Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
Mike .. this is awesome !
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Woohoo! This is so cool...
Will you be coming with us this Saturday?
- Thread starter
- #2,105
I believe I can get everything functional for Saturday although I'll be watching on the harder stuff. The actual tuning will take a little more time but it's drivable now. I just have a few things to fix for a trip.
- Thread starter
- #2,106
Turbo Support
I made this bracket to support the Primary turbo. There are coolant passages on the HE351vgt that I'm not using for coolant. It turned into being a great spot to fasten a mount.
Block side bolts are: M12 x 1.75.
The coolant passage on the HE351vgt was a bit harder to find. This is metric, an M16 x 1.5 pitch. This is basically a fine thread for this size of metric and is very hard to find in this pitch at the regular hardware stores. For those of you in the Portland Oregon area here are the bolt stores I went to:
Ace hardware - this is my local store close to where I live now and they have a pretty good selection of bolts. I can get most bolts there. I did find an M16 x 1.5 drain plug (used one on the turbo's top port you can see in previous pics) but it wasn't long enough to go through the bracket I made as it ended up being double plated 1/4" where the turbo mounting hole is.
Parkrose hardware (Truevalue) - Used to live near this one and it has a fantastic and diverse selection. No bolt.
Wichita Feed - I was referred to this one as having harder to find bolts. They didn't have one.
Wink's Hardware - Close to downtown and have been there forever. I was surprised to find that they didn't have my bolt either.
Fastenal - There are a couple around my area but it was an order and ship thing.
Vancouver bolt - Right in downtown Vancouver WA, just across the river from me and also referred by another bolt house. They had one that would work!! They have now turned into my holy grail of bolt houses that are in relatively close driving distance. If I've got specialty bolts to find they will get a call.
Internet - Easily found on the internet. But the bolt was $2.50 and shipping was a flat $6. Vancouver Bolt was my last attempt and I would have had to go to the internet, but luckily I found it local.
Here is the support installed along with that special bolt. Plenty of room for starter. You can also see in this pic the need for clearancing the corner of the transmission adapter plate for the exhaust housing on the primary.
I made this bracket to support the Primary turbo. There are coolant passages on the HE351vgt that I'm not using for coolant. It turned into being a great spot to fasten a mount.
Block side bolts are: M12 x 1.75.
The coolant passage on the HE351vgt was a bit harder to find. This is metric, an M16 x 1.5 pitch. This is basically a fine thread for this size of metric and is very hard to find in this pitch at the regular hardware stores. For those of you in the Portland Oregon area here are the bolt stores I went to:
Ace hardware - this is my local store close to where I live now and they have a pretty good selection of bolts. I can get most bolts there. I did find an M16 x 1.5 drain plug (used one on the turbo's top port you can see in previous pics) but it wasn't long enough to go through the bracket I made as it ended up being double plated 1/4" where the turbo mounting hole is.
Parkrose hardware (Truevalue) - Used to live near this one and it has a fantastic and diverse selection. No bolt.
Wichita Feed - I was referred to this one as having harder to find bolts. They didn't have one.
Wink's Hardware - Close to downtown and have been there forever. I was surprised to find that they didn't have my bolt either.
Fastenal - There are a couple around my area but it was an order and ship thing.
Vancouver bolt - Right in downtown Vancouver WA, just across the river from me and also referred by another bolt house. They had one that would work!! They have now turned into my holy grail of bolt houses that are in relatively close driving distance. If I've got specialty bolts to find they will get a call.
Internet - Easily found on the internet. But the bolt was $2.50 and shipping was a flat $6. Vancouver Bolt was my last attempt and I would have had to go to the internet, but luckily I found it local.
Here is the support installed along with that special bolt. Plenty of room for starter. You can also see in this pic the need for clearancing the corner of the transmission adapter plate for the exhaust housing on the primary.
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- Thread starter
- #2,107
Oil Drain lines
These became a pain. I was trying to use what I had and make metal drain lines. I ended up spending over 8 hours on just these parts and in the end I was really unhappy with them. A big part of the push was this winter storm that was coming through the area and I was trying to get the truck on the road for my
to use so she wouldn't have to walk the kids to school in the crazy weather. I finally had to take a step back and realize I was just pushing it and not doing a job I would be happy with. So I took a day off from the truck (consequently schools where closed for the storm so she didn't have to take them to school anyways). When I came back to these oil drains I pretty much cut them off and simplified them with some good rated hose. I wanted to take this route first but the guy I talked to at the hose place I go was misinformed and they actually did have some options that would work.
