Theorycraft - V8 swap on an EXTREME Budget (1 Viewer)

[Cruiserdrew]

If your budget is severely limited, you might be better served just keeping your 2F. Underfunded major modifications usually end badly.

 

[gregnash]

If your budget is severely limited, you might be better served just keeping your 2F. Underfunded major modifications usually end badly.

True but that is what I am hoping to address with this thread. Based on the amount of money the person has can they really "afford" to do something like this. Now when I say afford, that means taking into account the downtime for the vehicle, special modifications, extended costs (possible bad items from a pull), etc. Hence why this is a "theorycrafting" thread.

Here is a bit of nerdism for everyone so that you know where "theorycrafting" is coming from if you are not a gamer....
"Theorycraft is the mathematical analysis of game mechanics to discover the best strategies and tactics to maximize player effectiveness. It uses tools such as statistics, ability priority lists, and simulations to analyze strategies. The term was coined by the community of Starcraft players as a portmanteau of "StarCraft" and "game theory", which studies reactions of players in response to game rules.

In video games, theorycraft breaks the barrier between game players and developers, since players try to discover the mechanics that usually are accessible only to developers, such as damage coefficients and hidden but subtle mechanics.[1]

Damage per second (shortened DPS) is unit of measure of damage to a character in relation to time; it is the measure of how quickly a character does damage. Maximizing DPS is often a primary focus of theorycrafters. Theorycrafters will usually factor in all of the following but not limited to: Base damage, cooldown time, global cooldown time, cast time, "procs" or triggers of other effects when the primary skill is used, skill chaining, appropriation of "buffs", frequency and placement of temporary abilities, party makeup, "aggro" gain, frontloaded cast timers, character downtime (from death or otherwise), character stat values, and equipment selection. Gear score is a unit of measure of a character's global potential virtues and weaknesses."

 

[doug720]

There is no reason a budget swap can not be a great swap with outstanding results. With good planning, careful purchases and good workmanship, it is very possible.

I did my swap about 5 years ago and have driven it nearly 45k miles. I take my family to fairly remote places and I have confidence in it. I take my 60 on 500 to 1000 mile trips on a regular basis, and we had it up in Oregon on vacation for a few weeks where we traveled well over 2000 miles. It works well, and was a budget build. So it is possible.

Everyone has a budget, well most...I see no reason to just throw money at things. Plus I like building things, finding solutions to problems and am pretty decent mechanic and fabricator. If you do a swap, you know that vehicle better than anyone else if you ever have a problem.

I bought my 1/2 cut here on mud for $1000.00, found my adapter here also, as well as advise. I bought a spare complete 4BD2 diesel engine for $375.00 not long ago and found Isuzu factory piston kits, gaskets and a complete new head for less than $1100.00. Deals are out there!

Plan, plan, think, search, plan, buy, then execute.



Here's a couple budget build pictures:

 

[gregnash]

^^^ Exactly and planning is what I do for a living so I am hoping that I can impart some knowledge on those who would be looking to do things and hopefully put out those minor fires that they would run into PRIOR to their build actually starting.

@doug720 I still love your build and drool over your diesel swap constantly. Would be awesome but as this will eventually be my first endeavor I would rather not take off more than I can chew.

 

[doug720]

Thanks.

In reality, I think a mechanical diesel swap is easier than an electronic gas engine swap. A starter is a starter, alt is the same, got to have supply and return fuel lines, exhaust, air filter, etc. With a diesel, no ECM, ECU, in tank fuel pumps, etc.

My swap won't push you back in the seat like a V8, but I can do the South bound Grapevine on Hwy 5 here in SoCal loaded with 3 people, 3 dogs, camping gear, 100 degree's f with the AC on in 5th gear at 70 mph + and get 20 mpg.

Sorry for the Hi Jack, but while you're planning, a little dreaming does not hurt!

 

[gregnash]

Thanks.

In reality, I think a mechanical diesel swap is easier than an electronic gas engine swap. A starter is a starter, alt is the same, got to have supply and return fuel lines, exhaust, air filter, etc. With a diesel, no ECM, ECU, in tank fuel pumps, etc.

My swap won't push you back in the seat like a V8, but I can do the South bound Grapevine on Hwy 5 here in SoCal loaded with 3 people, 3 dogs, camping gear, 100 degree's f with the AC on in 5th gear at 70 mph + and get 20 mpg.

Sorry for the Hi Jack, but while you're planning, a little dreaming does not hurt!

