have 4 carbs at the moment in addition to the one on the engine. (BTW: the carb currently on the engine will also get a Cliff kit rebuild by myself someday as well)

So here I will share the current status of the QJ rebuild for the rig. Here is the QJ fully disassembled resting together on the build stand which protects the throttle shaft from damage. A couple short pieces of 2x4 will also provide a stand. I just liked the specialty tool.

re-bushed and adjusted (by Cliff) throttle plate:

Cleaned and plated main body on the left, air horn on the right:

 

[norsk]

I had disassembled my QJ and sent the throttle plate for rebuild, the main body and the air horn for deep clean and plating, various rods, flaps, etc for cleaning and plating as well. I purchased the rebuild kit for this carb #, a set of new fasteners, new rods, and other misc items. Came to about $220

It as been sitting waiting for me to get back to it. Here is the rebuild kit:

Here are some tools I have acquired which really help. Drill bits from 40 to 80, digital caliper and the carb stand in a prior picture.

A pic of the parts safely stored in the plastic tub ($5). Subsystem parts are inside of zip lock bags to keep the parts together:

(Each of the carbs are stored in their own similar tub to keep their parts together)

In the course of working on this, I found that this particular carb is NOT the best one to work with. Computer linked carbs have a TPS and those are not good at all. My carb is the next one up the list. It is not computer connected, but does have a Mixture Control Solenoid (MCS) which reduces the amount of fuel which is pumped into the carb when the engine is warm. They only used this carb in 1985 and 1986, before adding the TPS connected to the computer. I don't need this MCS, therefore I can fill the small bowl where the solenoid fits with LEAD to disable that feature. Then the carb will be just fine after the Higher Performance mods are done.

Cliff has come up with a set of RECIPES (3 main ones actually), in increasing aggressiveness depending on the aggressiveness of the engine (CAM, compression, gears, etc). I am modifying my carb to recipe number 1. The following list contains the various attributes of the carb that I measured for what they are now and what RECIPE 1 calls for:

Quadrajet #17085231 1825 HMB
This QJ has already been sent in to Cliff for base brass bushings, and plate cleanup and plating.
Ordered its kit as well, and some more parts, like NEW screw kit, etc

Measured the following:

Attribute------------------------------------Measured Value----------------------Recipe 1
Idle Tube ----------------------------------- .036 ------------------------------- .036
Idle Channel Restrictor (DCR)-------------- .055 < size < .059 --------------- .046
Lower idle air bleed -----------------------.070 -------------------------------- .070
Upper idle air bleed (main body) ------ .067 < size < .070 ----------------.067 to .070
Accelerator pump discharge holes ----.026 --------------------------------- .026 to .028
Main air bleed (MAB) (air horn) --------- .082 < size < .088 ---------------- .070
Idle bypass air -------------------------- .055
Mixture screw holes --------------------- .055 --(+.015 to .020)------------- .070
Main Jet ----------------------------------- .067 < size < .070 ----------------.073 (in kit)
Primary rod ------------------------------ .044 -------------------------------- .044
Fuel inlet seat --------------------------- .128 < size=.130 < .136 ---------.135
Secondary POE well restriction -------.039 --------------------------------- .032 to .038
Secondary POE restriction ------------ .052 -------------------------------- .052 to .055
Secondary tube restriction ------------ .025 -------------------------------- .036
Secondary hanger --------------------- N----------------------------------- K or higher
Secondary metering rods -------------.0667 CL ------------------------- .045-.055 (DA in kit)


Another good website for QJ parts info (rods and hangers) is: http://www.carburetion.com/rodshang.asp


Summary mods I will make:

1) I will enlarge the mixture hole to .090
2) Install the 73 jet (was .69 or so - lean)
3) Install the .135 fuel inlet seat (was .110 - low flow)
4) Install the K hanger (more fuel) (was N - also lean hanger)
5) Install the DA rods (more rich) (was CL - the leanest rod possible)
6) Install the primary rods that were original

and leave the rest alone for now.


