Builds The Trail Snail Build | Above Average Overlandish

[sbman]

Your relay mount solution is creative, but I don't think it's very robust. I'd recommend a relay box to hold them and keep them protected from the elements better. You also need strain relief on each of the wires/tabs coming off of them over time, vibration will work the wires/terminals loose going into the relay and you'll be back to having intermittent issues.

Hella makes an OK little 4 position box:

Amazon.com: HELLA H84988001 4-Way Mini Relay Box Kit: Automotive

Bussman makes a fuse/relay box combo:
http://www.amazon.com/Cooper-Bussma..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0DFNYH13V6XHN63WXSH7

There are plenty of others.

Alternatively if you want to keep them bolted to your plate, use connectors on the bottom of the relays instead of putting terminals directly on them. This will spread the load of vibration evenly on all terminals and is pretty standard relay install practice. You'll need a connector that fits the relays you want to use of course, but something like this:

Amazon.com : Parts Express 12 VDC 5-Pin Relay Socket : Vehicle Amplifier Power And Ground Cables : Car Electronics

You can also get connectors/relays that are weatherproof, which being installed out in the open like that would probably be a good idea or you will have corrosion issues. They aren't the cheapest though:

Amazon.com: JEGS Performance Products 10556 Waterproof Relay & Pigtail 40 Amp: Automotive

 

[SmokingRocks]

Thanks for the input @sbman

Yea the intermittent issues are a separate issue. The PO took his obsession with butt connectors and applied it to various parts of the engine harness. Hence why replacement of the engine harness is Phase 2. I don't claim to be an electrical master as I am not (sure many of you figured that out through my pictures). But I do know how to at least wire things safely.

I had my auxiliary fan relay fail on the trail, which wasn't too bad because the mechanical fan was doing OK. But it took me a while to track down which relay it was (PO installed). So the point of mounting them like this was to consolidate them to one area so they can be labeled or replaced quickly. The bussman box looks cool, guess I didn't know that was out there. The plate isn't that flimsy and its anchored enough to have great support, so its not moving around.

Your comment regarding waterproof relays got me looking around. Can't justify the price though. I've had relays under the hood forever and only had a couple fail and at their price point it's easy to just throw another one in. I'll probably just get the plugs and dielectric grease them to keep water and dirt out of them.

I guess I think its cool even if everyone else looks at it like 'wtf?'

 

[AaronM33]

If you have a cheap junk yard around there are 3 or 4 of those Hella waterproof relays on the top of the firewall of every late 90's S-10/ Blazer. I cut a few off every time I go and have quite a stash now. There's even a mounting bracket you can reuse.

 

[sbman]

Thanks for the input @sbman

Yea the intermittent issues are a separate issue. The PO took his obsession with butt connectors and applied it to various parts of the engine harness. Hence why replacement of the engine harness is Phase 2. I don't claim to be an electrical master as I am not (sure many of you figured that out through my pictures). But I do know how to at least wire things safely.

I had my auxiliary fan relay fail on the trail, which wasn't too bad because the mechanical fan was doing OK. But it took me a while to track down which relay it was (PO installed). So the point of mounting them like this was to consolidate them to one area so they can be labeled or replaced quickly. The bussman box looks cool, guess I didn't know that was out there. The plate isn't that flimsy and its anchored enough to have great support, so its not moving around.

Your comment regarding waterproof relays got me looking around. Can't justify the price though. I've had relays under the hood forever and only had a couple fail and at their price point it's easy to just throw another one in. I'll probably just get the plugs and dielectric grease them to keep water and dirt out of them.

I guess I think its cool even if everyone else looks at it like 'wtf?'

Not to be a downer, but the intermittent issues won't be a separate issue in a few years once vibration and corrosion set in on the relay's terminals, internals and the wiring. The terminals you are using appear to be high quality weather sealed shrink terminals, but they are attached to unsupported wires that will vibrate the relays apart over time. Relays are installed with connectors or housings to prevent those types of failures, especially when bolted to the frame. Vibration is in the frame, and no matter how securely you bolt it down it's going to vibrate.

Put a metal tool from the frame to a solid body part like your teeth while you are driving down a washboard road and see what it feels like (actually don't do that, you'll break a tooth). The wires will be constantly vibrating the terminals with this energy until something fails, possibly intermittently. The PO's relay install would not have failed if it had been done correctly. The rest of it is aesthetics, mount them on a dinner plate or a piece of a guitar, or whatever is cool to you, it doesn't matter, but properly wired and shielded from the weather they will last a long time.

