4BD1T into FJ60 Fit Issues (1 Viewer)

[Dazed]

So I managed to get my 4BD1T into the FJ60....well sort of. The transmission is mounted in its stock location and the 4BD1T is attached to it. There are a few fitting issues that I am having that I hope people have already solved.

On the passenger side rear of the engine, the mount/bracket is contacting the firewall, how was this worked around?

The heater pipes are near the same location as the mount above and I am not sure how to access them or get hoses to them later. How was this solved?

What was the level of people's motor mounts? Can you supply pictures. I think that at best, the motor mounts will be even with the frame; aka the bolts will be at frame level (the 2F's were slightly above frame level).

How much clearance did you guys have beteween the Alternator (or AC, depending on your set up) and the steering box? I have very little.

Also, did you really put the engine in, fit it, and then pull it out again and weld up the engine mounts? It was a real PITA to get that sucker in there and get the tranny aligned properly!

One last picture in the next post....I have no idea how to paste pictures in-line.

thanks in advance.
Dazed

 

[Dazed]

last picture

 

[longbow]

Hi Dazed,

What adapter are you using for the tranny to the Isuzu? I used the now out of business Isuzu diesel swapper kit with a Downey bell housing and put the tranny in the factory position. This put my bracket by the heater hose fittings on the firewall a few inches forward of where you are because with mine I had enough room to route to the right towards the brake master and around to the front to the engine hose fittings. If you are using 69Rambler's kit then it is a few inches shorter and you will have to move the tranny mounts forward to get the clearance you need to the firewall. I know that sucks because now you have to change drive shaft lengths, but you will need that clearance for turbo piping to the inlet to the turbo.

I know what you mean about getting that engine in and taking it out for motor mount welding. I didn't, it was too much of a pain, so I just fabbed my mounts with the engine in place and cooled the welds with wet rags after welding a few inches to keep from melting the motor mounts.

My alternator is on the top and AC compressor is on the bottom on mine and I used a Sanden 709 which is a smaller compressor than the factory Isuzu model and I tucked it up tight against the engine for maximum clearance and then made a custom tensioner. Here is a couple of pics. The top one isn't a good angle but there is about 3/4" clearance between the AC pulley and the steering box.

If I remember correctly, Doug720 made a spacer for his steering box that moved it out 5/8 or 3/4" to gain some clearance there on his setup.

Hope this helps,

Don

 

[Dazed]

Don
thanks for the reply. I am using the Sanden as well with a custom (read ghetto) tensioner as well. I think that might be able to tuck the Alternator further up to give myself some more clearance.

I am using 69rambler's adapter. The plan/hope was that by using that, I wouldnt have to change the driveline at all. I think that I am the first to actually use it in an install though....there have already been some feedback to him and he is redesigning something. I am hoping that I can put a right angle on those heater pipes and make it work and "motivate" the firewall to move out of the way some. As for the intake, I think I can redo the pipe, like Doug did and route it over the top of the engine.

It is good to know that you didnt take out the motor for the mounts. Do you have pictures of them?

Dazed/Mitch

 

[MANUCHAO]

Mitch, on my gasser engine I tack welded the motor mounts while it hanged and had to pull the whole thing out a few times...but fitment was/is crucial....

Again, on my swap I got about half inch clearance to the steering box... but it hasn't moved ever......

Looking good man !!!!

 

[longbow]

Hi Mitch,

I think you are the first to do the swap with his adapter. I looked around and couldn't find any pics of my mounts. I used 4" box steel for the mounts and cut them at the factory 40 degree angle and that is what I welded to the frame. I then cut some 2" wide by 1/4" thick plates and bolted them to the factory mounts because they are about 6" wide. I then set the engine in and played around until I had it in the right spacing off the steering box and then tacked the 4" box pieces to the frame where they needed to be and lifted the engine up some so I could weld the 4" pieces to the frame completely and then I lowered the engine back down and made sure it was in the right spot and then welded the plates on the factory mounts to the 4" frame mounts. Hopefully that is clear but I will try to get some pics later this morning when it gets light out.

If you can some how get some 90s on those firewall pipes, it would be a great help. I thought about doing that with mine but I just wasn't motivated enough to pull the entire dash out and pull the heater box out and solder on some 90s and then put a larger hole in the firewall and a new custom grommet to finish it.

Have you checked the clearance with the turbo mounted up yet. I have my turbo pipe up and over the engine like doug720 and my clearance is minimal on my intake pipe right at the turbo. Mine is a T3 Garrett turbo so it isn't the stock setup. Are you using the stock turbo or an upgraded one?

