Theorycraft - V8 swap on an EXTREME Budget (1 Viewer)

[gregnash]

So as some of you have seen I have noted in my build thread for BeBe that I am starting my research on a V8 swap for her. Looking around between here and many other sites like TTORA, ExpeditionPortal, Pirate4x4, etc. I have found lots and lots of build threads with great information but not one real clear and concise theory crafting thread to hash out some of the details...

If you talk to most guys like Georg (@orangefj45) who do this for a living you will find that following:
- V8 swaps have great benefits but can be heavy on the pocket book depending on LOTS of variables such as the type of engine you go with.
- Can be done by someone that has probably mechanical skills and hopefully some fab skills (we will say to )
- Really have two options: TBI v8 (think late 80s to early 90s truck) or Vortec (late 90s to current)
- The main purpose of doing a V8 for most is the extra power, drivevability and EFI (well for those of us with 60s that is)
- Will range from starting around $10k to $$$$$$ depending on the variables again

And believe me, if I weren't so cheap and had the money to throw at it I would take it to Georg and be done with it. Unfortunately, I do not have the money but time is something that I can come up with to do what I need and I have the community to rely on here along with friends that have mechanical skills that I do not.

DISCLAIMER: This is no way dissuading by ANY MEANS what Georg, NCFJ, Kurt, TorFab, AAC or the like do. They do incredible work that I continually have to wipe my keyboard off because of the drool. The skills that these guys have is phenomenal and the persistence to do this and take the leap into doing it for a living is great. Knowing what I know about being a small business owner, my hat goes off to you for this. I only wish I had the money to line your wallets with a build like this. Alas I am a poor state worker so I have to do this on an EXTREMELY tight budget but send my money those guys way as much as I can.

Again, so here I am doing research to figure out just exactly I am going to get myself into. Well figured I might as well put down my thoughts for everyone and HOPE that it all turns out alright.

BACKSTORY:
As many of you know, I picked up BeBe some three years ago now (actually 3yrs ago on last sunday) and she has been the source of many frustrations but 10 fold as many memories and smiles. I constantly tell people that not matter what, no matter what kind of day I am having, there are three things that can put a smile on my face very VERY easily..... taking BeBe out for a drive, riding my mtb hard and my wife doing what she does best to calm my ever vigilant analytical mind.

Well I brought BeBe home with a few more issues than I anticipated but with the great help of this community, customer service of guys like Georg who had no issue sitting on the phone with me and talking me through things and good friends I have been able to conquer most or have the plan in the works.

So about 10 months ago I noticed on an oil change that BeBe was starting to burn a bit more oil and smoking a little more than normal. Did some troubleshooting but never really found any issues. Finally got some appropriate tires for her and was on my way. Well I have a normal fishing spot that I go to that is 5 miles up an old fire service road. It is not maintained by anyone and in many sections is completely chewed up and loose. One particular section is pretty steep too, I mean like I can feel myself leaning forward a bit steep. Well she never had a problem with this section until that day, she just couldn't quite get up it. After some prodding I finally got her up it. Now mind you I have NEVER had to use 4L but this was one of those times I was thinking that it might need to be utilized. Well give or take another handful of trips with the same results, just barely being able to get up in 4H and I am wondering what is going on.

Couple trips to camping sites and up to Lake Tahoe and I am noticing she is having a bit harder a time pulling the hills. Mind you not enough to make me worry that something serious is going on but enough to scratch my head a bit and the analyst to kick in. Well about a month ago I try to take my nephew up to the fishing spot that he has accompanied me to multiple times. Lo and behold this time it ain't happening. No matter what we do I cannot get her up the steep section. I thought about throwing it into 4L but decided not to because of a couple reasons being: 1) this is steep fireroad and only barely wide enough to fit the truck, 2) we are 3 to 3.5 miles from the nearest road which means that it would be a long walk back, and 3) it is quite the drop on my nephews side should we have issues.

I reluctantly flip her into reverse and back down a short ways to a spot where I can turn around, tell my nephew I am sorry (he is 14 so he is in the in-between stage where he is not sure if this is "cool" or not) and we head home. Of course, the entire time we are headed down I am talking it through with him on what might be the problem, how to source the issue and what not. Trying to get him to "think" but also just talking it through on my own. We get home and do other things and still have a fun day but my mind is spinning.

About 3 weeks later I do an oil change on BeBe and when I am pouring out the old oil into my bucket I notice that while the oil is not overly dark (I normally change every 4-6 months) it has a bit of a shimmer to it. Well that shimmer is actually metal flakes, one of which is large enough that I can see it and feel it is swirled and probably a good couple millimeters long.. @$*%&!

 

[gregnash]

DETAILS:
So with that I thought to myself, well it is time. She has been having a harder and harder time, I know full well that I would eventually do an engine swap (was really hoping for a Toyota diesel but will get into that after) and it seems like that eventually has finally hit.

The plan for this thread it so post up some Pros and Cons of doing a Vortec vs. TBI swap into our beloved Land Cruisers but ultimately this will be handled from an extreme budget perspective. Now when I say extreme budget I mean as minimal as possible.
This means:
- utilize what I currently have that IS good (e.g. no replacing the drivetrain)
- source good parts as cheaply as possible (e.g. look at those salvage companies that may offer extended warranties on their products)
- source used where ever possible
- ultimately engine will be a junkyard build or donor vehicle pull where possible
- do as LITTLE fab work of parts/items as possible

The goal of this build will be to breathe new life into BeBe (and possibly your Land Cruiser) with an updated heart that will have EASY parts to find just about anywhere, get decent fuel economy, add something half of us DONT have.... EFI AND be sustainable via the budget set forth.

So budget will be set at a MAX of $5k in mind, with the understanding that I am shooting for less than $3k. Yes $3k when something like the Ranger Overdrive costs $1600 new (which is actually more than I paid for BeBe but then again I drive around with a mtb on top that is worth probably $4k).