They should be installed with wire movement isolated using a connector instead of individual terminals (connectors are about $2/each) for each relay or a box. They should be covered since they are not weatherproof relays. The wiring should be neatly bundled, loomed and secured for abrasion and vibration induced work-hardening resistance.

Your title says expedition build, several hundred miles of washboard may very well cause one or more of these to fail or a wire to rub through and short out, or a wire to internally break from vibration (very hard to figure out when this happens). Since it looks like you are properly fusing things, it will be an inconvenience and not a disaster, but why not build for a lifetime of service? Just my opinion and experience, YMMV.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Not to be a downer, but the intermittent issues won't be a separate issue in a few years once vibration and corrosion set in on the relay's terminals, internals and the wiring. The terminals you are using appear to be high quality weather sealed shrink terminals, but they are attached to unsupported wires that will vibrate the relays apart over time. Relays are installed with connectors or housings to prevent those types of failures, especially when bolted to the frame. Vibration is in the frame, and no matter how securely you bolt it down it's going to vibrate.

I get what you are saying. If all of the relays that you are referring to failed I would still have a rig that can drive perfectly fine, just no light bars, aux fans and other goodies. It would be an inconvenience and annoyance.

Your advice is well received though. Based on your input I ordered 10 pig tail plugs to clean it up and address some of the vibration issue you are talking about. Once they come in I will install them and finished the loom everything up. I am also going to goop in dielectric grease to mitigate water / debris intrusion.

Last night I did a ton of reading on the subject, tons and tons of people are running basic 'non water proof' relays in the engine bay. Many of those people stated they have pressure washed their engine bay multiple times and never had a failure. Based on that and the $15/ cost of a waterproof relay I'm not going to make that switch at this time, rather I will continue to keep several relay spares in my kit. I mean who's to say that a $15 relay won't fail before a cheapy?

You make a valid comment about making it as robust as possible, thanks.

 

[sbman]

I think I get you, I was only saying you might face intermittent issues with your accessories in the future. Good call on ordering up some pigtails. With some good quality weatherproof butt splices to get into those pigtails and some looming/zip ties, you'll be ahead of the game and everything will look neat and tidy and enjoy long service life. If you fab up a shield under your hood vent or on top of the relays, that should keep the regular water intrusions down.

Even the factory relays in the engine bay are not installed with water proof connectors, but they are oriented top up, connectors down, and covered with a plastic cover so they don't get wet often, and water from underneath isn't likely to happen with their location, so they stay dry in all but the worst conditions.

 

[SmokingRocks]

No more butt connectors on this rig! Its solder and heat shrink only!!!

And yea I am making a diversion plate for the hood vent to keep direct water off the plate.

 

[sbman]

I'm with you on the butt connectors, I don't care for them, especially if you have the skills and tools to solder and shrink. Butt connectors don't have to be the devils work though, good quality ones installed with a good crimper can be just fine. You want the kind with double walled adhesive heat shrink. It looks like the female terminals you are using are of that type.

Double wall adhesive shrink tube over your solder joints is a great idea too.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

No need to be afraid of any crimped connections. I have installed 1000's of butt connector with zero failures. It all in the crimpers, T&B make some of the best hand crimpers available. I have won bets in the past on the wire breaking before the crimp.

As for relays I only use relay on circuits in excess of 15Amp to keep the failure rates to a minimum.

 

[sbman]

No need to be afraid of any crimped connections. I have installed 1000's of butt connector with zero failures. It all in the crimpers, T&B make some of the best hand crimpers available. I have won bets in the past on the wire breaking before the crimp.

A proper crimp yields the metal and it 'flows' together so it's incredibly strong and most importantly 'gas tight' so that air/moisture isn't getting into the middle of the connection and causing corrosion. People that complain about crimp connections aren't doing them right. With the tool you show here, you need to have a strong hand and good technique. With a good quality ratcheting crimper ($60-100) it takes the strength requirement out of the picture and improves repeatability. The T&B tool is a good tool, but beginners will still likely have problems getting a good crimp every time and get a bad taste for crimps.

I wouldn't use any of the $20 and under ratcheting ones though the dies are crap and the ratchet may or may not close to the right spec. Practice with the hand crimper instead a cheapie ratcheting one. Or spend the money on a good ratcheting tool. Molex for $62:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/molex-llc/0640160037/WM9986-ND/821379

A good crimp looks like this when cut away, notice the copper strands are all smashed.

 

[SmokingRocks]

ha thanks for all the info guys!