As a side note for those needing to make oil drains for turbos I found that electrical conduit, the metal kind, can be used. They come in bends and straights at the hardware stores. Just be careful welding galvanized stuff.
For the secondary drain I made the flange, for the primary I had a flange from another Holset turbo that I used as a base.
I didn't even take pics of the metal line I made before I cut them off and I probably wouldn't post them anyways so here is the hose I used along with the tee for connecting the two lines. The hose is 7/8" ID and the tee and other tubing is 3/4" ID. The tee is just a copper plumbing tee found at the hardware store.
Hose: NovaFlex Lawrence Marine - 375 Series - Fuel Fill - SAE J1527 USCG Type A2
It can stand up to constant oil contact. It is metal coiled so it holds tight bends without kinking. I was originally planning to go with silicone hose but further research swayed me away from that in this application.
Measured and cut out the lengths I'd need. I picked up t-bolt clamps but they only had 4 so I used those on the connections I thought would give me the most grief. Not shown but I put the copper tee in the vice and gently flared the ends to give the hose something to bite to when I tightened up the clamps.
Underneath clamp population. The worm clamp seems to be holding up and not leaking.
Looking down from the secondary oil drain connection to the tee.
I did have some leaking from the primary oil drain flange as well as at the engine side connection point. I took off the primary oil drain, ground down the welds and re-welded but it looks like it may be leaking again. I may just top coat it with JB weld to seal it up.
These became a pain. I was trying to use what I had and make metal drain lines. I ended up spending over 8 hours on just these parts and in the end I was really unhappy with them. A big part of the push was this winter storm that was coming through the area and I was trying to get the truck on the road for my
to use so she wouldn't have to walk the kids to school in the crazy weather. I finally had to take a step back and realize I was just pushing it and not doing a job I would be happy with. So I took a day off from the truck (consequently schools where closed for the storm so she didn't have to take them to school anyways). When I came back to these oil drains I pretty much cut them off and simplified them with some good rated hose. I wanted to take this route first but the guy I talked to at the hose place I go was misinformed and they actually did have some options that would work.As a side note for those needing to make oil drains for turbos I found that electrical conduit, the metal kind, can be used. They come in bends and straights at the hardware stores. Just be careful welding galvanized stuff.
For the secondary drain I made the flange, for the primary I had a flange from another Holset turbo that I used as a base.
I didn't even take pics of the metal line I made before I cut them off and I probably wouldn't post them anyways so here is the hose I used along with the tee for connecting the two lines. The hose is 7/8" ID and the tee and other tubing is 3/4" ID. The tee is just a copper plumbing tee found at the hardware store.
Hose: NovaFlex Lawrence Marine - 375 Series - Fuel Fill - SAE J1527 USCG Type A2
It can stand up to constant oil contact. It is metal coiled so it holds tight bends without kinking. I was originally planning to go with silicone hose but further research swayed me away from that in this application.
Measured and cut out the lengths I'd need. I picked up t-bolt clamps but they only had 4 so I used those on the connections I thought would give me the most grief. Not shown but I put the copper tee in the vice and gently flared the ends to give the hose something to bite to when I tightened up the clamps.
Underneath clamp population. The worm clamp seems to be holding up and not leaking.
Looking down from the secondary oil drain connection to the tee.
I did have some leaking from the primary oil drain flange as well as at the engine side connection point. I took off the primary oil drain, ground down the welds and re-welded but it looks like it may be leaking again. I may just top coat it with JB weld to seal it up.
Hmmmm... you lost me at "winter storm" and "I get to drive to it on Thursday"... woo hooo(ish)
Some pics of Boots testing things out.
Looks like a fun, snowy, muddy day! Wish I could have made it up there. If for nothing else, than to see Water wheeling his new 42! Well, that, and it seems like forever since I've wheeled with you.
- Thread starter
- #2,114
Oil Feed lines
Went to my favorite fitting place and ended up with this for feeding oil into the turbos.
Aluminum M12 x 1.5 banjo bolts
4 AN banjo fitting
Copper washer to seal
This fit both the TD04H-16T and the HE351vgt.
I set up 4 AN lines on both turbos.
There are two oil feed ports under the oil filter on the 4bt. I converted one of them from the old flare style to a male 4AN. The thread for the top port is M12 x 1.5.
I placed the new fitting in the top port and used an existing angled fitting that was 4AN already in the bottom port. (I needed to tighten up the bottom line a little more after my first test fire).
Top fitting is the left one under the oil filter in this pic.