Now I know there are those of you that are saying.... "Why not throw another known good 2F in there ?" or "Why not throw a 3FE in her?".... well the reason behind the V8 swap is simple, 60series parts are starting to get harder and harder to get a hold of (especially with guys like @beno buying them all up for his super duper stocker build!!!) and will only continue to get harder. While the V8, especially the TBI, is a common swap the main premise is that it is a a powerplant that is well known in the US and many other areas and has aftermarket support GALORE.

Believe me the above realization was probably the hardest for the Toyota elitist in me to deal with but ultimately, for me, the numbers and analysis pointed me to it continually. I think I drank far too many beers after that realization, how could I taint my poor Toyota with an american made heart! BASTARDS!!!! Well, again the information pointed me to;
1. it is widely accepted in the US
2. stock parts are EVERYWHERE!
3. aftermarket support is dime a dozen
4. (and this was hard to swallow) there are many proven results saying that the engine is not the problem with most GM products

So back to the research and figuring out how the hell I am going to do this and what is needed. This of course started the perpetual internal debate.... If you are going V8 why not just go Vortec?

Pros and Cons: Vortec vs. TBI 350
So with some time on my hands in the evenings I started doing my research. It quickly became apparent that Vortec actually HAD a "Gen I" that was really part of the TBI family (at least the way I look at it) so they can technically be part of each other. However, the Gen I Vortec (95-2000) had some inherent issues that caused them to not be so well liked.
TBI had been used in some way, shape or form since the mid 80s and in some applications before that up until about 95 and even past in some cars. Most all TBI/TPI are considered tappet cam engines where the Vortec started out as Roller cam. The later model TBI had the ability to be retro-fitted with roller cams and from what I can tell there were even a few cars that the 5.7L was offered in that came with roller cams vs. the tappet.

Why am I getting into this, well from what I can tell you really want to stay away from the Gen I Vortec because of those few inherent problems. If you are going Vortec you will see little gain from going with a Gen I vs. a II/III or even IV. So if you have the money to go Vortec get the newest version you can, most will start out (5.3L) stock with ~320hp and 335ft/lb torque.

Conversely the TBI really only had a couple other versions as GM started to add technology. There is TBI (throttle body injection) and TPI (tune port injection). Both are good but TBI was found mainly in trucks/vans/etc. where as the TPI was found in most cars like the Corvette. The horsepower and torque of the 5.7L TBI found in most of the trucks was somewhere in the range of ~200hp and ~300ft/lbs torque depending on the year, make and model of the truck this seems to vary.

Ok I am sure that I got some of that wrong but seems a good approximation of:
- TBI = ~200hp/300ftlbs torque
- Vortec (Gen II+) = ~300hp/330ftlbs torque
So going to a Vortec would give a pretty significant power gain but at the cost of extra money (normally) and furthered technology addition through more sensors and whatnot. This in and of itself creates its own conundrum of the couple of banana difference. Can the both be done by someone with decent mechanical skills, absolutely but costs will more than likely be pretty significantly different not to mention the issues that you MAY have to deal with going through electrical gremlins. Added with that you get into the gremlins of the OBD I vs. OBD II/III requirements depending on the engine and now you can see where it starts to be that the guys like Georg really do not make enough for doing these swaps.

Those troubleshooting headaches for me are almost enough to make me just want to ride my bike everywhere for the rest of my life!!!!

So back to the pros and cons part... well it really comes down to one real pro/con for the two against one another... simplicity of installation for the AVERAGE shade tree mechanic... and for that the TBI definitely wins out.

EDIT: not more than an hour into my build and everyone is raving "GO VORTEC!!!" LOL
And lots and lots of votes for go Vortec. Well hopefully this thread will help "show the way" I realized that going into this I have been looking at the simplest solution that will have the least "gremlins" and modifications needed to start off. A lot of this really comes down to the ability of the person, where they are willing to compromise and heading from there. Ultimately with the TBI you are installing an AT LEAST 20yr old engine in your truck, if not older. Where as with the Vortec you can potentially install a few year old engine. What I am seeing is that many of the Vortecs that are being offered have the same mileage as some of the TBI.. so really that is a debate in and of itself.

To Vortec or not to Vortec - where mileage is equal but age of engine is not, does that necessarily mean that the "newer" engine is going to be better? Cost is definitely going to be more for the Vortec and there are quite a few more electronics to deal with but many have posted about the 2-wire and 3-wire mods so that is something for the builder to take into account.

 

[gregnash]

The Build:

So here is where I am going to hopefully be able to start keeping everything from this point on. This will hopefully open up some good discussions on what parts to use, why, when to replace things, the benefits of going with a remanufactured crate block vs. a junkyard engine, etc...

For me this build is starting as of the end of this year, I will be slowly gathering parts as I do more research and determine what I want to do. Again, the ultimate goal is to keep this as cheap as possible with a list for future guys like me who want to do this on a budget..

Here is where I want to discuss:
- Engine (build vs. buy and if buying where are some good places to go. Past that what to look for in something like a donor pull or junkyard engine)
- Drivetrain (this is what everyone debates about, but with looking to keep costs cheap what is going to be best)
- Adapters (these will be needed so hopefully put together some information on who offers what (as of the date of this threads completion)
- Fuel management (what to do and what is needed exactly, and most of all what parts are useable from our 60s)
- Gauges (what to do and what can be held over)
- Exhaust (more of a personal preference and based on your local emissions laws but what can be done, what seems to be the most optimal routing, heated vs. stock O2 sensors, etc.)
- Computer (this is definitely needed but what is out there, is there mods available, etc.)
- Wiring harness (same as computer but for this one is there benefits, aside from cost, of going with an aftermarket vs. modifying the stock)
- Modifications (lastly this is something that needs to be discussed)
- Build directory and helpful websites (pretty self explanatory)

So for modifications from the list above what I am talking about pertains to the Donor or Junkyard pull. What are those items that should be replaced not matter what? What are some items that are on that "Yeah probably want to take care of that" or "Yeah that is a maintenance item and it doesn't look new so might as well". Ultimately these items are going to be those that help with the longevity and sustainability of the engine in its new platform.