Yea I have a nice ratcheting crimper and I do have loads of quality heatshrink butt connectors, I just tend to prefer a soldered connection over crimp.

 

[rc51kid]

about your radiator. My fan smashed the shroud into my last radiator out on a trail when i was hard on the gas. I think my mounts were good (about to replace them anyway). But what i did find for sure, is that the after market radiator shroud clips on the bottom did not retain the shroud very well. the OEM one is super tight and pressies holding the shroud. I think on mine the aftermarket radiator was not retaining the shroud well. ANd/or i didnt have it clipped in well. The OEM hold it so much better.

 

[SmokingRocks]

thanks @rc51kid I definitely noticed that with the radiator (Spectra) that got nuked. No matter how I worked the shroud it never fit in the slots perfectly. Now I am guessing that the original radiator that it killed was a result of me not getting the shroud set properly.

The TYC 1918 (koyo copy) had the shroud fit it perfectly. Aside from being advertised as a Koyo and receiving a TYC I am impressed with the quality.

 

[bloc]

So for you and all the guys here doing a lot of wiring.. insulated terminals? or do the crimp with uninsulated then heat-shrink?

No need to be afraid of any crimped connections. I have installed 1000's of butt connector with zero failures. It all in the crimpers, T&B make some of the best hand crimpers available. I have won bets in the past on the wire breaking before the crimp.

 

[SmokingRocks]

I guess you could do either. I use 'waterproof' heat shrink connectors for all my crimp connections, you pay more for them but IMO they are better quality. I try to use insulated terminals on 12v supplies when I can.

 

[hamishpotter]

It is so worth the trouble. No more herding sheep.

Just reading through this thread. Great work @SmokingRocks. I've been contemplating changing from caster bushings to caster plates. I have OME 2.5" mediums and may add spacers. The bushings have always seemed an odd work-around / counterintuitive. You guys prefer caster plates over bushings? I'm sure this is covered extensively elsewhere but could not resist chiming in

 

[SmokingRocks]

At 2.5" the bushings are fine. I think I am at 3.5-4" of lift on the PO's springs and spacer set up and it was dreadful to drive. It would bump steer all over the place, it was not fun to drive at speed. I thought there were other problems perhaps in the steering box. I looked at the front LCA's and noticed the bushing at the frame mounts were completely shot so I decided to take the leap and press the old out and do the castor plate.

Don't order from duiser, they have the cheapest plates. I ordered over the phone before I realized they were from duiser, called dustin to get an ETA and he answered the first time stated he was just about to get them back from the powder coater and I should have them by mid feb. Have not seen them, have not been able to get a hold of him. Ordered slee's because I was tired of waiting, they showed up next day and I installed them same day.

Still trying to get my money back from duiser.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Question to all:

Is it ok to buy an OE distributor cap and rotor? or should I stick with OEM on this?

its easy to replace if it doesn't work but am unsure if there have been issues with OE replacements.

 

[hamishpotter]

@SmokingRocks: At 2.5" the bushings are fine. I think I am at 3.5-4" of lift on the PO's springs and spacer set up and it was dreadful to drive. It would bump steer all over the place, it was not fun to drive at speed. I thought there were other problems perhaps in the steering box. I looked at the front LCA's and noticed the bushing at the frame mounts were completely shot so I decided to take the leap and press the old out and do the castor plate.

Don't order from duiser, they have the cheapest plates. I ordered over the phone before I realized they were from duiser, called dustin to get an ETA and he answered the first time stated he was just about to get them back from the powder coater and I should have them by mid feb. Have not seen them, have not been able to get a hold of him. Ordered slee's because I was tired of waiting, they showed up next day and I installed them same day.

Still trying to get my money back from duiser.

Thanks for the advice. So if I add 1" spacers up front I will consider going with plates.

I've learned from experience and many threads to try to avoid Duiser. They did get me my universal recovery brackets - 3 months after I ordered them : ) @sleeoffroad has great service, and quality I've found.

Keep up the good work!

J

 

[sbman]

Thanks for the advice. So if I add 1" spacers up front I will consider going with plates.

I've learned from experience and many threads to try to avoid Duiser. They did get me my universal recovery brackets - 3 months after I ordered them : ) @sleeoffroad has great service, and quality I've found.

Keep up the good work!

J

I'm running 1" spacers and stock height springs and the ride/drive is fine, no bump steer or other oddities. The caster is off though, when I had it at the alignment shop it was quite a bit out of spec. It looked like it would be out of spec no matter what though, even with just the stock OEM springs.