I became concerned that 4 AN was not going to be enough flow for the HE351vgt due to the size of the main body and some things I'd read online. I didn't want to starve the HE351vgt and since they aren't dirt cheap anymore on ebay I decided to upsized the line. I grabbed the old fitting and found that it is for a 3/8" flared line. I went back to the fitting place and got a line made up (my old one was not long enough). Since I had the old inverted flare fittings I put one in the HE351 turbo and then thought I was going to put the other one back into the bottom oil feed port under the oil filter. With the original fitting being angled and it being right above my motor mount it did not have the clearance to rotate out. I cut off the angled part with a dremel tool and then had enough room to spin it out. Unfortunately I found that the bottom port was not the same size as the top port like I was expecting. The only store open when I found this out was my local hardware store so I hit the racks and found some parts I could turn into an adapter. It turns out the bottom port is 1/4" pipe thread
Picked up a 3/8" inverted flare coupler and a 3/8" flare to 1/4" pipe thread adapter.
I took the adapter and "converted" it to an inverted flare by cutting off the tip and countersinking the hole.
Now I could go from the 1/4" pipe thread lower port to a 3/8" inverted flare line.
I coated the threads and the flare surface with JBweld and tightened it up and set it aside to cure. This would seal it up and prevent it from leaking. Adapter is now done and cleared my motor mount when I installed it.
Oil feed lines tightened up.
Upper port M12 x 1.5 to 4AN fitting running a 4AN feed line to the TD04HL-16T (Secondary)
Lower port 1/4" pipe thread homemade adapter to 3/8" inverted flare line feeding the HE351vgt (Primary)
Went to my favorite fitting place and ended up with this for feeding oil into the turbos.
Aluminum M12 x 1.5 banjo bolts
4 AN banjo fitting
Copper washer to seal
This fit both the TD04H-16T and the HE351vgt.
I set up 4 AN lines on both turbos.
There are two oil feed ports under the oil filter on the 4bt. I converted one of them from the old flare style to a male 4AN. The thread for the top port is M12 x 1.5.
I placed the new fitting in the top port and used an existing angled fitting that was 4AN already in the bottom port. (I needed to tighten up the bottom line a little more after my first test fire).
Top fitting is the left one under the oil filter in this pic.
I became concerned that 4 AN was not going to be enough flow for the HE351vgt due to the size of the main body and some things I'd read online. I didn't want to starve the HE351vgt and since they aren't dirt cheap anymore on ebay I decided to upsized the line. I grabbed the old fitting and found that it is for a 3/8" flared line. I went back to the fitting place and got a line made up (my old one was not long enough). Since I had the old inverted flare fittings I put one in the HE351 turbo and then thought I was going to put the other one back into the bottom oil feed port under the oil filter. With the original fitting being angled and it being right above my motor mount it did not have the clearance to rotate out. I cut off the angled part with a dremel tool and then had enough room to spin it out. Unfortunately I found that the bottom port was not the same size as the top port like I was expecting. The only store open when I found this out was my local hardware store so I hit the racks and found some parts I could turn into an adapter. It turns out the bottom port is 1/4" pipe thread
Picked up a 3/8" inverted flare coupler and a 3/8" flare to 1/4" pipe thread adapter.
I took the adapter and "converted" it to an inverted flare by cutting off the tip and countersinking the hole.
Now I could go from the 1/4" pipe thread lower port to a 3/8" inverted flare line.
I coated the threads and the flare surface with JBweld and tightened it up and set it aside to cure. This would seal it up and prevent it from leaking. Adapter is now done and cleared my motor mount when I installed it.
Oil feed lines tightened up.
Upper port M12 x 1.5 to 4AN fitting running a 4AN feed line to the TD04HL-16T (Secondary)
Lower port 1/4" pipe thread homemade adapter to 3/8" inverted flare line feeding the HE351vgt (Primary)
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You better hope Woody doesn't decide on a server upgrade anytime soon.
- Thread starter
- #2,116
I'll be screwed if my hosting service does that since that will break the picture links (had that happen once before and it really sucked). As long as the code stays the same in my thread the pictures would relink if we had another upgrade here.
As I was reading I was going to ask about your choice of -4an lines. I've got a similar -AN setup with my single, but everything is -6AN.
- Thread starter
- #2,119
I have no restrictors on either turbo. Research suggested that 4AN was a good size for the TD04HL-16T without needing restriction. I'll be pulling some boots to see if any oil is getting by the seals in either turbo as I rack up some driving time. Neither turbo has been rebuilt, just cleaned.
- Thread starter
- #2,120
Odds and ends
Due to the way the TD04HL-16T exhaust housing and flange mated I wasn't sure if it needed a gasket to seal. After starting it up it was easily apparent that it did need one so I hunted one down and picked it up.