Most that will be doing this swap plan to keep their trucks for a long time so while this is an extreme budget build it will be also an investment. So those items that should be modified or replaced with new upon receipt of the engine and prior to installation, well this is where I would like to discuss. Ultimately as I get more information I will break each of those sections out into a post and link it.

 

[gregnash]

Engine:
So let's start here.. Build vs. Buy. I have received good information from a very knowledgeable source that believes if you are going to do this that one of the best things you can do is buy a remanufactured block with a few of the accessories for cheap from somewhere like Summit Racing and then throw used parts on it from eBay, Craigslist and the junkyard. This is referring mainly to the Long Block variety that can easily be found on Summit simply by going through their filter tool to a 5.7L/350 GM engine.

Build - So what all are you going to need? Well that depends on what you are looking at doing with the engine. One of the main benefits of the 5.7L TBI 350 is that, much like our venerable 2F, it has great low end torque and is not meant to be a high revving engine. So you will feel the power gain right off the bat when releasing the clutch and hitting the throttle. By looking at the sort you will see that a reman'd engine block will run you between $1500 and $3500 and then more for more "complete" performance engines.

So going with the Vin Code K engine (and here is a link for showing what those vin codes mean) you will see you are looking at $1700 for the block, heads, valve covers, oil pan, harmonic balancer and timing cover and that is it. The bare bones of the engine. Engine comes complete. Only items needed to transfer or buy are intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust manifolds and accessories. This is where you get to decide what you want new or used and what types of accessories you want (e.g. higher output alternator, smog pump, air conditioning, etc.)

One thing to note on doing an engine like this is that depending on what VIN code engine you get you have to ensure you are putting the right distributor on it. There is a small and a large cap distributor and only one will fit. For the VIN code K I believe it is the small cap.

Buy - You have to look at doing something like purchasing a known good engine from a salvage group. Now many of these places offer some sort of warranty. My suggestion is that you CALL AND TALK TO THEM. Make sure that you find out what is and IS NOT covered under their warranty. For instance, I found www.lowmileageparts.com to have a good amount of available engines for all TBI applications (dating back to the 80s) in stock and ready to ship. Now they ship with everything except the computer and harness, ok that is fine with some of the other posts coming up we will compile information on the different computers (aftermarket and junkyard) and wiring harnesses available. With these guys it seems you can ask them to include the wiring harness and computer from your vehicle of choice for a small up charge. They even show that they have free shipping to a commercial address or business address, caveat as long as they can accept delivery from a tractortrailer otherwise if liftgate service is necessary at the business address add $200+, if delivering to a residential with liftgate add another $100+. Oh yeah and they boast all over their site about a 5yr warranty, but reading the fine print you see that really means that the original engine requires receipt with all THEIR markings still visible AND it has to go into an exact same make/model vehicle.. So for me this would be a no go unless they had a real low mileage vehicle.

There are plenty of other salvage yards out there, gearheads.com, nnawg.com, etc. that will pull from their inventory. Again some off extra warranty off the bat and some offer the ability to purchase an extended warranty. Then there is also the core charge, so you might see a REAL cheap price on a nice, low mileage engine only to find that the company charges a $300+ core charge. Moral of the story is, definitely pay close attention to WHO you are potentially purchasing from and then give them a call so you full understand what you are getting.

Outside of that you have two other options; Donor vehicle purchase or "you pull it" purchase from a wrecking yard. Basically, these are going to be your two highest risk engines. Why you might ask? Well, these are the ones that you have the least information from. Say you DO end up going with a Vortec engine and you use someone like BDTurnkey.com (incredibly knowledgeable and fairly priced), well with them you get a carfax report of the vehicle as well as the salvage report so that you know exactly what happened to the vehicle so there is no guess. Plus, BD also goes in and runs the engine to ensure it is working properly, will take care of any necessary items that may need fixing (within reason) and will even program the engine for you as you may need (within reason). This is normally coupled in their charge caveat being that he requires a charge up front and he does not "stock" the engines so you will have a bit of a waiting time. Normal cost for a 5.3L Vortec will be around $2k for the engine and everything but that will depend on the mileage vehicle he is able to get you, so could be more could be less.

Back to the other options....
Donor vehicle where you go, can see it run (possibly) and pull the engine there or you buy the entire vehicle. This can be the most cost effective approach as then you will not have to worry about the dreaded "oh crap I forgot to grab XYZ module" or whatever. This you have the vehicle in your possession, possibly for a cheap price, and you will not have to worry about random missing odds and ends. Bad part is that you will have the vehicle in your possession and will have to worry about storage and what not. Now if you are quick and ready to go when you get the vehicle to your place then you may be able to swap the motor and drivetrain over (if doing the drivetrain as well) in a short period of time and either sell off the rest to salvage for scrap or part it out and possibly make some money back. Bad part is again, you have the vehicle in your possession so you have to worry about that kind of thing.

Salvage yard pull is probably the riskiest out of all of them but can be the cheapest by far. For instance, my local Pick N Pull has PLENTY of early 90s trucks/vans on hand that have been recently added to their inventory. According to the local pricing list you are looking at about $250 for the engine assembly (which will require a new oilpan) and then a small chunk of change after that for the random other accessories that may not be attached to the assembly (e.g. computer, wiring harness, etc.). The accessories really kinda relies on your local yard and what THEY feel is part of the assembly so some may charge you for it some may not. This is the riskiest pull because you know next to nothing about the engine, what happened to the vehicle for it to end up there, etc. Recommendations by MANY sites is that while the payoff can be high (finding a pristine low mileage vehicle that simply had the tranny go or was rear ended) it is HIGHLY recommended that you take some basic tools with you to test the engine, many will recommend trying to get a battery and some sort of starting mechanism but it really depends on the yard as many will apparently not let you in with the battery.
So with that said, you then have to rely on what you are seeing on the odometer, if it is even still present. Then from there everyone seems to recommend that you attempt to turn the engine over by hand to ensure that you hear no random sounds and feel nothing dragging. While you are doing that you should have brought a compression tester with you to see if you can get any compression numbers from the engine while you turn it by hand. This is somewhat hit or miss it appears but those that do it say if you can get anything above 60psi then you should be good to go with an engine that at least has SOME compression in it. This does not mean that the engine does not have issues but from there gives you an idea to better whittle down your heard.
Again, salvage yard pull is going to be labor intensive with the cost being around $250 for the engine assembly. Here is the kicker though, Pick N Pull regularly does half off everything events, which means that you could conceivably get an engine assembly for a little over $100 and if you have done your scouting then you could get something good. The other thing that you can do is if you have a smartphone then you have the CARFAX app that you can download, and since you are in front of the vehicle you can run the CARFAX at that point and pretty much get everything back right then. This will give you some indication as to what happened and hopefully help connect some of the dots.