No problem and not a thread jack really. If it weren't for my own dissuasion from the local diesel world then I would probably have that within the thread too (maybe something for a different thread). The dream of having the pulling capabilities of a diesel and still achieving over 18+mpg would be stellar but that is outside my comfort zone so it is something that I am not going to try and take on. I am sure that I could find an old NPR breadtruck with the 4BD1T in it and get things done in fairly quick manner but there is more out there about the V8 conversions that will allow me to move quickly once I actually start this project. Maybe in another cruiser down the road... the dream will always be there.

 

[Jokenring]

I did a TBI swap with a motor I rebuilt and used the Mark's adapter to mate to the transmission. Had to buy a used computer and bought a thinned out harness and a bunch of miscellaneous pieces like a tach converter, VSS, fuel pump. etc. All told I think I'm right around $4500 in parts alone. I was in the same boat as you, cheap as possible. I went too cheap on some things which turned into not so cheap. From one cheap bastard to another, do it right the first time, it will be cheaper. I wasted money fixing f-ups because I went too cheap. Halfway through the build I started spending more to do it right, I was tired of doing it twice. I probably would have spent less in the long run if I would have spent a little more up front.

My build took me just under a year. I didn't have the cash up front so a lot of that time was waiting for the reserves to build back up.

 

[FJ60Cam]

I'm not all trying to debate gas vs. diesel, TBI vs. newer, etc. in this post, but am only trying to make the point that going back with anything other than a 2F is going to require touching every system on the truck.

If you break it down by system, you can do a pretty good job of cost estimation. If you are thorough, there will be very few nickel & dime parts. The key is being able to draw the line on "while you're in there" stuff, because you will be tempted.

There is a minimum number of parts you will have to have to make it work and many of those you will not want to buy used or Chinese.

You will pay for this one way or another, whether it is with time or money, or future time or future money. I think the $5000 mark will be tough, going lower even tougher.

Make a list of all the parts and start window shopping. It adds up quick.

 

[FJ60Cam]

Unless you are modifying the wiring harness yourself, the electronic nature of the later GM motors is a non-issue IMO. You will have a stand-alone harness with relatively few required connections to make. +12V, ignition +12V, ground, +12V to fuel pump, check engine light (plus a brake switch for TC unlock if running the auto trans). The rest is self-contained or optional.

 

[gregnash]

I'm not all trying to debate gas vs. diesel, TBI vs. newer, etc. in this post, but am only trying to make the point that going back with anything other than a 2F is going to require touching every system on the truck.

If you break it down by system, you can do a pretty good job of cost estimation. If you are thorough, there will be very few nickel & dime parts. The key is being able to draw the line on "while you're in there" stuff, because you will be tempted.

There is a minimum number of parts you will have to have to make it work and many of those you will not want to buy used or Chinese.

You will pay for this one way or another, whether it is with time or money, or future time or future money. I think the $5000 mark will be tough, going lower even tougher.

Make a list of all the parts and start window shopping. It adds up quick.

Right! That is really what I am hoping to get at with this. A GENERAL guide as to what is required and cost approximations of what it will all cost. Of course there are going to be cheaper or more expensive builds because of the different variables that are added. Hell just general geographical location will add or reduce some costs simply because of the inventory of certain items in the area. If you live in/near a major metropolis that has tons of yards then you may have more availability than the sparse farmland of the mid-west. And even in those areas it may be really only left to the TBI as newer vehicles are not seen in most yards and if they are they are quickly gathered by large salvage companies.

I don't think that they $5k mark (the realistic one) is too low as many threads I have seen where well known contributors post that is what a decent build should cost with a TBI. If I was trying to do $5k for a Vortec build, well that might be a bit Ludacris. But again, cost comes down to your compromises and what you are willing to spend. And yes you are very correct that you have to keep the OCD "while I'm in there" complex to a minimum while working on your truck because potentially it could be down infinitely. I think this is where having a very clear and concise plan comes into play. For me that plan will have some limitations but ultimately the wife and I share her 4Runner anyways and I normally ride to work on a regular basis. We have been there, done that and with it just being the two of us we don't have an issue sharing vehicles. Anyways, ultimately the goal, again, is to come up with some sort of consensus general idea of what is needs, some associated costs and whatnot not only for myself but also for those that have been tossing this around.

Yes I could go and get a decent 2F from Georg or someone else and drop it into my truck over a weekend and pretty much be set. However, this truck is an investment for me so if I am going to have to pull the engine then why not do it with something that is a bit more sustainable. Yeah that can be debated as the TBI setup is 20+yrs old already BUT the aftermarket support is what the 2F/3FE lacks for upgrades and modifications to keep them a truly viable solution. This is like any project that I do for my work, I present the options and requirements to my clients/user and give them all the information that I can come up with. At the end of the day my job is to give them as much information to make as INFORMED a decision as possible but I cannot make that decision for them. The ole "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" scenario.