I love this engine and this swap and the only thing I regret about it was my engine placement being this close to the firewall. At the time I did the swap, I was really concerned about not having to change driveline lengths and thought this was extremely important. 2 1/2 years later it is the one thing that I wish I could go back and change. A couple inches further forward would really reduce a lot of headaches down the road. This engine idles smoothly at about 750 to 800 RPMs, but during start up and shutdown the engine moves quite a bit side to side, not in a gentle way either! I don't want to call it a violent shudder, but it sure isn't a delicate one either. This has caused issues for me over time because my intake pipe hits the firewall towards the driver side during shutdown and start up due to the movement. Same goes for the heater hoses and the back of the engine and all of these I have had make protection pieces to keep them from chaffing over time. It takes a long time to wear stuff like this when it is only on start up an shutdown, but it is annoying because I can hear it every time I start and stop the engine and I am a perfectionist when it comes to my projects. Just some food for thought for you, because down the road you may want more performance out of that engine and if you swap to a larger turbo and don't have firewall clearance, you are going to wish you just moved it and dealt with the custom driveshafts.

Let me know if I can help,

Don

 

[doug720]

Mitch,

Go to my thread and check the pictures in pages 2-3, you will see a lot of pictures of my engine mounts and height. You are the first with this set up that I know of, and I thought we discussed this potential problem, this "Kit" locates the motor back and extra 1" or so and would makes things very close to the firewall with the trans in the stock location.

I used a 1/2" spacer on steering box to push it outward for a little extra room, in my case, for my AC compressor. AS Don mentioned, these engines move a lot on cold start and shutdown, so you want some room to move a little.

I removed my engine to weld my mounts to the frame, but I made it easy in myself. I did not install the clutch while test fitting and made a support to hold the trans in place also. A good trick to make alignment easier is to get two transmission to bell housing bolts, cut the hex head off, round off the smooth ends, make slots in the smooth end and screw them into opposite corners of the bell housing. You use these as guide to align the trans mission into place, add the two regular bolts to hold it all together, and use a flat blade screw driver to remover the special bolts, then replace them with regular bolts, quick and easy.

Take a look at some of my pictures to get an idea of placement, Hope this help.

Doug

 

[Dazed]

I used a 1/2" spacer on steering box to push it outward for a little extra room, in my case, for my AC compressor. AS Don mentioned, these engines move a lot on cold start and shutdown, so you want some room to move a little.

It looks like moving the steering box out by 1/2" would do wonders, so I am going to do that.

I removed my engine to weld my mounts to the frame, but I made it easy in myself. I did not install the clutch while test fitting and made a support to hold the trans in place also. A good trick to make alignment easier is to get two transmission to bell housing bolts, cut the hex head off, round off the smooth ends, make slots in the smooth end and screw them into opposite corners of the bell housing. You use these as guide to align the trans mission into place, add the two regular bolts to hold it all together, and use a flat blade screw driver to remover the special bolts, then replace them with regular bolts, quick and easy.

If I ever have to do this again, I will be doing that!

I think you are the first to do the swap with his adapter. I looked around and couldn't find any pics of my mounts. I used 4" box steel for the mounts and cut them at the factory 40 degree angle and that is what I welded to the frame....

It looks like you and Doug did something similar. I have some 2.5" box with 1/4" wall lying around. I was thinking of using that and some 1/4" or 3/8" (not sure which it is right now) plate I have to make the mounts.

The 40deg is good to know, I didnt know that before and I hadnt measured it.

If you can some how get some 90s on those firewall pipes, it would be a great help. I thought about doing that with mine but I just wasn't motivated enough to pull the entire dash out and pull the heater box out and solder on some 90s and then put a larger hole in the firewall and a new custom grommet to finish it.

...

I love this engine and this swap and the only thing I regret about it was my engine placement being this close to the firewall. At the time I did the swap, I was really concerned about not having to change driveline lengths and thought this was extremely important. 2 1/2 years later it is the one thing that I wish I could go back and change. A couple inches further forward would really reduce a lot of headaches down the road. This engine idles smoothly at about 750 to 800 RPMs, but during start up and shutdown the engine moves quite a bit side to side, not in a gentle way either! I don't want to call it a violent shudder, but it sure isn't a delicate one either. This has caused issues for me over time because my intake pipe hits the firewall towards the driver side during shutdown and start up due to the movement. Same goes for the heater hoses and the back of the engine and all of these I have had make protection pieces to keep them from chaffing over time. It takes a long time to wear stuff like this when it is only on start up an shutdown, but it is annoying because I can hear it every time I start and stop the engine and I am a perfectionist when it comes to my projects. Just some food for thought for you, because down the road you may want more performance out of that engine and if you swap to a larger turbo and don't have firewall clearance, you are going to wish you just moved it and dealt with the custom driveshafts.