So to recap:
Build - Can be $$$ depending on what you get and from where. Basic bare bones engine will require all accessories, intake, exhaust, etc. but that can come from cheap sources if you wish. The benefit is that you get a Zero Mileage block to start out with (a half breed?) that has slightly used parts on it. Lots of variables and lots of assembly required

Buy types:
Salvage Group - Will have the MOST information next to the build option. These will vary based on year of vehicle, mileage, shipping costs, delivery method, etc. Again, you will have lots and lots of information on the engine (depending on the group/company) and sometimes have the added option of an extended warranty or specialized programming. There is also the possibility of the core charge so this is going to be the more expensive option of the BUY type.

Donor Pull - this can possibly be the best of both world; cheap and knowledge of the engine vehicle depending on if you pull directly at the persons house or you buy the whole farm! Main thing is with this one you get to see and hear the engine running yourself (many times) and have the ability to perform some advanced tests should you have the tools (e.g. compression tester, leak down tester, coolant system tester, etc.). However, this can require the storage space for the vehicle, a loving and understanding partner, etc. So could be cheap or depending on how badly you piss off the significant other/neighbors could be the most costly!!
Along with this one comes the possibility of searching on something like craigslist or kijiji and finding a local that has already pulled or is planning to pull and engine and you get to be the benefactor. This really depends on what they are selling as their version of the "engine assembly" so it can be hit or miss. You are taking the sellers word if you buy an engine that is already pulled so there is some risk to it but then again you always know where the person lives if you really really have an issue.

Wrecking Yard Pull - this is potentially the cheapest simply because of the possibility of that ever present half off day and the reduced cost of the engine. However the flip side is that this is also the riskiest simply because of the fact that you know nothing about the engine, why the vehicle is there and basically what the condition was other than some inventive investigating.


Drivetrain:

Ah the venerable question that we all must fight with…. this is probably the one that most everyone will find to be as important, if not more important than the engine itself…. WHAT DRIVETRAIN?
Do I stay with all Toyota?
Do I go with a GM tranny and Toyota split case? (Note: NV4500 M/T comes in the following 92-05 Chevy pickup both 4x4 and 4x2, 94-05 Dodge Ram both 4x4 and 4x2, average new cost will be $1500+ and for my area used cost is around $700)
What about a full GM drivetrain? What do I need after that? Axle? New????

Then there are adapters, it seemed like at one point there were quite a few adapter companies to go with, Downey for instance, but they have gone the way of the dodo. Seems like now days you are limited pretty much to Advance Adapters, Ranger Over/Underdrive and possibly Orion depending on the setup you go with. Again this comes down to how much $$$ you have to throw at the build and how good your fab skills are because if you don’t have those you must realize that you will have to make some support modifications with a GM drivetrain

GM drivetrains; be it the NV4500 manual, the 4L60 or 4L80 auto or the usage of a doubler or NP series t-case will require two things:
- an adapter for the t-case to tranny
- modifications to the crossmember AT LEAST and possibly to the whole rear end

Here is a great link on the NV4500..... The Novak Guide to the NV4500 Transmission

Lots of guys will debate on the “driveability” the 4L60 or NV4500 as being superior to the stock H42 4spd and I don’t doubt it, but if you are in a time crunch or on a budget and have little to no fab skills then you are limited in what you can do. The Auto trannies, 4L60 or 700R4 etc., can be found pretty easily and plentiful. They are somewhat easy to rebuild but to meet up with the stock Toyota t-case they will need an adapter, so you are looking at $400 to $600 for the adapter there. That is not including finding the tranny itself and getting it which can be in the same price range, sometime cheaper depending. So you are looking at $1200 right there for just the drivetrain by itself. Oh and then once that is done don't forget that you are going to have to get your drivelines modified to adapt to the new drivetrain length, from the normal consensus this ranges in price depending on what you have done but really seems to be an average of right around $250-$300.

Then there is the NV4500, the GM/Dodge 5spd. This is a heavy duty truck transmission and many believe that it drives and feels like it, longer throws between gears, bit more of a notchy shift feel but all in all a great transmission. Much like the autos you will have to an adapter to the split case for this which runs you in the $400-$600 range just like the auto. The main difference here is there are a couple different models of the NV4500 and of those models there is the 2wd and 4wd variants. From what I have gathered, either will work appropriately you just have to know which version you are getting as an input shaft may need to be changed/modified. The costs that I have found run the tranny in the $1000+ range for used and $1800 range for new. So if you are looking at the NV4500 NEW I would probably start leaning towards the H55F which you can still get from Toyota New. Cost of the H55F from someone like Onur (@beno) will run you about $2500 but then again if you have the Ranger you get another gear on top of that and if you just go with the straight adapter you are not having to modify anything drivetrain wise.