I had to take apart a few things but I got the gasket installed and no more exhaust leak.
Because I flipped the exhaust manifold to point up and due to the design of the secondary turbo exhaust housing and how I was positioning it I had one corner that I could not bolt down. I thought about a couple of different ideas to get some clamping force on that corner. I decided to make some kind of external clamping force instead of drilling new holes or welding additional flanges to the manifold and housing. Regular turnbuckles are not strong enough for the short space I had. I figured I'd try to make one with left and right handed nuts and rod ends. Left handed nuts were pretty difficult to come by and a coupler nut that was tapped for both could only be found on the internet. I fabbed up something simple that would fit the space and give me some clamping force for that last corner.
I made a bracket that is held in place by the manifold bolt and that allows a rod end to pull down on one of the exhaust housing's studs.
With the angle of the manifold's mounting surface for the turbo the clamping force is pretty close to straight down. I double nutted the rod end to keep it from loosening up.
For boost reading locations on twins to help for tuning you want a total boost reading and a Primary turbo reading. Total boost can basically be picked up from anywhere after the boost leaves the secondary turbo. I used the same place I had set up when I ran a single turbo which is off a port on the intake manifold. For a Primary reading it needs to be after the compressor outlet on the primary but before that pressure enters the secondary.
Here is where I drilled and tapped a hole on the HE351vgt for primary boost reading. I used some 1/4 line I had left over from my front locker project to act as a sleeve to protect the actual boost line.
Everything together for test drive. I plan to move the air filter from it's current location but needed an extra part to make that happen. That's been ordered and should show up soon but this will work for testing. The 90 u bend I thought I was going to use to connect the two turbos didn't fit how I needed it to fit so I reused my 90 silicon hose with a 90 exhaust bend. All my pressure side intake is 2.5". I took that u bend after I hacked it up and pieced it back together to connect to the intercooler. With the bend in it I hope to be able to clear an AC compressor in the future.
Another shot of downpipe clearance.
So I have been driving it for a week and took it out to the mountains for a shakedown. For tuning before I drove it all I did was set timing at 17 degrees, turn one full turn in on the full power screw, spring gate on the secondary set at 3 turns out from being full tight, primary exhaust housing set at what we calculated as 14cm, and re-leveled idle rpm. Incredibly with twins it was still pretty smokey for my tastes and didn't spool like I hoped. Definitely spooling faster than the single but not instant response. I only hit a max of 32 psi total with 15 from the primary. I definitely have more tuning to do as I didn't really scratch the surface but at least I have a place to start. Even at that boost it feels strong and willing to pull. It was pulling hills well but I popped the intake pipe out of the intercooler. I realized that the paint was finally getting warm on the piece I painted and was acting like a lubricant making it hard for the boot to clamp down and get a good seal. I cleaned off the paint but broke a compression clamp putting it back together on the trip so I used lesser clamps in the tool box and kept my foot out of it for the rest of the trip . My good clamps were at home.
Warning: if you don't like math, don't read any further. Here's the math part needed to know how the turbos are sharing the load. This is simplified to get an idea of what's going on as there are other factors that go into it. You must get it into PR (pressure ratio) to see what's going on.
Formulas:
PR = (PSIg + At pressure)/At pressure
PR = pressure ratio, PSIg = gauge boost pressure reading, At pressure = atmospheric pressure (this changes depending upon your elevation, I'm only a couple hundred feet in elevation so the standard 14.7 works for me).
For my readings:
Total PR = (32 + 14.7)/14.7 = 3.18
Primary PR = (15 + 14.7)/14.7 = 2.02
Then take Total PR/Primary PR to get the secondary PR
Secondary PR = 3.18/2.02 = 1.57
Then to get secondary psi work the formula backwards
Secondary psi = (1.57 * 14.7) - 14.7 = 8.3 psi
What this says is that my primary is doing more of the work. Depending on the turbos used you may not want them to share the load equally. In my case I do want my primary to share a little more of the load. Since I am aiming for a total for 50 psi WOT this is what I'm looking for:
Total PR = 4.40
Primary = 2.4 to 2.6 PR range which translates to 20.6psi to 23.5psi on the gauge
Secondary = 1.83 to 1.69 PR range which mean it's putting out 12.2psi to 10.1psi
So to look at it very simply as I'm tuning the spring gate and fueling I am looking for 20-24psi on my primary gauge and about 50psi on my total boost gauge. That will help me know how the turbos are sharing the load at whatever fuel I'm throwing at them.
