BEB's JUST IN TIME?

[Cruisin']

you don't need to replace the bearings and con rods just to drop the caps and take a look.

it is just a dirty job is all. i never own a truck long enough to care to recheck but IF i did then i would each 20th oil change just for s***s and giggles.

I do plan on keeping my rig that long, so maybe when I get close to 200,000 I will drop the pan and check the bearings. I'll make sure a local supplier has the bearings in stock before I start though... Just in case the result is what I'm NOT expecting!

Heck, at the 200,000 mark I'll be in there doing the timing belt and sundry other stuff too, so why not get some oil in my eyes while I'm at it.

I'll post up the results in a year or so.

 

[Dave 2000]

Dave 2 euros !! thats almost 1 million USB.

I agree that a back flow check valve is the best way for preventing dry starts short of having primers (as in stand-by APU's) . My 3b has the Vac pump oil system and piston cooling valves / squirters . Im sure that also lets the draining somewhat . I will be doing away with that vac system .

Im happy with the time of pressure build up with the system i have so far. since i have a real gauge , the needle pegs 5bar cold much quicker with a Euro filter.
Im just experimenting on one of the few 3Bs i have. When i go to redo the inners and guts , then i will make sure that the best testing parts are installed.

PM sent.


VT

Have you considered just for a moment that the filtering medium is not as fine as an OE version? It is just a thought but a for example 5 micron filter will show pressure in the galleries before say a 2 micron filter. This would go some way to explaining why your aftermarket filter shows pressure more quickly however, it may be filtering less.

Perhaps we should start sawing filters in half and measuring the filter element specs? Be warned though, someone tried this a few years back and got all sorts of threats for posting the results.

regards

Dave

 

[northernrighty]

Threats from who? Is there a Big Oil rep on here spying on us?

 

[VTCDN]

I couldn't give a flying pig of what someone thinks or threats , that must be another good story..
In North America anyone may purchase brake pads to rebuild kits for master cyls / callipers etc.
They don't even have to know the basics of lefty loosy to righty tighty to purchase this and then send the death car out.Some even bill for this type of so called work..
100 -12Gage shells 19.95,shooter 59.90 , 6pack 2.99, organic aspirin 14.95 plus = Priceless weekend.!

Let's see if you could purchase a gutter box for power (electrical industrial power division) without a valid licence (IBEW) , Or dental / medical tools without the correct paper hanging somewheres. Everyone is a MASTER ASE / AME ? Pick a flavour, (Till your in court being paid).


Here were just having a discussion of the brg's failure , that has been going on since ??(guessing here 1989-93) and NO one has thought about some of the things that were brought up on this thread.
Replacement of the brgs is a total repair , or ??

Now back to my Dreaming !!!

This line is not valid ""It is just a thought but a for example 5 micron filter will show pressure in the galleries before say a 2 micron filter.""

Now no pressure will show till a restriction has been felt , the more clearance in a shaft to brg has more flow and less pressure. the micron of a ""OIL"" filter {around 25 }(not the same rules for fuel filters) will make no real measurable difference due to bypass flow pressure is set at 1bar for the yota stock one,anti drain back valve is 70kpa or .7 bar (all my numbers are for my 3b only , cuz thats all i looked up) and my so called aftermarket one that is OEM on the Swede silver bullet Mann(3517857 Volvo) is 1.1 bar bypass pressure , and the back flow check is 1bar (1Bar is 14.50377 psig)..
So the oil galley pressure sensor for my gauge is after the filter and should read the exact same as the crankshaft throw brgs are seeing or less than 1% line loss , due that if no to little restriction , the oil pressure gauge won't respond till it See's restriction and pressure builds till the overpressure relief valve opens(just under 4.5bar cold). Microns on bypassing filters are NOT in the equation . If the OIL filter was like a fuel filter and NO bypass , then it would have a point on pressure, but sensing on a galley after the filtration factor , thats out.

As with looking into cutting and measuring ?? Why , just look up the real stuff.

Quality products post them with INTERNATIONAL testing standards.
SI, ACEA , HTHS, and API for North America.

Mann, Hengst ,Mahle, Knighte , all are filter manufactures for euros through Audi-Volvo and the ones inbetween there spelling , and BMW use all those between there models.

I have sent a few PIX of the brgs posted here to gents i know. There i have heard from a few , who ask if it was an old guy who started it once a year.
We spoke of the todate 3.2L Fomoco unit that is bearing less and has galled itself to death , after an improper service work. then we went back to the 90's that some new white engines (all aluminum ) had craping rod brgs from a few items . Poor spec'ed oil , to crappy oil filters that had zip for anti back flow valves . They(filters) were all shades of colour. Now Warranty would kick in to the consumer if , all service work was done at the branded car franchiser , and the records showed that . The owner was given a replacement new car to drive while the engine was repaired to the point of replacement..