So fresh eyes this morning make things look quite a bit better. The two spots where there arent inches of space are near the steering box (see above) and the heater hose inputs. With the heater hoses, I think that the bracket that is there can be trimmed to fit and the breather box (that is what I am assuming it is) can be moved to somewhere else. I should be able to get rubber right angle hose to go over them, so no taking things apart.

The engine isnt in exactly the right spot yet though. The truck has a slight tilt with the engine up (see level picture) and the engine has a slight tilt backwards (see level picture number 2). I remember reading that the engine needs to have a 4deg rear tilt, but these angles dont seem too dramatic of different from where it is now. I also think that the crankshaft center line (not the engine center line) needs to move to the passenger side an inch or two so that it is in the center line of the truck. I tried to show that in the pictures.

Have you checked the clearance with the turbo mounted up yet. I have my turbo pipe up and over the engine like doug720 and my clearance is minimal on my intake pipe right at the turbo. Mine is a T3 Garrett turbo so it isn't the stock setup. Are you using the stock turbo or an upgraded one?

I am putting on an upgraded turbo. A thread on that is on 4dbtswaps. There is an issue currently with the adapter bracket on there. The consensus is that it can be shortened about an inch, which will probably be just enough if the engine is shifted over an inch or two.

Mitch

 

[Dazed]

level pictures

 

[FL cruiser]

From what I understand the distance between the block and transmission on the Allmares kit is shorter than the IDS or any of the other conversion options.

My one swap I did the same setup and placement as Longbow Don with the IDS adapter. Firewall clearance was just enough. I can't imagine doing a swap with less clearance. I know you won't like this suggestion, but you might want to consider moving the drive train forward. Even if you did have firewall clearance, the center of the rear of the transmission is 3" left (drivers side) of center with the factory crossmember. To clear starter A/C compressor and alternator the front of the Isuzu engine would have to be center or 1" right of center in the vehicle. Your engine will sit in the engine compartment at an angle. Having an engine/trans that's not parallel isn't a problem or anything, but that much of an angle is pretty noticeable though.

Engine placement close to the firewall is better for oil pan clearance. Moving it forward is better for oil filter to driveshaft clearance and exhaust routing.

Too bad we just can't have it easy

 

[FL cruiser]

I made a bracket to raise both the compressor and alternator up to clear the steering box

 

[FL cruiser]

On the other 60 I put the A/C compressor on the pass side and used a GM steering pump on the drivers side and mounted it up close to the alternator.

 

[bluehawk]

I have the same adapter from 69Rambler, just have not put it all together yet. Waiting to do some body work, frame swap, SOA conversion, and a bunch of other stuff. Glad to know someone else is doing this before me, that way I can learn from others. Hopefully others can learn from me also.

 

[Dazed]

Ok so more has been learned.

Bluehawk....wait to do stuff, let me figure it out. I already found one issue: if you are using the remote filter mount, the mount the the block wont fit with the starter. Dustin is aware of the issue and working a solution. Luckily we dont have an issue clearing the oil filter to the differential if we do the oil mount remotely, but the oil pan to differential is pretty darn close....I may mod my oil pan.

Questions I have currently are in regards to mounting angles. What is the desired (ideal) mounting angle and can it be something else? What was the 2F mounting angle? What is the 4BD1T? Why is mounting angle important? Is it important?

The setup looks like it will work without drive train mods/moving if the engine is at an angle of 1.5deg or less. I can probably squeeze 2 or 2.5 deg, but it will be tight.

If I do not move the drive train forward, then the sole issue that I am seeing is with the turbo mounting (turbo to master cylinder). There is space to the firewall and it looks like there is space between the alternator and steering box (if the steering box space is an issue, then I can make a 1/2" spacer as discussed above.) The turbo adapter will be a bit of a pain, but I am thinking less of a pain than redoing the driveline. Another issue with the engine further to the rear is that the weight is less over the front axle. Is that an issue?