Due to the way the TD04HL-16T exhaust housing and flange mated I wasn't sure if it needed a gasket to seal. After starting it up it was easily apparent that it did need one so I hunted one down and picked it up.
I had to take apart a few things but I got the gasket installed and no more exhaust leak.
Because I flipped the exhaust manifold to point up and due to the design of the secondary turbo exhaust housing and how I was positioning it I had one corner that I could not bolt down. I thought about a couple of different ideas to get some clamping force on that corner. I decided to make some kind of external clamping force instead of drilling new holes or welding additional flanges to the manifold and housing. Regular turnbuckles are not strong enough for the short space I had. I figured I'd try to make one with left and right handed nuts and rod ends. Left handed nuts were pretty difficult to come by and a coupler nut that was tapped for both could only be found on the internet. I fabbed up something simple that would fit the space and give me some clamping force for that last corner.
I made a bracket that is held in place by the manifold bolt and that allows a rod end to pull down on one of the exhaust housing's studs.
With the angle of the manifold's mounting surface for the turbo the clamping force is pretty close to straight down. I double nutted the rod end to keep it from loosening up.
For boost reading locations on twins to help for tuning you want a total boost reading and a Primary turbo reading. Total boost can basically be picked up from anywhere after the boost leaves the secondary turbo. I used the same place I had set up when I ran a single turbo which is off a port on the intake manifold. For a Primary reading it needs to be after the compressor outlet on the primary but before that pressure enters the secondary.
Here is where I drilled and tapped a hole on the HE351vgt for primary boost reading. I used some 1/4 line I had left over from my front locker project to act as a sleeve to protect the actual boost line.
Everything together for test drive. I plan to move the air filter from it's current location but needed an extra part to make that happen. That's been ordered and should show up soon but this will work for testing. The 90 u bend I thought I was going to use to connect the two turbos didn't fit how I needed it to fit so I reused my 90 silicon hose with a 90 exhaust bend. All my pressure side intake is 2.5". I took that u bend after I hacked it up and pieced it back together to connect to the intercooler. With the bend in it I hope to be able to clear an AC compressor in the future.
Another shot of downpipe clearance.
So I have been driving it for a week and took it out to the mountains for a shakedown. For tuning before I drove it all I did was set timing at 17 degrees, turn one full turn in on the full power screw, spring gate on the secondary set at 3 turns out from being full tight, primary exhaust housing set at what we calculated as 14cm, and re-leveled idle rpm. Incredibly with twins it was still pretty smokey for my tastes and didn't spool like I hoped. Definitely spooling faster than the single but not instant response. I only hit a max of 32 psi total with 15 from the primary. I definitely have more tuning to do as I didn't really scratch the surface but at least I have a place to start. Even at that boost it feels strong and willing to pull. It was pulling hills well but I popped the intake pipe out of the intercooler. I realized that the paint was finally getting warm on the piece I painted and was acting like a lubricant making it hard for the boot to clamp down and get a good seal. I cleaned off the paint but broke a compression clamp putting it back together on the trip so I used lesser clamps in the tool box and kept my foot out of it for the rest of the trip . My good clamps were at home.
Warning: if you don't like math, don't read any further. Here's the math part needed to know how the turbos are sharing the load. This is simplified to get an idea of what's going on as there are other factors that go into it. You must get it into PR (pressure ratio) to see what's going on.
Formulas:
PR = (PSIg + At pressure)/At pressure
PR = pressure ratio, PSIg = gauge boost pressure reading, At pressure = atmospheric pressure (this changes depending upon your elevation, I'm only a couple hundred feet in elevation so the standard 14.7 works for me).
For my readings:
Total PR = (32 + 14.7)/14.7 = 3.18
Primary PR = (15 + 14.7)/14.7 = 2.02
Then take Total PR/Primary PR to get the secondary PR
Secondary PR = 3.18/2.02 = 1.57
Then to get secondary psi work the formula backwards
Secondary psi = (1.57 * 14.7) - 14.7 = 8.3 psi
What this says is that my primary is doing more of the work. Depending on the turbos used you may not want them to share the load equally. In my case I do want my primary to share a little more of the load. Since I am aiming for a total for 50 psi WOT this is what I'm looking for:
Total PR = 4.40
Primary = 2.4 to 2.6 PR range which translates to 20.6psi to 23.5psi on the gauge
Secondary = 1.83 to 1.69 PR range which mean it's putting out 12.2psi to 10.1psi
So to look at it very simply as I'm tuning the spring gate and fueling I am looking for 20-24psi on my primary gauge and about 50psi on my total boost gauge. That will help me know how the turbos are sharing the load at whatever fuel I'm throwing at them.
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