Some see a red oil light on and just drive it back !! Cell phones were not as common as now.

So as with myself , the Tech-reps feel that this style of damage is from poor viscous oil films left after a hot shut down(crap oil) and the point that early aluminum brgs have the worst fluid retention or the amount of porosity to retain oil.

I also have be under bonnets / blouses , now with a walker
If i find the brg books i'll see if i can post a picture lay up of them. = nope had a quick look , dreaming fart , left them years ago where they were needed.
Filter reading .
More on Micron :
Its in the reading!!

An NA quick read :Particle size retention


EDit , Well this ain't my engine , so good luck on trying to see an end of the problem.

Plus theres some great reading on metallurgy with the different type of aluminum, tin and silicon or copper/lead combinations for the Bearing material . From the manufactures , not hear-say forums.


VT

PS im sticking with ~~~ is worth what you paid me for it.

http://www.european-motorsport.com/community/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=14703

 

[Dave 2000]

Well the guy was serious about an oil filter discussion as far as I can tell. He posted up pics of different oil filters he had:

Measured, dismantled, measured the filter medium, how good the quality was of construction, number of filter medium pleats ect a real deep analysis of just oil filters, if it could be commented on he would. There was pages of statistics giving pretty much every brand name a yes or a no, this analysis was backed by photographs and videos ect and then all of a sudden he was getting threats from 'whoever' and they (assuming to him) were getting very serious, there was talk of law suits and it got very nasty and they either frightened him or paid him either way he packed it in AFAIK. The time that this guy put in was incredible, if I knew of where there was a copy I would put it up, also to be fair to your 'aftermarket' filters they were NOT all at the bottom of the list with one or two showing good results, I will keep an eye out for a copy.

With regards 'reading up' instead of 'cutting up', perhaps you have seen the penis enlargement adverts?

DON'T BELIEVE ALL THAT YOU READ!! It didn't work for me......oops should I have said that?

With regards to your comments about oil pressure ect none of your figures about pressure build up are valid UNLESS the oil has passed through the filter right? So if that is the case pressure would build up faster if the oil has got through the filter and reached the area of restriction (creating pressure) quicker then yes you will see a response on your gauge quicker. Of course it could be argued that a finer filter will slow down the time taken to achieve pressure so it could be a double edged sword with wear taking place. The comments on pressure relief valve are only valid on a cold engine, once an engine reaches temperature the bypass valve is rarely activated unless the engine is like new or doing serious RPM's and even then still unlikely.

regards

Dave

 

[crushers]

Oil Filters Revealed - MiniMopar Resources
Air Filtration Test
Bob Is The Oil Guy - Forums powered by UBB.threads™

 

[Radd Cruisers]

I have not seen clear answers in any forums or archives of conversations on this issue from Oz and Europe which answer my questions. I'll outline it here:

2) Yes, there are folks in Oz checking and replacing the bearings at 100,000km intervals. (Don't know if what brand bearings they are using is being tracked or listed).

3) In Oz, there were a number replaced by Toyota when the issue started showing up (from what I understand...if you knew about the problem, showed them the paperwork and had impeccable maintenance) and as Toyota did the replacement they were likely using factory Toyota bearings, in which they said they had "fixed" the problems.

My understanding of the bearing replacements that Toyota did under warranty in Australia - they used ACL bearings as the OEM replacements. I have had several long conversations about this very topic with techs in Australia...

4) I have not seen reports that say if the replaced bearings which were replaced again at 100,000kms are using the "reworked" Toyota supplied Tin/Aluminum connecting rod bearings, or using the ACL Duraglide Copper/Lead bearings.

ACL Duraglides were used in the warranty work from all the information that I have received. Other manufacturers made rod bearings that are a fine replacement, such as Taiho (Japan).

There have been a number of ideas floated as to the cause of the issue: Crank harmonics, non-JDM grade oils, bad oiling, and bad bearing composition.

hth's

gb

The type of oil and/or the additive package of various oils has been discussed numerous times. I personally do not believe that any of the older formulations of engine oil really made any difference to the premature failure of some rod bearings. There has been at least one very technical article posted online that discussed the failure of these bearings - the bearing material failure is due primarily to cavitation of the oil that happens at certain RPM (frequency) ranges. These RPM ranges just happen to coincide with the kinds of RPM one might expect at regular highway speeds (in the 2200 rpm range if memory serves correctly). The cavitation is also apparent in the DI version of the engine and not in the IDI version of the engine, and that is evidenced by the fact that, although the 1HZ has the same bearings, they are rarely problematic in that application.