Now you will have to modify the crossmember to properly accept the new tranny, so if you do not have the skills then you will have to have a friend do it or have a shop do it for you. So that could mean extra money or not. Add to that now that you will have to get a new shift lever, figure out the shift linkage, possibly do some modification to your transmission tunnel to ensure that the shifter has the correct movement, etc. and you are looking at a bit more money. However, these are known to be better driving trannies and the auto is supposed to be SWEET if you wheel a lot. Again, this is about keeping the build cheap so I will be focusing on the stock H42 4spd. Now if for some reason you do have the option to grab the 4L60 or 700R cheap with the engine, along with any computer management system that comes with it I would HIGHLY recommend dumping the extra cash into that.

So the H42 is a bit of a dog. Around my area on the highway I am looking at 3K rpm to keep the truck above 65mph (normal traffic speeds) and that is with the stock diffs and 31s on mainly flat land. Some will say they are able to pull 65mph with the RPM range between 2500 and 3k rpm but for the most part we are constantly flogging these engines to keep up with traffic. And this was known by most of us from the beginning as the 2F is a tractor motor, meant for low speeds and high torque. Really it depends on a few variables like the health of your engine and drivetrain, size tires, mods to your truck, etc. to make her move. But we all realize that we are not going anywhere fast and she will pretty much get the same gas mileage whether she has 1k lbs of stuff in her or almost completely empty, CRAP! Well that is where the desire for a change to something more powerful really starts to step in for many of us.
With the H42 you get a pretty low crawl gear as first, some people love this about the stock 4spd and some people hate it. I don't really mind the low speeds, the 60 series has the aerodynamics of a flying brick wall so the fact that I cannot cut through the air like a knife doesn't really bother me, then add to that the fact that I normally have a mtn bike strapped to the top and you are adding a sail to the flying brick wall basically giving it the drag coefficient of trying to suck a hairball through a overly clogged and rust filled drain.
Probably the one benefit in all of this is that Marks Offroad/Advance Adapters makes two different adapters for this;
- The Ranger OverDrive, and
- GM V8 to Toyota bellhousing adapter
I think there are a one or two other companies that USED to make them (Downey for instance) but have since gone out of business but you MAY be able to find them used. The Bellhousing adapter is probably the cheapest and least frills, cost is around $500 depending on which you get and what items you get with it. The Ranger is the other option. This is a bit different because it is a torque splitter that acts as an adapter between the GM bellhousing and the Toyota transmission. This can give you a 27% overdrive and can be used in ANY gear at any time. With it you have the option of running it at a 1:1 ratio (think stock configuration) or in a 0.73:1 ratio (overdrive, like a 5th gear). This is adaptable to both the H42 and the H55 (5spd) so if you do run the 5spd you could get yourself an even higher highway overdrive for those long stretches.

What I feel is the main benefit of the Ranger is that it requires ZERO drivetrain modification. No new or modified crossmember, no changing drivelines and doesn't even sound like you have to worry about pinion angle or anything like that while you are doing it. Compared to the other adapters for the NV4500 and Autos it is the plug and play swap. But this comes at a price, with normal cost running close to $1400 for a new one. They can occasionally be found used but that is a crapshoot.

Again for the purpose of this extreme budget I would err on the side of the Ranger simply because it is a two fold as it requires no driveline modifications and gives you a torque splitter with overdrive. While it is the higher of the costs for adapters at about $1400 it has it's added benefits.

So to recap:
- GM drivetrain to Toyota Splitcase will require and adapter along with the cost of the tranny of your desire (LOL). There will be some requirements for drivetrain modifications (driveline shortening, new crossmember fab, etc.) along with specialized parts to make the tranny work along with trans tunnel modifications to ensure proper throw and what not. This goes for the NV4500 manual as well as the 4L60/4L80/700R/etc. so you have some thinking to do.
- GM Engine to Toyota Drivetrain will require an adapter which there are two types; a torque splitter (Ranger) and a bellhousing adapter. The bellhouse will be the cheapest while the Ranger is the most expensive. This is still going to be your least time consumptive as there are no needed modifications to the drivelines, crossmember, etc., you are basically able to plug n play for lack of a better term. This also add adaptability if you have the H42 4spd to move up to the H55 5spd in the future.
- All GM Drivetrain, I didn't talk about this one because for me this is out of the cards unless you have everything, for the most part, already. This is where you would swap out your complete drivetrain along with your rear axle for a GM rear axle. This allows you to move to a centered diff and other upgrades but requires lots and lots of fabrication to make this line-up and work. To me that is not worth it for the cost of the engine, tranny, t-case, drivelines and rear axle to allow for GM everything and again this requires more that you have an entire donor truck available for you to pick everything from.

Adapters:

This is probably the next most crucial portion to the drivetrain adaptation for your new heart next to the drivetrain selection itself. With this you have to know exactly what direction you are going in for your drivetrain as you will need to get the adapter for that specific drivetrain.

GM Transmission Adapater - this is probably the most common place and cost effective solution for all the swaps. It depends on what you are planning on doing with regards to your drivetrain but most everything is taken into account with this. You can easily find the adapter for the 4L60/4L80/700R4/TH400 to the Toyota splitcase or the NV4500 to the Toyota splitcase. Outside of that you are looking for more specialized items that will be needed to adapt whatever transfercase you are utilizing to the Toyota drivelines. Remember that this WILL require modifications to the crossmember support and possibly the drivelines themselves as the GM tranny is a different length and will change the length of the driveshafts and their placement. Depending on what you go with you will need to also ensure that you have the proper linkage for the transmission, shift arm/lever and some modifications to the tranmission tunnel may be required to ensure that the lever has the proper throw and placement.
On top of that there is also changes to the slave/master cylinder if you are running the NV4500 as well as the clutch. But then again you should really be looking at replacing the clutch, unless recently done, no matter what.

For the swap where you are mating the GM engine to the stock Toyota tranny then you are looking at the bellhousing adapter for that. Depending on what transmission you have or plan to have, H42F vs H55F, will determine what you can go with. There is only one adapter offered for the FJ60/62 and is $1400, again not cheap but allows you to keep the Toyota drivetrain as well as the necessary orientation of everything and just mate the engine to it. I have read of some people having issues with this adapter being a bit of a bear to mate up properly but seems like it is hit or miss. This is a full kit though so it comes with engine mounts and a few other items to allow you to do the swap, otherwise these would be those small ancillary items you would have to pick up separately.

