Need help with front end head-scratcher (1 Viewer)

[cruiseroutfit]

I own the beige one. The green one belongs to JTO on the east coast. Picture I have of that one back east came in a personal email do not feel right posting here. When the Miller Group purchased Proffitt's shop in Colorado and moved to it to Utah I was in contact with the person running that shop. Mentioned my 76 to keep and was told the museum was not currently expanding. Wasn't trying to sell it. I had four FJ25s at that time and mentioned those as well. May have thought I was trying sell those which I wasn't. That was obviously years ago. But just seem the least bid interested in the 76 with full time 4WD. The picture with sheet over it is how it sits now. Actually in a good climate to preserve it.

Joe still has his, he's not had it out in years. He is going to get me some clearer photos tomorrow. He thinks the shift panel was factory produced (no clue who actually made those for Toyota) but called the other parts 'more experimental'. I'm excited to see some closer pics.

I'm guessing you would have been talking to Onur or Kyle if it was post Proffits move to SLC?

To be fair, it's likely still not something we would be interested in for the museum (personal opinion and I'm just one of a handul of board members fwiw). I suppose if it were fully/authentically restored or better yet a full super clean survivor (has an aux tank installed yeah?) and there was some way to less anecdotally link the connection to Toyota... it would definitely be something to consider.

More than the Cruiser itself, I'd love to know more about @lcwizard ability to run an early ID plate, that information would be gold for tracking frame numbers to actual full model codes and more importantly low volume builds, FST numbers, etc.

What would you expect to see on a VIN plaque for a custom build? Only thing not normal for an FJ40 is the M42 transmission. Has A pillar plaque and serial number puts the production in the month on the A pillar plaque.

The "M42" is exactly what I'd love to see. Is it a custom build or a factory build? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of

Either way, super fun subject to dig into and I appreciate your replies. Now if we could just figure out if Malleus has a 3rd known full-time prototype model and his would he much later than yours and JT's as it's a 1977.

 

[lcwizard]

Joe still has his, he's not had it out in years. He is going to get me some clearer photos tomorrow. He thinks the shift panel was factory produced (no clue who actually made those for Toyota) but called the other parts 'more experimental'. I'm excited to see some closer pics.

I'm guessing you would have been talking to Onur or Kyle if it was post Proffits move to SLC?

To be fair, it's likely still not something we would be interested in for the museum (personal opinion and I'm just one of a handul of board members fwiw). I suppose if it were fully/authentically restored or better yet a full super clean survivor (has an aux tank installed yeah?) and there was some way to less anecdotally link the connection to Toyota... it would definitely be something to consider.

More than the Cruiser itself, I'd love to know more about @lcwizard ability to run an early ID plate, that information would be gold for tracking frame numbers to actual full model codes and more importantly low volume builds, FST numbers, etc.



The "M42" is exactly what I'd love to see. Is it a custom build or a factory build? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of

Either way, super fun subject to dig into and I appreciate your replies. Now if we could just figure out if Malleus has a 3rd known full-time prototype model and his would he much later than yours and JT's as it's a 1977.

The Borg warner T-case has it's own ID plate with a model number, date of mfg, etc. Dana does the same with axles and T cases ( now New Venture).
I didn't try running any Toyota Vin numbers for any info. I guess I wasn't that curious. Thirty years ago , aside from John ( @ living in the past ) few
Cruiser owners were that focused on all the details of how and why a Land Cruiser existed. Now that it's more cultish, there a huge interest.
Back then we just built them, drove, broke them and rebuilt them. Show quality 40s were 1 in a thousand. Trail rigs were the other 999

 

[middlecalf]

This is obviously very important info and convo for the cruiser world, and I’ve been following as best I can as a complete outsider to the level of detail herein. It needs to continue for sure, but…

The OP’s issue has been lost in topic and buried. It needs to be brought back.