At the shop level we use both Amsoil products and Shell Rotella T. Some of the Amsoil additive packages are very similar to Japanese additive packages, and Shell Rotella T uses a traditional additive package that is far better than some newer (gasoline) engine formulations for wear protection. Virtually all gasoline engine oils have been stripped of anti-wear additives that had been used in the past as they are known to clog up emissions systems (the removal of things like Zn is due to emissions control regulations).

Newer oils that are designed for gasoline engines should not be used in diesel engines. Stick to a good name brand oil that is recognized as having a traditional additive package that will work with older engines.

There are a still a few people around who just don't want to believe that the BEBs are an issue. The reality is that for many engines, failure of the bearings may never occur. If a failure does occur, then you go from doing a $600 maintenance procedure to an expensive fix of the bottom end.

adding this:

In response to Dougal's information: if one was to use the same bearings in the repair process, the same type of problem would recur. The FT and FTE engines are 24Valve and have will have different harmonics in the bottom end. As the problem of bearing degradation was shown to be related to oil film breakdown/cavitation at certain frequencies, then by altering the design of the engine such as by using a 24V head, then you have reduced the likelihood of the problem occurring again.


~John

 

[VTCDN]

My understanding of the bearing replacements that Toyota did under warranty in Australia - they used ACL bearings as the OEM replacements. I have had several long conversations about this very topic with techs in Australia...



ACL Duraglides were used in the warranty work from all the information that I have received. Other manufacturers made rod bearings that are a fine replacement, such as Taiho (Japan).




The type of oil and/or the additive package of various oils has been discussed numerous times. I personally do not believe that any of the older formulations of engine oil really made any difference to the premature failure of some rod bearings. There has been at least one very technical article posted online that discussed the failure of these bearings - the bearing material failure is due primarily to cavitation of the oil that happens at certain RPM (frequency) ranges. These RPM ranges just happen to coincide with the kinds of RPM one might expect at regular highway speeds (in the 2200 rpm range if memory serves correctly). The cavitation is also apparent in the DI version of the engine and not in the IDI version of the engine, and that is evidenced by the fact that, although the 1HZ has the same bearings, they are rarely problematic in that application.

At the shop level we use both Amsoil products and Shell Rotella T. Some of the Amsoil additive packages are very similar to Japanese additive packages, and Shell Rotella T uses a traditional additive package that is far better than some newer (gasoline) engine formulations for wear protection. Virtually all gasoline engine oils have been stripped of anti-wear additives that had been used in the past as they are known to clog up emissions systems (the removal of things like Zn is due to emissions control regulations).

Newer oils that are designed for gasoline engines should not be used in diesel engines. Stick to a good name brand oil that is recognized as having a traditional additive package that will work with older engines.

There are a still a few people around who just don't want to believe that the BEBs are an issue. The reality is that for many engines, failure of the bearings may never occur. If a failure does occur, then you go from doing a $600 maintenance procedure to an expensive fix of the bottom end.

adding this:

In response to Dougal's information: if one was to use the same bearings in the repair process, the same type of problem would recur. The FT and FTE engines are 24Valve and have will have different harmonics in the bottom end. As the problem of bearing degradation was shown to be related to oil film breakdown/cavitation at certain frequencies, then by altering the design of the engine such as by using a 24V head, then you have reduced the likelihood of the problem occurring again.


~John

Kewl ..

cavitation of oil systems . Now were 2002 problem .
TTT


VT

 

[Dave 2000]

Oil Filters Revealed - MiniMopar Resources
Air Filtration Test
Bob Is The Oil Guy - Forums powered by UBB.threads™

Thanks for that crushers, the oil filter could well be the one I was thinking of but it is a few years now. However, IIRC there were a lot more filters tested ect, if this is the one then the 'tone' of the article has been softened and I did not notice any threat issues that were in the article I read. Clearly the article has been seriously edited and many filters have been removed.

Thanks again for taking the time to find it.

regards

Dave

 

[crushers]

took a minute on Google, i remembered this discussion a few years back and (i think) Greg B posted this one up.
with my ADD issues, i gleaned that purolator plus and toyota own brand were good and Fram was bad. that was all i remembered.

change your oil every 5000 km, run a good filter, done.

my concern with todays LC owners is the rash of blokes that are extending their oil changes to 10K, 15K, even as high as 20K ... if you have an issue that creeps up at 5K and you are running that engine on the same oil till 20K ... well ... how do you know? till it is too late?

as with most discussions, i will read what others post up and make up my own "old school" mind about it. one old timer told me, "sonny, it doesn't matter what oil you run. just make sure the damn thing has oil in it and change the stuff every 3000 miles".

since his engines seem to last as long as he did, i will put my money into his advice over the high mileage advice on the interweb.

enjoy.