FL, I thought that the shaft from the transmission shaft was in the center of the vehicle.....interesting if it isnt, but that kind of makes sense. Lifting the engine straight on the driveline versus clocked to one side or the other is challenging.

Does anyone know if the Isuzu engine mounts are symmetric around the crankshaft? I am trying to figure out the engine mounts more. Getting them measured up exactly right will be challenging.

 

[FL cruiser]

FL, I thought that the shaft from the transmission shaft was in the center of the vehicle....

The 2F's engine and transmission's center line is 2.5" to 3" left of center.

IMO the engine angle isn't that important. Even if the engine/trans isn't parallel with the frame rails it probably will be fine. It probably won't vibrate or anything either. I've done an engine conversion before like that. It's just that someone will usually come up and say "hey man, is that engine is in there crooked?"

You can always use a Hydroboost booster and mount it upside down to get turbo clearance. And you get better brakes to boot.

 

[Dazed]

The 2F's engine and transmission's center line is 2.5" to 3" left of center.

Is left passenger side or drivers side?

You can always use a Hydroboost booster and mount it upside down to get turbo clearance. And you get better brakes to boot.

I will look into hydroboost...dont even know what it is. I have upgraded to the 4runner calipers.

 

[doug720]

Mitch,

I asked the same questions about engine angles and we had a good discussion about them in my swap thread. Same area pages 2-3.

The consensus was the engine systems are all pressurized, so angle is not that critical for engine operation within 5+ degrees up or down from level. I set my engine angle so my rear driveshaft angle was the same as stock for vibration. It worked well as I have no drive line vibration issues.

For side to side placement, I bolted the engine to the bell housing/trans that was attached to the stock trans cross member. I slotted the cross member bolt holes to allow about 1.25" of side movement to adjust the engine position. My install ended up being fairly close to the stock 2f position side to side. Later I welded another piece of 1/8" steel to the cross member with the proper hole spacing to strengthen it up some and eliminate slop and movement.heavy plate

For the front mounts, I used the stock isuzu engine mounts and 3'X6" sq tube for the frame mounts. Once the mounts were cut at 40 degrees and driveshaft angle was set to stock angle, I held the mounts in the correct position and scribed the engine mount holes. Drilled the holes and bolted the frame mounts to the engine mounts and double checked the angles. Tacked the frame mounts in, checked angles again, then pulled the engine and welded and painted.

The hydroboost replaces your vacuum boosted can with a power assist unit driven by the PS pump. The foot print is much smaller than the vac booster. The units from a Chevy Astro van are good units that almost bolt onto the firewall. Flcruiser knows about these swaps. I found one for mine, but my turbo cleared my stock booster so never used it and later sold it.

Check some of my pictures for reference, I have a few that are near straight on shots do you can get an idea of engine placement.

Hope this helps.

Doug

 

[FL cruiser]

Is left passenger side or drivers side?

Drivers side.

Check out Doug's install thread. If you do a search for "The Journey Begins", you'll find it. There's some detailed info on how he dealt with the A/C compressor and engine placement.

If you need to move the engine forward, it's not too big of a deal. Driveshaft lengthening/shortening is fairly reasonable cost wise.

It might be an obstacle and extra work initially to have a new trans crossmember made so you can get the engine further forward and more to the center. But it might make things easier for you in the long run for turbo, steering box and A/C compressor clearances. Easier exhaust routing too.

It might even be to your benefit to have the engine slightly right (pass side) of center.

On the 2nd install I moved the engine way further forward. It made just about everything easier. All except for oil pan to diff clearance.

 

[doug720]

I just compared a picture from my swap thread on page 1 to your top shot. It looks like my engine is at least 2" towards the passenger side than yours. I agree with FLcruiser to move it further to the passenger side. It will help with the turbo plumbing and exhaust also. Depending on the throttle you use, it will also help the cable clear the engine.

Doug

 

[bluehawk]

Hey Dazed, are you using the stock H42 trans in your Cruiser? I bought an H55 and I am not sure if there is much difference in the two. I also plan on putting the trans/t-case in the stock position. My build is a bit different. I am doing a frame off type of build, kinda of a restoration of sorts. Also doing a SOA conversion with 35x12.5 mounted on 15x8".

Are you saying that with the starter placement that Dustin has, that it doesn't work well with the oil filter block off plate? Plan on doing a remote oil filter like Doug. Will be following your build to see how you fit it all together. I am using the stock turbo also and running the piping over the top and into a HJ61 air cleaner.