I did a TBI swap with a motor I rebuilt and used the Mark's adapter to mate to the transmission. Had to buy a used computer and bought a thinned out harness and a bunch of miscellaneous pieces like a tach converter, VSS, fuel pump. etc. All told I think I'm right around $4500 in parts alone. I was in the same boat as you, cheap as possible. I went too cheap on some things which turned into not so cheap. From one cheap bastard to another, do it right the first time, it will be cheaper. I wasted money fixing f-ups because I went too cheap. Halfway through the build I started spending more to do it right, I was tired of doing it twice. I probably would have spent less in the long run if I would have spent a little more up front.

My build took me just under a year. I didn't have the cash up front so a lot of that time was waiting for the reserves to build back up.

I would love to hear more about your build @Jokenring!!!! can you give us a better idea of where you skimped and really shouldn't have? What recommended parts to do feel most will skimp on or try to and should not? $4500 is no cost to sneeze at but still under the initial budget that I set of $5k. Ultimately, this is going to be the research on, like you said, doing things right the first time so you don't have to double pay for them (hence the internal debate I am having about spending the little extra money for the reman'd block like @orangefj45 suggested).

 

[gregnash]

Unless you are modifying the wiring harness yourself, the electronic nature of the later GM motors is a non-issue IMO. You will have a stand-alone harness with relatively few required connections to make. +12V, ignition +12V, ground, +12V to fuel pump, check engine light (plus a brake switch for TC unlock if running the auto trans). The rest is self-contained or optional.

@FJ60Cam Can you go a little more indepth on that Cam? While the research I have done on the Vortec swap has been minimal all the posts that I have read show that the Vortec harness and wiring has been a bit more involved than the TBI. Again most everyone ends up switching to the 4L60 transmission so finding one that has been done with the H55 or H42 has been scarce to say the least.

Oh and for my area, average cost of getting a decent 5.3L Vortec with everything is verging on $2k+ just for the engine assembly depending on the mileage. Where I can pick up a TBI engine assembly for half that or less.

 

[FJ60Cam]

@FJ60Cam Can you go a little more indepth on that Cam? While the research I have done on the Vortec swap has been minimal all the posts that I have read show that the Vortec harness and wiring has been a bit more involved than the TBI. Again most everyone ends up switching to the 4L60 transmission so finding one that has been done with the H55 or H42 has been scarce to say the least.

Oh and for my area, average cost of getting a decent 5.3L Vortec with everything is verging on $2k+ just for the engine assembly depending on the mileage. Where I can pick up a TBI engine assembly for half that or less.

If you buy a harness, 95% of the wiring goes to proprietary plugs that plugs into one and only one sensor or the like on the engine.

In order to make the engine work (aside from fuel, air & coolant), you will need a few electrical connections supplying power to the computer, an ignition signal, power from the harness to the fuel pump, and a check engine light. This is pretty much the same regardless of whether you have a TBI setup or a Vortec. All harness makers will have these leads clearly marked and usually have pretty good instructions.

There can be a few more wires depending on whether you have an auto trans, electric fans, cruise control, aftermarket gauges, etc.

The guy I got my engine transmission combo from was selling clean 100K-ish mile Gen III's complete take-outs (with 4L60E, Computer, stock harness, all engine accessories, factory intake, and mechanical fan) for around $2000. His asking price was higher, but the cash in hand negotiated price was around $2K.

Junkyards (or private sales) will be cheaper, but riskier as far as quality IMO. And you might have to work harder to get all of the parts you need.

These guys are saying that 4.8's are running $500-550 in junkyards with a computer and harness.

 

[gregnash]

Ah cool thanks for the info.. that will definitely be going into the wiring harness/computer section.. I plan on taking a comparison look at the options available for the (DIY Junkyard vs. Painless vs. Howell vs. ????) as that is where some time saving can be made up. I know that Ed (@cruiser enthuiser) originally attempted to go with the DIY but then ended up going with the Painless (I think) and got things done quickly. Unfortunately, doing that adds another $600+ to the price tag of the swap so it will really depend on how much time the swapper has (and sanity to lose).

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Every time I see @doug720 s engine bay I get pangs of envy. That is super sweet and clean looking. When you want to sell, talk to me first.

 

[FJ60Cam]

Speaking for myself, I would rather work a second minimum wage job however many hours it took to buy a new harness vs. the DIY route.

My hat is off to anyone that tackles that, but it is not for me

Ed's harness is probably good, maybe he'll make you a deal!

 

[FJ60Cam]

Every time I see @doug720 s engine bay I get pangs of envy. That is super sweet and clean looking. When you want to sell, talk to me first.

Super clean, that looks factory!