Cliff's DD is a 1974 GTO with his QJ, generating 600+ HP, and 11.64/11.66 sec 1/4 mile





And a good video for determining misc problems with a QJ:



Without cliffs book, I don't think I would have tackled the QJ. It gives the history of the QJ, how it works, how to identify the various versions of the carb, which are good units, which are bad, how each system can be modified to improve operation, and where its weaknesses and strengths are. Understanding the operation of a system is important in being able to modify that system correctly. Great book. Have read it 7+ times now.

I know this is a Toyota forum, but for those like me who have installed a SBC with a carb - I know there are others out there - taking care of your QJ becomes vital, at least to me and hopefully for others.

Lots of videos on youtube on the QJ, some good, some not good, but I have found Cliff to really have the answers.

AND I found out (johnny late here) that there are intake manifolds that allow one to put carbs on the 5.3L engine - yeah, sounds like fun. AND true, I am a bit weird, but this hobby allows one to do things a bit different and in a TLC at that.

If I had known that fact (carb on a 5.3L and the 5.3L existing) I would have done the 5.3L with a carb instead of my Gen I SBC - but oh what the tuition has bought me in skills and knowledge and a smaller wallet.

The 5.3L would have been MUCH cheaper: $2000 for the 5.3L and a carb vs $7500 for the Gen I engine and carb.

My future FJ40 will have a 5.3L with a Quadrajet Carb!

Video of a LS1 with a QJ:




UPDATE: I remembered a friend who casts lead bullets. He has agreed to fill the small void in my main body of the carb. Once done, I can then proceed to re-assemble.

dougbert

 

[Howard705]

Really like the qj research. Have always saved some for this same reason. Same boat as you though just got a new hip and way backed up on projects.

 

[norsk]

The cast is off, the wheel chair is on its way back to the medical equipment store and I am in a boot walking (albeit) slowing from home to car, car to work and back again. Went and looked at the rig and I have 4 brand new lifters for the passenger side and a new water pump waiting to be installed. Probably another 2 weekends as this coming one we are going to a grandson's wedding in Washington state near Seattle.

Been VERY warm 67+ here in Utah - all that time I could have been working on the rig - oh well.

Since I screwed up my original throttle plate - drilled the mixture holes too big for this carb (.090) instead of .070 inch - I went looking for a matching carb:

I found another one on ebay and its throttle plate matches mine perfectly and it's mixture holes are .077 and its screws fit it nicely. Will be sending it off to Cliff Ruggles for overhaul and when it gets back, I will be assembling the carb.

A little update.

dougbert

 

[norsk]

Shipped throttle plate off to Cliff and then went out to the rig today because it is warm (60) and cold/wet/snow front is coming here day after tomorrow (Saturday) and I wanted to test out the lifters.

Installed the 4 NEW lifters in the passenger side and they all worked with mostly equal pressure. Cylinder 8 was NOT gushing, so I believe that is fixed.

BUT................

discovered something else.....

coolant in the oil. Drained oil pan and got like 10 quarts out - geeezzzz. Dropped oil filter and put in 5 gallons of OReilly's low cost oil special and a new WIX filter. Primed the oil pump again, and flushed out a bunch of more "bad oil". Again the lifters looked great. Turned the engine over by hand 2 or some revs, all the while running the pump to flush the galleys. Then drained that oil pan again, and emptied the filter then put the filter back on.

Put a 2nd set of 5 quarts of oil and ran the oil pump again, and also turned the engine over some 2 more turns and pumping oil.

So, lifters working and new oil in the engine, now to figure out how the coolant got in the oil:

1) manifold gasket
2) head gasket
3) cracked head
4) cracked block

It is possible the manifold (Fel-Pro) gasket leaked when I took off and replaced the manifold
Also possible head (MLS Fel-Pro) gasket leaked.
Brand new heads, heavy duty Vortecs
Machinist went all over the block when he worked on it. Possible a break occurred since then.