There are three topics in this thread:
1) the OP’s issue with needing “help with front end head-scratcher”
2) the point raised by @Malleus that locking hubs are of no benefit to parts longevity and rig fuel consumption
3) the debate on whether Toyota participated in full-time 4WD trials and if so which FJ40’s might have been part of that (to possibly include @Malleus ’s rig), coupled to what documentation trail exists about this

It would be great if this thread could be split into three by topic as delineated. Is that possible whoever is the moderator (Kurt)? Otherwise just like before topic #3 will get lost again in the weeds and topic #1 will never get solved (by the community’s help) for the OP. Topic #2 is not really a concern for me, FWTW.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The Borg warner T-case has it's own ID plate with a model number, date of mfg, etc. Dana does the same with axles and T cases ( now New Venture).
I didn't try running any Toyota Vin numbers for any info. I guess I wasn't that curious. Thirty years ago , aside from John ( @ living in the past ) few Cruiser owners were that focused on all the details of how and why a Land Cruiser existed. Now that it's more cultish, there a huge interest.
Back then we just built them, drove, broke them and rebuilt them. Show quality 40s were 1 in a thousand. Trail rigs were the other 999

I‘d love to check out the BW BOM/ID plate, didn’t even think about using that as a resource. I’m super familiar with the BOM tags, could be a fantastic resource to investigate, perhaps they would have better records of the project and total units built. I’ll ask JT for a pic of his, @Living in the Past are you able to get a pic of yours?

The Land Cruiser story has certainly become more mainstay, particularly as the fabled 40 has admittedly become cultist. I wasn’t there to see the market 30 years ago, just 29 but I’ve always been asking ”Why”

 

[cruiseroutfit]

This is obviously very important info and convo for the cruiser world, and I’ve been following as best I can as a complete outsider to the level of detail herein. It needs to continue for sure, but…

The OP’s issue has been lost in topic and buried. It needs to be brought back.

There are three topics in this thread:
1) the OP’s issue with needing “help with front end head-scratcher”
2) the point raised by @Malleus that locking hubs are of no benefit to parts longevity and rig fuel consumption
3) the debate on whether Toyota participated in full-time 4WD trials and if so which FJ40’s might have been part of that (to possibly include @Malleus ’s rig), coupled to what documentation trail exists about this

It would be great if this thread could be split into three by topic as delineated. Is that possible whoever is the moderator (Kurt)? Otherwise just like before topic #3 will get lost again in the weeds and topic #1 will never get solved (by the community’s help) for the OP. Topic #2 is not really a concern for me, FWTW.

Agreed. Let’s sort #1 and move #3 to a new thread. #2 isn’t a concern of mine other than to say I’m happy to start a ‘Drive Flange Swap’ program for anyone wanting to ditch those pesky AISIN hubs.

 

[lcwizard]

I‘d love to check out the BW BOM/ID plate, didn’t even think about using that as a resource. I’m super familiar with the BOM tags, could be a fantastic resource to investigate, perhaps they would have better records of the project and total units built. I’ll ask JT for a pic of his, @Living in the Past are you able to get a pic of yours?

The Land Cruiser story has certainly become more mainstay, particularly as the fabled 40 has admittedly become cultist. I wasn’t there to see the market 30 years ago, just 29 but I’ve always been asking ”Why”

When I went to Big2 Olds Toyota and bought my first 40, new, in 1978, I never imagined where the future was headed. I was 18 and just wanted to go 4 wheeling

 

[lcwizard]

This is obviously very important info and convo for the cruiser world, and I’ve been following as best I can as a complete outsider to the level of detail herein. It needs to continue for sure, but…

The OP’s issue has been lost in topic and buried. It needs to be brought back.

There are three topics in this thread:
1) the OP’s issue with needing “help with front end head-scratcher”
2) the point raised by @Malleus that locking hubs are of no benefit to parts longevity and rig fuel consumption
3) the debate on whether Toyota participated in full-time 4WD trials and if so which FJ40’s might have been part of that (to possibly include @Malleus ’s rig), coupled to what documentation trail exists about this

It would be great if this thread could be split into three by topic as delineated. Is that possible whoever is the moderator (Kurt)? Otherwise just like before topic #3 will get lost again in the weeds and topic #1 will never get solved (by the community’s help) for the OP. Topic #2 is not really a concern for me, FWTW.

I disagree with the locking hubs being no benefit. Look at the 80 series. With drive plates the birfs and front drive shaft are spinning all the time.
80 Birfields will start clicking from wear even if you never go 4 wheeling. With locking hubs you will never wear a birfield unless you lock them in.
Running a truck with non full time t-case like in a 40 or 60, with the hubs locked, does affect the feel of the steering. It takes me about 1/4 mile to know something is off with the front end when hubs are locked. As far as fuel consumption...who cares, you drive a land cruiser.