Torque Splitter - the debate as to the "need" of this is debateable as it really depends on what the intended use of your truck is. This is the Ranger Overdrive which offers a 27% overdrive when engaged (I believe it was a final drive ratio of 0.73) effectively giving you a doubler for every gear. This can be useful for those of us with the 4spd as it would effectively drop your rpm range from 3k to 2200, which can make a huge difference in not only drivetrain/engine life but also in the consumption of gas. While this will not be the solution for everyone due to the cost, it is something to think about as you progress forward. This, like the Toyota adapter bellhousing kit, allows you to keep stock drivetrain location and essentially becomes a plug n play for the engine.

So to recap.....
You have two options:
Bellhousing Adapter or Torque splitter. The Bellhousing adapter can apply to both GM and Toyota mating transmissions whereas the Torque splitter is really only a Toyota to GM Engine adaptation (for the purposes of this thread). Cost of the adapter itself and the ancillary items is going to be cheaper for the GM transmission however that does not account for the cost of said transmission. The Toyota to GM Engine focuses on the fact that you are utilizing what you have available and attempting to minimize not only cost but skills needed for fabrication.

For me this is a no brainer, I am keeping the cost as low as possible so I am sticking with the Toyota tranny. But this is also a two fold decision; the other portion of it was that I bought the FJ60 for two reasons. Those reasons are that I like the round eyes over the square and I wanted a manual transmission. So with sticking with that I was left with deciding between an NV4500 or sticking with the Toyota. The cost of the NV4500 became prohibitive on its own unless I was able to come across one that was a stellar deal. So the decision now comes to bellhousing adapter or the Ranger. For me that will really depend as the Ranger offers more but I will need to get motor mounts and other ancillary items which will add to the cost where as the bellhousing only is that.

Fuel Management:

Fuel management is something that everyone will deal with a little differently depending on how they want to go. But ultimately depending on the engine you use, TBI vs. Vortec/LSx, you are going to need adequate fuel pressure. With that being said, one of the best recommendations that I have come across is to install a fuel pressure gauge somewhere easily viewable in the engine compartment, ESPECIALLY if you are going for a TBI.

TBI - requires a low pressure fuel system. Depending on the site that you go to many of them will recommend different fuel pumps to go along with the engine. The stock 60/62 WILL NOT WORK with this engine as it does not produce the proper pressure. You will be looking for a good quality, low pressure pump that hits about 12psi. I have seen people that have consistent 15-16psi be able to run properly but these seemed to be more modified engines so I would stick with the recommendation of something that hits the 12psi mark. TBIChips sells an AC Delco kit that he recommends and I have seen the same model (AC Delco EP381) along with a Walbro pump.

As you get further into modifying the engine that is when the fuel management system needs to be upgraded. This is not your stock carb'd engine so you will need to look at flashing your computer to ensure that everything is working properly. Most people recommend a pre-pump filter to help keep things operating smoothly and I have seen multiple builds where people install a post pump filter as well as pressure regulator. The pressure regulators that I have seen have been from a C5 corvette but could never get any part numbers for that. Again, seems like the best bet is that you go with a known good quality pump, couple filters inline and a pressure gauge in the engine compartment for easy troubleshooting.

Vortec/LSx - When the engines changed to the Vortec head and away from the TBI injection then you ran into other changes where a different, high pressure fuel pump was needed. For most of these applications, all the way to current, you SHOULD be able to run the same type of pump. This DOES NOT include the VORTEC 350. For newer generation engines like the 4.8L, 5.3L and 6.0L you are looking for something that produces at least 40psi, at minimum consistently. Really you need something that produces in the 50-75psi range as the fuel demand changes with load. This is something that is a bit debated but definitely do your research for the particular engine you get and find what is adequate for that engine. Spec for these engines seems to be 50-55psi from what I am finding. There are a few members who have had success with the stock FJ62 in-tank pump working out for them. However, this does not seem to be practiced much so I probably wouldnt recommend it unless you recently swapped yours out or had your tank swapped on recall.

Delivery and reading is something that will need to be taken care of with the computer and gauges. You can work the stock system for the 60s to splice into the GM harness and work adequately and this is done by lots of people and apparently not hard. There is some modification that needs to be done to the sending unit in the tank and there are people that have gone with a GM unit in the tank or modified the 60 unit to work with the GM unit (basically creating a hybrid unit). Modifications are pretty straight forward and for the FJ62 you will need to drop the tank to get inside. Since I am doing this in my 60 I have the access port in the rear so I will go through there saving myself some time. Since the hybrid sender seems to be something that lots have done I will more than likely go that way to keep my stock gauges.

 

[gregnash]

So it seems like these last sections are where some real variety comes into play which is why I have had a hard time updating them. Here is what information I have at this point...


Gauges:

This is going to be a major person preference depending on what all you are doing. Ultimately with a low budget in mind you will mainly be able to get away with just an updated tach to read the proper signal from your new engine. However, even that is up in the air as some have modified the stock tach to read the new signal or added an adapter/converter to change how it read the input.


To get a more accurate reading though it is recommended that you get a new tach that is setup for the engine you are putting into the 60. Especially the new Vortec engines utilize the tach signal for shifting, if you are going with a 4l60e, and things like AC idle up. From there what tach you actually use will depend on your own personal preference for look, budget, etc. as there is a VERY large range out there with costs going from ~$30 to hundreds of dollars. Personally, I like a more stock-ish look so I would probably go with something like Equus, Autometer or VDO that have tachs that are similar in style to the stock ones.


I believe that the closest size will be 3 3/8" tach but will require some slight modifications to the stock bezel to be able to properly fit. Same will go for any other gauges, NCFJ has done a spectacular job of keeping the stock bezel but constructing a modified backplate that goes on the backside for new gauges to mount to that will keep the stock look and feel.