So my plan is to do the following:

a) Re-torque heads, will need to drop RAMS Horn manifolds
b) Will set passenger side lifters/rockers to spec
c) New Manifold gasket, just to be sure
d) install Manifold and ensure torqued to spec
e) drain oil and leave plug out over catch basin
f) Install Water pump and the rest
g) Will install coolant and with a pump flush coolant through the engine and out the back bypass/heater hose source
h) watch for coolant to drain out oil pan - Hopefully none will.

dougbert

 

[norsk]

I earlier gave my carb's main body to a friend who casts lead bullets and asked if he could cast some lead into the MCS (Mixture Control Solenoid) hole in the main body. The MCS will be disabled, totally. Here is a picture of the what he returned, nicely filled in. It is the shiny plug on the left center of the picture.

Shortly will begin the task of assembling the carb. Waiting on (new-old) throttle plate to be returned from Cliff Ruggles after its overhaul.

I am walking now without a cane and the weather indicates temps in the 50s tomorrow, so I believe I will have enough time and sun to re-assembly the intake manifold (with RTV around the water jackets) and put the water pump back in.

The assumption is that the engine will start and purrrrrrrrr............

dougbert

 

[norsk]

Totally side event in my hobbies. I have wanted (needed) a pickup for some time. I did NOT want to pay the price of newer pickups so I have followed with my plan to rebuild one up myself (the FJ60 project has given me a lot of confidence), but to do so much cheaper than the FJ60 has cost (oh my, has the FJ60 been more expensive than I first thought).

I bought a fairly clean 1984 GMC K1500 (chevy/GMC parts are much cheaper), w/o engine for $750. It has a SM465 coupled to a NP205C, but I desired something more.

I have now put together a powertrain starting with a (1993-1995) NV4500 ($375: 277,000 miles so rebuild will occur sometime) coupled to a NP241C ($200 - passenger drop), using sachs NFW1050 flywheel ($65) and an AA bell housing ($366) for the older NV4500 to mate to a chevy engine. My plan is to get a used 5.3L (these cost $600 here with all accessories) and install that into the PU. This power train could have gone into the FJ60 - my have I learned things.

I mention it here only to show I have graduated from the gen I engine to a gen III engine in my interests. I will continue to finish my FJ60 with its gen I engine and enjoy it much. I have pondered where I can document my cheaper and less time rebuild of the "jimmy". I will eventually paint the PU with the same stuff I will paint the FJ60 - "Brown Eye Girl, Monstaliner" through out. I will use both for various projects. (Actually, I think my wife will be driving the FJ60 the most)

A future FJ-40 rebuild is still in the future, just needed a PU to haul stuff. I have had to borrow jake's 1962 PU to move the large objects (engines, etc) in life. About time to get my own.

dougbert

 

[dbleon]

Glad to hear you discovered gen iii sbc. You should stick it in the cruiser instead.

 

[dbleon]

Only half joking

 

[Output Shaft]

!

 

[norsk]

Glad to hear you discovered gen iii sbc. You should stick it in the cruiser instead.

Well If I could get all my money back, I could get 10 5.3L engines for that cost.

lol, but it was a whole bunch of tuition and in return a bunch of knowledge/skillsets.
Plus, I expect about 100,000 miles (say 6 years?) on that gen I, THEN I can update the engine to some gen VII............the body lives on.

doug

btw, just spent $600 on 2002 5.3L with all the accessories, cable throttle and 143k miles. Will get to see it monday night.

 

[Elbert]

I thought you were running a old non-smog/non electric quadrajet on your LC project, seems like that would be the prefernce..? Whats going on with the oil issues, and getting the engine running?

 

[norsk]

I thought you were running a old non-smog/non electric quadrajet on your LC project, seems like that would be the prefernce..? Whats going on with the oil issues, and getting the engine running?

I am running a non-smog/non-electric QJ, yes - it "had" a Mixture Control solenoid but has been disabled and hole filled with lead.
The oil issues are gone with the new passenger side lifters, and TOMORROW is a sunny day where I will put it back together again with all the right fixes and will restart.

Have not had the time (due to physical therapy and snowy weather) to do it since the boot came off.