The driveshafts rotate every time the transmission/transfer output shaft rotates. It makes no difference whether the driveshafts are conencted to the wheels or not. This is why, IMHO, lockout hubs are useless axle jewelry.

Not if the t-case is in 2wd

 

[cruiseroutfit]

When I went to Big2 Olds Toyota and bought my first 40, new, in 1978, I never imagined where the future was headed. I was 18 and just wanted to go 4 wheeling

I will have to take your word for it. I wouldn't be born for a few more years

 

[Zjohnsonua]

Good evening: I'm trying to diagnose a front-end problem with my '78 FJ40 and am looking for some advice from those with more experience and know-how than I possess. i apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I figure the more information I give the better.

Was driving to work the other day, about 1/2 mile out of my driveway I started hearing a rattling and thumping sound from under the front end. Seemed to be coming from the passenger side. No vibration or pull on steering wheel, no loose steering, no strange smell. Just rattling and thumping. Then I started to get an intermittent high-pitched whining sound. My speed of travel at the time was between 20 and 30 mph. At that point I turned around and tried to limp back home. Made it about 1/2 mile when all of a sudden my front end locked up -- it was as if I had hit the brakes, but I hadn't. Called a tow, when he was winching my rig onto the flatbed the front wheels wouldn't turn at first, then they suddenly released and rolled. Same thing when we were unloading -- front wheels were locked at first, but after a couple of hard pushes the front wheels released and it rolled down the ramp and into the street. I jumped in and drove it into the garage, where it now sits. Rig was in 2WD the whole time and front hubs were not locked.

I jacked up each of the front wheels and checked for wobble, noise, or sticking. Passenger side makes a slight ticking noise when I spin it, other than that both wheels spin free with no noticeable wobble or noise.

Rig has original front brake rotors and calipers (I'm pretty sure brake lines are original too), so I was thinking it might be a stuck brake caliper. But there was no brake pad smell and the rig did not pull to one side when I was driving it. So not sure if that's it.

Wheel bearings are only three years old, and aside from the slight clicking sound on the passenger side the wheels seems solid. So that doesn't seem to be it either.

If anyone has advice as to what the problem might be, or anything I should do to try and better diagnose the problem, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

I had a similar experience (everything but the locking up) once upon a time when the spindle bushings were dead dry. I locked the hubs in advance before heading up a snowy road, got a little speed and got very much the same noises and behavior as you describe. Very repeatable. Got it apart and everything was dry...noticeable heat on the bushing and the stub shaft...POs doing PO things. You'll find your cause once you pull the corners apart. I'm interested to see the findings.

 

[JL2167]

Back to the OP. I'm working through the symptoms here.

When moving (20-30mph): Rattling and thumping from front end. No vibration or pull on steering wheel, no loose steering, no strange smell. Intermittent high-pitched whining sound.

That does sound like the potential symptoms of hubs engaged and back-spinning a slippy front driveline or a single locked or stuck hub spinning a broken birf? Though it could also be brake related.

Wheels locked up when moving and stopped:

That could still be something in the birf (broken birf binding) or diff (check of gear catching on ring/pinion) BUT if you can confirm the hubs are not only unlocked but actually working, then it simply has to be wheel bearing or brake related.

“if you can confirm the hubs are not only unlocked but actually working …” With the rig parked in my garage, I can spin the front driveline freely by hand. Is that confirmation that the hubs are unlocked? IS there a way I can confirm that the hubs are actually working, without driving the rig?

Thanks so much for your help.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

“if you can confirm the hubs are not only unlocked but actually working …” With the rig parked in my garage, I can spin the front driveline freely by hand. Is that confirmation that the hubs are unlocked? IS there a way I can confirm that the hubs are actually working, without driving the rig?

Thanks so much for your help.

That is definitely proof that the t-case is in 2WD drive. However, that won't indicate if one of your front hubs is sticking or engaged. You'll want to test that separately.