Exhaust:

Again, another personal preference item as the sound of the exhaust, layout and whatnot will depend on the owner and the shop being utilized. There is the option to have the manifolds go into a Y pipe and then have a single cat to exhaust or to do bolt pipes to dual cats and then single or double exhaust. Again, a lot of personal preference, shop skills and recommendations and what not. There is room to do either underneath our cruisers so have fun with it.


Personally whichever engine I eventually end up with will probably do a Y-Pipe with single cat and muffler for simplicity sake. I have heard the Flowmaster 50-series and think that is the best sound for my personal preference so will more than likely go with that.


Computer/Wiring Harness:

Quite a few options out there depending on your skills...

Some have taken on the challenge of changing out the wiring themselves and modifying the harness with success. There are a couple good threads that have it completely laid out on what needs to be done where but this comes down to how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole.


This is probably the next largest area for ROI. In the name of the low budget this is something that has to be very closely evaluated and monitored by the person doing it. From everything that I have read the TBI harness is the easier of the two to do BUT there is plenty of documentation out there on the Vortec harnesses. Most will say that this is at least a good 40+hrs worth of wire clean-up and everything. So if your time is valuable then you may have a better return for your investment with going with a dedicated aftermarket harness.


There are many companies that put out both harnesses for Vortec and TBI….. Pacific Fabrications, Howell EFI and Painless are the main ones that I have found people using. All with good results.


With regards to the computer, you will need to have it flashed depending on what you are doing. The transmission selection, use of omission of AC, and other such things will be taken into account with what is going on. Ultimately, this will NEED to be done for everything to work properly. Multiple companies out there will either A.) flash/reprogram your computer for you when getting the wiring harness or B.) will sell a modified computer that is programmed to your specs with the harness. These will range in cost from about $600 to $800 depending on different add-ons that you get and other such items. So again this comes down to what is more important in the project to you, time or budget. Personally I will be going with a vendor modified harness as it will make things easier on me and ultimately get the truck back together as quickly as possible. The last thing that I want this to be is an extended downtime project so where I can cut “manual” corners at the cost of increased price/budget I probably will.


Modifications:

 

[gregnash]

Build Directory:
Pretty self explanatory as this will be a list of any and all build threads I can find that I feel are helpful. Many will be MUD threads as they are all helpful, and why not plug our community, there may be some that are other vehicle based (e.g. 40 series, 55 series) depending on the info they have..

Vortec:
FJ60Cam's Build Cam's FJ60 is Gittin' a Heart Transplant
Cruiser Enthuiser's Build 2F Retirement/ Vortec Resto-Fresh



TBI 350:
RMP&O Ramjet build RMP&O's 1984 FJ60, v8, lockers and more!

Helpful Websites:
LT1 Swap
Harris Performance, INC | GM Fuel injection for the average guy
-VORTEC vs LS
Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

 

[Elbert]

salvage yard 5.3, stock build if needed, matching GM auto transmission, aa adapter, FJ60 transfer case.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Subscribing. But, see Cam's FJ60 build thread, and do that.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/cams-fj60-is-gittin-a-heart-transplant.809304/


Cameron's truck works great. As I understand things, it's a basically stock 5.3. Don't even think about a TBI swap. Really, it's great.

 

[daytonadogie]

It's not the power plant that is the big expense, it's the labor. Also the adapters, manifolds , motor mounts, exhaust, cats, wiring harness, oil pan, driveshafts, PCM reflash, hose fittings, efi fuel pump issues, etc. etc. I really don't mean to dissuade you, but you need to look at the big picture. Engine choice is just one piece of the puzzle.

 

[daytonadogie]

Ask Cam how much $$$ he has into it. If you do decide to do it, go with the LS/Vortec. It won't cost you that much more. Probably the best bang for the buck!

 

[daytonadogie]

Check out
WWW.LT1SWAP.COM
Brendan pretty much wrote the book on DIY Vortec harness mods. He can also reflash PCM, for $75. I used his website countless times when doing my swap. Tons of info. Also check out Ed's no frills build thread.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/2f-retirement-vortec-resto-fresh.838931/

 

[daytonadogie]

IMHO, don't screw around doing an engine build, unless you like doing that kind of thing. You will have plenty of other issues without having to sort out a rebuilt motor. Good used 5.3 or even 4.8 gen3 vortec's are everywhere for a lot less than a Summit crate engine, and they have impressive performance. I can't see how a TBI swap would be any cheaper or easier to do after you factor in the cost difference of the two motors.

 

[MANUCHAO]

I second the LS Gen lll engine and LT1SWAP site..

Getting the wiring harness and re-flashing done right the first time will help if not keep away those electrical gremlins.

Best buck for your $$ would be to score a whole rig and pick it apart as you move into your engine swap.....

Good luck..!!

 

[cruisermatt]

I would keep the Toyota transmission, it will make location the engine mounts easier (use the pre-existing crossmember as a guide). Plus I just like manuals. And you can keep your driveshafts.

Than you can go h55f in the future.

 

[gregnash]

Oh believe me boys I have read all of their build threads and am in the process of bribing Ed to let me take his cruiser for a "spin"...

 

[FJ60Cam]

I would definitely go with the Gen III over an earlier design. There really aren't any good reasons not too

My best estimate is that I spent $7500 to do the bare minimum. Since I considered it an investment in the truck's future (and future me's spare time), I did a lot of while I was in there stuff that wasn't absolutely necessary to get me up and running.

You could probably knock $1000-2000 off my number by going with a higher mileage Gen III instead of a lower mileage IV. You could knock off another big chunk by doing your own wiring harness. You might also save a few bucks by going with a 4.8 since there is more supply of those than demand.

I think it will be hard to get much under $5000. You have to touch the fuel, air, cooling, mounts, adapters, PS, AC, wiring, shifter, exhaust, etc no matter which engine you pick, so you might as well go with the 5.3 (or 4.8/6.0) since it is such a good design.