The LC IS primary job 1. All the PU stuff so far has been done without being outside, and just bring stuff home and researching the web......tomorrow for sure more work on the LC

dougbert

 

[norsk]

Got the lifters on passenger side (had not taken driver's side off) set at zero lash and 1 full turn as per Comp Cams instructions then set the set screw. Carefully prepared the intake and the heads, cleaned off the dried RTV on both, examined fel-pro gasket and cleaned it up as well.

Put RTV on front and back cross bars and then on both sides of the gasket around the 4 water passages from the heads and let dry a bit for about 15 minutes. Placed the intake on, and hand tightened all 8 bolts. Then began 3 passes of torquing them, 71 in-lbs, 106 in-lbs and finally 11 ft-lbs all in the prescribed cross pattern. Such little torque.

Due to other things (like wife's ideas on what she needed me to do - aka a mule) most of the day was NOT on the truck. We got a couple of leaks in both bathrooms - thanks karma. So I was able to spend a few hours I on the truck but not enough to finish.

This will let the RTV set better, then I can put the Water Pump on, and the accessories and the radiator, and see if get a leak, on another day. I was a bit more tired than normal, since I have been off-line for over 2 months now.

As for the drive train for the GMC, I can see all the stuff that is coming together can also be used for a 5.3L, nv4500 and a Toyota transfercase for installing in a FJ60/FJ40 - so I am still learning for future Toyota project - grin

Was able to study the guy at www.lt1swap.com where he documents and photos the process to modify one's own harness of a 5.3L, he has several such project threads for different years of cars (LT1 based) of Gen II and of cars and trucks of Gen III. I studied the 99-02 Red/Blue connector ECM harness. I think I can do that and maybe save money and gain a skill

dougbert

 

[norsk]

Saturday, spent time on the FJ-60 to get the engine going once more (BTW: NO coolant leaks on the outside and I believe none on the inside. Lifters looked GREAT flowing oil properly, when I did the oil prime)

torqued intake to 15 ft-lbs again
Installed PS steering bracket and pump
Installed Alternator
Installed WP pump, and pulley along with fan
Tightened all things down

Filled radiator with 2.5+ gallons of coolant
Poured gas into the carb to fill the float bowl

Started the engine and began to set the timing but engine would not stay lit.
Examined fuel pressure gauge I have on the fuel line before the carb and it was ZERO lbs. WTF?

some more diagnosis and yes, the new Carter mechanical fuel pump worked not! It is a RETURN BYPASS type and I don't know the cause, but I was done with the mechanical anyway.

Since then, I have ordered a Holley HP-150 pump (15 psi) , regulator (4-9 psi) and filters (100 micron pre-filter and a 40 micro post pump filter) and misc parts. Since it was observed by someone on this thread, that the exhaust pipe was within inches of the mechanical fuel pump and not safe, I decided to put a plate on the fuel pump hole, and go electric 15 psi and reg'd down 7 or so psi. So that should be arriving in a few days and on Saturday will start re-plumbing stuff, and wiring. I am going to add a starter and fuel pump "kill" switches to the mix for some anti-theft features.

Will be using an oil pressure switch as well so that the fuel pump only runs when there is oil pressure or when the starter is engaged.

Now to go under and design where to put the pump and filters. At least things will only be 15 psi, and not 90/60 psi on the pickup. I can use some good fuel hoses, barbs and clamps to tap into the fuel draw line.

Will take and post pictures of the fuel system during and after installation.

Here is a stock pic of the pump. It is a georotor pump and very quiet. Ordered with a $50 off coupon as well.

And one of the filters (both look the same, but are different filtering size, the housings are pretty steep, but the filter replacement cartridges are about $12 each. Ordered one extra of each as well.

and a poor stock photo of the regulator

BTW: I am walking well with just a slight limp and some weakness on balancing - things are going great in that regard.

And here is a picture of my 2002 Silverado 5.3L engine I got for $600

dougbert

 

[Output Shaft]

http://fstperformance.com/

(on my wish list)