 

[JL2167]

I had a similar experience (everything but the locking up) once upon a time when the spindle bushings were dead dry. I locked the hubs in advance before heading up a snowy road, got a little speed and got very much the same noises and behavior as you describe. Very repeatable. Got it apart and everything was dry...noticeable heat on the bushing and the stub shaft...POs doing PO things. You'll find your cause once you pull the corners apart. I'm interested to see the findings.

Roger that. Will start pulling it apart as soon as Christmas is over. I’ll let everyone hear know what I find. Thanks for your help!

 

[Living in the Past]

The "M42" is exactly what I'd love to see. Is it a custom build or a factory build? That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of

Here is the VIN Plaque

Not sure when I'll be around where I have these Cruisers stored. Sorry I posted in this thread to be honest. Wasn't planning on side tracking off an already side tracked thread. Really hasn't been that much interest in this before. Think it was 1996 when Dave first told me about Cruiser. If you knew where to look it was listed for sale on Mud for a year. Thread mainly trashed it because of it condition. It probably been parked outside in Phoenix it's whole life prior to my purchase. I just saw a diamond in the rough. These were the only two picture in the for sale thread.

 

[Living in the Past]

@cruiseroutfit
Something tells me this FJ43 is part of the museum.

Also probably the one that was for sale on Craigslist Vancouver back in late 2007.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Here is the VIN Plaque
View attachment 3511554
Not sure when I'll be around where I have these Cruisers stored. Sorry I posted in this thread to be honest. Wasn't planning on side tracking off an already side tracked thread. Really hasn't been that much interest in this before. Think it was 1996 when Dave first told me about Cruiser. If you knew where to look it was listed for sale on Mud for a year. Thread mainly trashed it because of it condition. It probably been parked outside in Phoenix it's whole life prior to my purchase. I just saw a diamond in the rough. These were the only two picture in the for sale thread.
View attachment 3511569View attachment 3511570

Very cool, thank you for sharing that. That M42 on the data tag sways my opinion a great deal I did find the original sale ad here on Mud, I linked that in the 'further reading' above. Thank again for the pics!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

@cruiseroutfit
Something tells me this FJ43 is part of the museum.
View attachment 3511578
Also probably the one that was for sale on Craigslist Vancouver back in late 2007.
View attachment 3511579
View attachment 3511582View attachment 3511580View attachment 3511581

Ah, you're OK sharing our frame numbers? That's OK, we share them all on the website too!

Definitely one in the same:

Land Cruiser Heritage Museum - 1963 FJ43

ToyotaLand Cruiser

landcruiserhm.com

It has some really neat features including remote boosted brakes and a 'central greasing system' for several common grease service points

We need to update the historical info on it. We had some visitors from Japan including Koyari-San, a cheif engineer whom has been working on Land Cruisers since the 60 Series. He shared some video with that vehicle and we got the information about it being from the Kyushu Electric Power patrol.

 

[Living in the Past]

Ah, you're OK sharing our frame numbers? That's OK, we share them all on the website too!

Actually I looked on Mud and downed loaded those pictures today. That included the VIN plaque. I just remembered seeing that FJ43 on here a while ago. Didn't try to open the the CL link since I knew it would be dead. What helped my search was the section and knowing Vancouver was in British Columbia, Canada and not Vancouver Washington USA. Remember it sold fairly quick. Was considering seriously making a road trip from Arizona. They are also a cool FJ43 in Australia that ended up on eBay AU if I had connections in Australia I thought about. That one had hard doors that were short like the early soft top except flat across the model. Not shaped like pre CJ7 jeeps.

 

[jembourbe]

“if you can confirm the hubs are not only unlocked but actually working …” With the rig parked in my garage, I can spin the front driveline freely by hand. Is that confirmation that the hubs are unlocked? IS there a way I can confirm that the hubs are actually working, without driving the rig?

Thanks so much for your help.

No need to pull things apart. Put the car in 4wd and in 1st gear. Lift one front wheel at a time and spin it. If the wheels spin freely, your hubs are unlocked, and your hubs are disengaged from the drivetrain.

 

[jim land]

He can also test on the ground
On 2h , turn the driveshaft with the left hub "lock" and right on "free" , then try the opposite , the driveshaft should turn freely
Also try with both lock and it will not turn , if it turn, one locking hub is defective

 

[cruisermatt]

I still want to see pics of @Malleus transfer case