 

[northernrighty]

HMMM? maybe I can get a 24 valve head? Anyone do this?

 

[gerg]

I wouldn't waste too much time about the best full flow oil filter. Even the best quality ones cant compare to some basic cheap ass bypass filter set ups. I run the cheapest full flow to catch the catastrophic sized particles and a bypass for the stuff around 1 micron or so.

Why do these bearing suck so bad anyhow?? I would moly coat them before install and run a good additive package, like moly and zink, as normal oil isnt doing the job it seems. It would be even better to moly coat the crank if you could, as in during a rebuild.
g

 

[Radd Cruisers]

as with most discussions, i will read what others post up and make up my own "old school" mind about it. one old timer told me, "sonny, it doesn't matter what oil you run. just make sure the damn thing has oil in it and change the stuff every 3000 miles".

since his engines seem to last as long as he did, i will put my money into his advice over the high mileage advice on the interweb.

enjoy.

Maybe true then, but not true today.

Old school oil formulations were chock full of stuff that was good for engines and terrible for the environment. Now that most gasoline engine oils have been stripped of some of the most effective ant-wear agents, you need to be looking at what's in the oil you're using.

Now, if it's oil vs no oil, then that is a totally different situation. I prefer to use oil


~John

 

[Dave 2000]

change your oil every 5000 km, run a good filter, done.

That works for me.........and has done since I started 'fiddling' with cars, first car at 11 years old, it was a semi seized straight 6 Zephyr

regards

Dave

 

[gerg]

You are right John that modern oils have been "stripped" of their additives. The guy that ground my cam said, that over the last several years, he has seen terrible wear accross the board on cams and lifters from all makes and types, especially the flat tappet style as they are especially vulnerable. This would include stock cams as well as high performance. He was adamant that I run, at the very least, a good quality zink additive as modern oil have only a fraction of the zink older oils had. Who knows what else they are lacking.
I use AC Delco.
g

 

[Squash]

I'm bored....so here's some fuel!

Since the 1HZ and HZ81 share the same bearings with the HDJ81 why do we not hear to much from these guys?

Not to often we an HZ bearing set go and our HZ's are driven HARD.

Far as I can tell same part numbers.

 

[Dougal]

In response to Dougal's information: if one was to use the same bearings in the repair process, the same type of problem would recur. The FT and FTE engines are 24Valve and have will have different harmonics in the bottom end. As the problem of bearing degradation was shown to be related to oil film breakdown/cavitation at certain frequencies, then by altering the design of the engine such as by using a 24V head, then you have reduced the likelihood of the problem occurring again.


~John

I don't beleive the harmonics causing cavitation is the cause. Put simply if they had a harmonics problem at cruising rpm then they would be breaking cranks continually.
Cavitation only occurs under vacuum, it is basically oil being sucked to vapour, then imploding back to liquid. I don't think that is the cause for two reasons, there's no source of negative pressue and we'd be seeing far more damage if that was the case.

To me it looks like subsurface fatigue, insufficient oil pressure at the bearing for the loads encountered would do that. This fits with 1HZ's not having the same issue unless turbocharged and it also fits with the later 4 valve engines with their redesigned lower ends not having the same issue.

 

[gerg]

So maybe these guys should just run some really good oils with high film strength? I specifically chose amsoil 15-40 synthetic because its film strength was the highest I could find in a commonly available oil. Although, I haven't read any specs on Royal Purple or Redline yet.
g

 

[Dougal]

So maybe these guys should just run some really good oils with high film strength? I specifically chose amsoil 15-40 synthetic because its film strength was the highest I could find in a commonly available oil. Although, I haven't read any specs on Royal Purple or Redline yet.
g

That would help wear, but I'm thinking a thicker oil in general will help. You need to cushion the crank movements to stop fatigue.

 

[crushers]

when i turbo the 1HZ i change out the BEB to be safe. i have yet to see any unusual wear on the HZ bearings. i have been suspecting it is the turbo that is causing the concerns on the early HDT engines.
maybe
just maybe
it might have something to do with the oil going through the turbo ...

nah, that doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm bored....so here's some fuel!

Since the 1HZ and HZ81 share the same bearings with the HDJ81 why do we not hear to much from these guys?

Not to often we an HZ bearing set go and our HZ's are driven HARD.

Far as I can tell same part numbers.