 

[Elbert]

the problem in part is that if you try and low ball everything ....the end result is not going to be that great...unless you can let the truck set for a very long time and you can do most if not all the work yourself. There is no doubt that a TBI swap is the simplest and less costly of the 5.7 engine family in fuel injection mode. A TBI 5.7 is rock solid dependable...but suffers in performance, I sought a TBI engine trans combination when I first considered a swap and I ran out of time looking and found a 5.7 vortec rather easy and now 5.3's are the most common breed of cat.

Get lined up on what you want to do...then plan to attack that position.... simplicity and prior swaps and current availability and part sources should weight heavily. The less pain will be an approach as I mentioned (in my view) 5.3+GM auto trans.... parts prices in the used market are relative to the condition of the parts, the location and other factors.

Pick your engine and transmission and transfercase and then go after those items plus the major parts that make it work...ie adapter for trans to transfercase. You'll get into a endless "do-loop" on debating this or that engine...or whatever. A well documented engine swap thread is worth its weight in gold , plus the ability to ask questions of the swapper and the list of parts they used...etc. Many things have options or multiple approaches.

I don't see how you loose on a 5.3 with GM auto transmission...well proven solution. Very likely a fully functional engine and transmission pair can be sourced cheaply....thousands of pickups running around with that combination plus SUV's. I would avoid bell-housing adapters and any type of adapter to mate a certain transmission to a engine (unless u fully track to that and can do that yourself and fully understand the setup).... I would not mate any type of 4 speed manual transmission to a GM V8 unless you plan on crappy mileage and slow speed transportation, or you are looking for a trail setup.

Stay with the 4 row brass tank type radiator and stay with mechanical fan clutch fan and setup for cooling. Plan on fan shroud fabrication and potentially fabrication/welding for motor mounts setup and or cross-member re-location. Use external fuel pump with AN type hose and fittings, stay away from headers unless something like the OEM corvette type manifolds. Understand any emissions laws where you live related to the swap.

Understand who is going to work on the truck once the swap is done and or you have issues. Don't bet on any toyota shop touching it....

Do not do an engine swap chasing fuel milage.....

 

[cruiser enthuiser]

Every time I see @doug720 s engine bay I get pangs of envy. That is super sweet and clean looking. When you want to sell, talk to me first.

X3

I initially was set on doing a 4bdt swap and doug720's rig was one of the main inspirations. So many appealing things about diesels and that motor in particular. I abandoned the idea after some research. That motor was never going to be an emissions legal swap where I live and this was/is important to me.

Speaking for myself, I would rather work a second minimum wage job however many hours it took to buy a new harness vs. the DIY route.

My hat is off to anyone that tackles that, but it is not for me

Ed's harness is probably good, maybe he'll make you a deal!

My greatest frustration and regret from my swap was the time I put into that harness. I could have had the truck on the road weeks sooner. My previous experience with a TBI harness led me to a false sense of confidence I suppose. Plus, even if my harness had worked out fine the quality of my workmanship was poor next to the Howell.

So, unless your a badass automotive electrical guru, go with a harness from a reputable outfit.

 

[woytovich]

I am BY FAR no expert on this... I'm just in the "asking questions" stage myself... BUT I was told that a good route to go is to buy a good running Buick Roadmaster... use the LT v8, keep the transmission and get the "cheap" AA adapter to the cruiser TC... Does this sound like a decent option?
The Buicks are generally grandpa cars, not beat to snot Camaros etc... often dealer maintained.

 

[NCFJ]

I fully understand wanting to go as cheap as possible. I do not think going with older style TBI style injection or a carb is the way to go to achieve that.. This is my OPINION not carved in stone. The advantages of a multi port fuel injected motor far out weigh the savings you may find. No matter what route you go there is a lot of work as mentioned in many posts above, why not put all that work on a more modern, better platform.

Fact is there are 5.3s scattered in yards all over this country so replacement motors can be found almost anywhere. It will cost a bit more in the wiring department but well worth it. The end game is a truck with a power plant that can be serviced almost anywhere, even a Chevy dealer

A favorite saying of my grandmother was "I can not fathom how people have the time and money to do something over yet do not have the time and money to do it right the first time." Short cuts in the swap process usually equate to repairs in the future, which means more time and money. Buy quality equipment the first time. If it takes another year too save up the difference, so be it.

I'll tell you this much, I average around $10K in parts to do the swaps the way I do them. Keep in mind that I am building for reliability and longevity. The only used, non rebuilt part in the process is a take out motor and I get them with a 1 year parts only warranty. It is different here though as I am building for a customer, but in the process of collecting the exact same parts for my wife's 80 swap. I just do not see a quality swap being done for $5K in parts

A motor swap is like most things in life, you get what you pay for.........