Once you drive Ed's, there will be no turning back

 

[cruiser enthuiser]

Obviously a strong consensus for the Vortec and I agree they are the most bang for the buck.

My 5.3l motor was $1000. Reman 4l60e trans was $1000. Harness $800. Exhaust $400 (should have been $600-$800). I forget what I paid for the AA adapters $700-$800?. All the other misc. details...they really add up. Think Cam is on the money at about $7500 for a 5.3l Vortec conversion, assuming you can do the fab work yourself.

Mentally I just had to think of this as an affordable alternative to getting a reliable, capable truck as opposed to buying new one. I was seriously considering a new Tacoma a few months back. It would have been well over $30k for what I wanted. Makes the $7500 seem pretty reasonable when you consider my Fj60 now has more power and more style than the Tacoma and is nearly as reliable

With that said though, I wouldn't write off alternatives yet. Keep your eyes open, search the forums (lots of engines/ transmissions for sale on Pirate 4x4) and you might find a great deal on something. My FJ40 has a SBC that I converted to TBI for pretty cheap back in the day.

BTW, got an alternate vehicle to drive while all this is going on? Sharing the wife's car will get old quick and the swap WILL TAKE LONGER than you plan for.

-Ed

 

[SNLC]

Unless you are taking it to a shop or have 4+ weeks off work and $10k I would plan on a long term project. Say 1yr from start to finish. Totally can do it in 3 months but you will be working in the shop every spare moment you have. Whats nice about a longer term project is spreading out the expense, time sink as well as doing other things to the truck while it is down.

I been driving TBI work trucks for over 20yrs. They get it done but in stock form suck. Not a heck of a lot better than a smogged 2F on mnt. passes that is for sure. Better cheaper performance to be had from a carb'ed 350. And for $1,000 you can get solid 5.3's all day long. Get with the new gen, new technology and all that. Don't be shy or afraid of it, it is very simple really and works better.

You can get a bad dad brand new 3-wire 400hp 5.3 from turn key for about $7-8k. Or for about $4-6k you can get a 400hp used 6.2L. Or you can buy a GM Goodwrench TBI 350 for $1500. Or you can go with the early vortec or whatever else along the way. I don't see any reason to invest in the older technology, TBI's or MPFI or even carb'ed. Now if you just want raw hp and street performance go a carbed 350 or 327 for that matter. If you want a super smooth running low maintenance, long lasting v8, go with the newest gen vortec you can get. The car v8's, IE LS, are not so well suited to the truck-Cruiser platform in my opinion. Power band in wrong place and other things like low mount alt are an issue.

Cheers

 

[doug720]

As OP mentioned, a swap is 2-3 banana job.

I did a diesel swap in 3 weeks at a TOTAL final cost of just over $2200.00. I bought the engine and parts right, sold off extra parts, and did 95% of the work my self on evenings and weekends.

On finding the right donor, my suggestion is to find the most complete vehicle you can. You will be shocked how many parts you will use and need from it. Nuts and bolts, mounts, fittings, wiring, and who knows what else. Plus, at the end, you sell off what's not needed, even scrap metal. You can also get many factory measurements that will make life easier. You may pay more to start with a complete donor, but, IMHO, it will pay off many times over.

Do it!

 

[gregnash]

I would definitely go with the Gen III over an earlier design. There really aren't any good reasons not too

My best estimate is that I spent $7500 to do the bare minimum. Since I considered it an investment in the truck's future (and future me's spare time), I did a lot of while I was in there stuff that wasn't absolutely necessary to get me up and running.

You could probably knock $1000-2000 off my number by going with a higher mileage Gen III instead of a lower mileage IV. You could knock off another big chunk by doing your own wiring harness. You might also save a few bucks by going with a 4.8 since there is more supply of those than demand.

I think it will be hard to get much under $5000. You have to touch the fuel, air, cooling, mounts, adapters, PS, AC, wiring, shifter, exhaust, etc no matter which engine you pick, so you might as well go with the 5.3 (or 4.8/6.0) since it is such a good design.

Once you drive Ed's, there will be no turning back

Between Cam (@FJ60Cam), Ed (@cruiser enthuiser) and the builds that @NCFJ have posted up those are probably our most complete and definitive guides around. There are also the others like @MANUCHAO, @dbleon, @M1A1cruiser and others that have provided TONS of information not to mention other threads for different trucks and all the stuff out on the internet. But here is the main thing, this is an EXTREME budget build, what can you get for the least amount of money that will still provide good useability? Yes the 5.3L Vortec is going to be the best bang for the buck but that is also assuming that the swapper has all the necessary skills and tools or knows someone that does, has the ability to modify their own harness or can spend the extra money on the 2-wire/3-wire harness and can get the computer reflashed for the necessary build items that need deleting (built-in security features, different trans, etc.) and what not.

So again, it comes down to what your budget can afford and what you are willing to compromise with.
Will you be willing to deal with a newer tech engine but with much higher mileage?
What about a less tech engine with lower mileage but still acceptable power?
Is the difference in power between the 5.7L TBI and the 5.3L Vortec that much to make a difference in the project?
Then there is always the 4.8L Vortec (the little brother)? Where does this fall into play?

For me and the purpose of this build Cam and Doug (@doug720) bring up the perfect points.... Cam went with a Vortec and spent close to $7k where a build with Doug's purpose in mind, doing some hunting will result in possibly yielding an older but good mileage engine and ultimately in a low budget... Those guys that have kept things to a minimum with a TBI 350 or other engine have been able to do so for less than the goal of this build thread, $5k, and even a few less than that. From my research I have found that guys are able to pull this build off for a little as $2500 if they keep things to a minimum. For me the biggest costs will be what engine I go with and what adapter. If I go with the Ranger then I am looking at $1400+ just for that but the addition of a torque splitter that will effectively give me a 5th gear or if I go with the straight bellhousing adapter I am looking at about $500+.

Like I said in the beginning... lots and lots of variables to take into account prior to doing anything. Knowing where you are willing to compromise is the biggest thing, then knowing your limitations.