Wandering all over the road

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NeverFinis said:
Can you show how you get these specific angles for your lift examples?
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Sure but if people dont understand trig they are better off just using a digital angle finder and putting it on their panhard.

A = Vertical Separation
B = Horizontal Separation
C = Panhard Length = 41.5"

A = Measure the height from the ground to the center of the axle panhard bolt. Measure the height from the ground to the center of the frame side panhard bolt. Subtract the frame measurement from axle measurement.

Lets use some nice round numbers on a 7" lift as an example, I don't have a 7" lift to get perfect measurements:

Axle = 18
Frame = 26.5"
26.5 - 18 = 8.5"

You can calculate B by taking the square root of C^2 - A^2.

41.5^2 - 8.5^2 = 1722.25 - 72.25 = 1650 = Sqaure root of 1650 = 40.62

So the difference (41.5 - 40.62) in axle position on the horizontal plane of a panhard is .87" or 7/8"

The angle of the panhard is calculated by arcsin(A/C)

Sin^-1(8.5/41.5) = 11.8 degrees

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COS80 said:
It's been a loooong time since I used any of that. Found myself deep deep down the rabbit hole last night.
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lol ya most of us brain dump it after high school or college.
 
JoeCova said:
Sure but if people dont understand trig they are better off just using a digital angle finder and putting it on their panhard.

A = Vertical Separation
B = Horizontal Separation
C = Panhard Length = 41.5"

A = Measure the height from the ground to the center of the axle panhard bolt. Measure the height from the ground to the center of the frame side panhard bolt. Subtract the frame measurement from axle measurement.

Lets use some nice round numbers on a 7" lift as an example, I don't have a 7" lift to get perfect measurements:

Axle = 18
Frame = 26.5"
26.5 - 18 = 8.5"

You can calculate B by taking the square root of C^2 - A^2.

41.5^2 - 8.5^2 = 1722.25 - 72.25 = 1650 = Sqaure root of 1650 = 40.62

So the difference (41.5 - 40.62) in axle position on the horizontal plane of a panhard is .87" or 7/8"

The angle of the panhard is calculated by arcsin(A/C)

Sin^-1(8.5/41.5) = 11.8 degrees

View attachment 4041050
Click to expand...

Thanks. My numbers weren't matching your numbers...

For a 7" lift, you calculate an 8.5" drop from center of bolt to center of bolt. This appears to be inclusive of the OEM drop?

Meaning, the lateral axle movement you are showing isn't just additive to the stock but inclusive of stock. Am I right in this?
 
NeverFinis said:
Thanks. My numbers weren't matching your numbers...

For a 7" lift, you calculate an 8.5" drop from center of bolt to center of bolt. This appears to be inclusive of the OEM drop?

Meaning, the lateral axle movement you are showing isn't just additive to the stock but inclusive of stock. Am I right in this?
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I'm not sure I understand your question but the measurement is the OEM locations. Since I dont have a 7" lift I had to use my cruiser as a baseline with a 3" lift.

So my measurements come back 18" axle, 22.5" frame for 4.5" of separation. The arcin of this is 6.2 degree and confirmed via angle finder. To measure a 7" lift I increased the frame side height by 4" to 26.5" which gave the 8.5" separation.



There will be some variation depending on level vehicle, level ground, how we eyeball the tapemeasure etc.

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JoeCova said:
I'm not sure I understand your question but the measurement is the OEM locations. Since I dont have a 7" lift I had to use my cruiser as a baseline with a 3" lift.

So my measurements come back 18" axle, 22.5" frame for 4.5" of separation. The arcin of this is 6.2 degree and confirmed via angle finder. To measure a 7" lift I increased the frame side height by 4" to 26.5" which gave the 8.5" separation.



There will be some variation depending on level vehicle, level ground, how we eyeball the tapemeasure etc.
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The numbers you are using are inclusive of the stock ride height delta between the two panhard bolts, rather than just purely from the lift itself.

Also, the numbers used appear to be based on your vehicle.

I mean, nothing wrong with any of that but that is why I couldn't match my numbers with yours. I wanted to understand your starting assumptions.

For me, I think just using 7" drop for a 7" lift makes more sense for calculating lateral movements changes due to lift and whether they should be corrected for with a panhard bracket.

I mean, if we are highlighting correcting for the lift alone, or are we correcting for lift and stock ride height as well? There is variability between ride heights on stock vehicles (check some stock numbers here: )

To sum up, the lateral increase in movement, just due to the added lift, are less than what you calculated.

I do think that the arc that that panhard travels at the axle should be as neutral as possible (0° at rest), which should minimize lateral movement in both directions equally as the axle moves up and down. This makes the rear suspension much more predictable for the driver.
 
NeverFinis said:
To sum up, the lateral increase in movement, just due to the added lift, are less than what you calculated.

I do think that the arc that that panhard travels at the axle should be as neutral as possible (0° at rest), which should minimize lateral movement in both directions equally as the axle moves up and down. This makes the rear suspension much more predictable for the driver.
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That’s a really great point. The factory panhard in stock config does not sit at 0 (I assume since I’ve never measured stock) but I was comparing measurements to 0.

There’s probably about 1.5” separation so to your point the change from stock to lift is less that what I posted.

Something to consider as well regarding panhard movement, 0 degrees is ideal but something we haven’t really addressed is actual movement through shock stroke. I think factory is a 50/50 bias but when lifted (without moving shock mounts) might be like 65/35. I think my shocks have 5” up and only 3” down.
 
Here’s a few rainy day pictures. Everything at the house was out of feed so I drove the cruiser to the feed store. The pic is it setting with 500 pound of feed in the back.
As far as the wife goes she’s a trooper. I’ve drug her several hours away to pick up vehicles. She loves road trips. It’s like a used car lot at my house. At any time there’s usually 8 to 10 vehicles in varying conditions. I ride junk around most of the time. As long as she’s got a nice vehicle to ride to work and a truck to haul whatever bull**** she comes up with it’s all good.
On the way home it really feels like the majority of my problem is coming from the rear. Steering is tight. When it moves around I can correct it with very little input from the steering wheel. When it starts fighting from one side to the other it feels like it’s coming from the backend. I need to get her to drive it and let me follow behind her and watch it.

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JoeCova said:
In a world in with made up math yes, but we dont live in that one.

If we calculate the angle for a normal 6" lift its 10.15, for 7" its 11.53"

41.5 * cos (11.53) = 40.66 = between 13/16 and 7/8
41.5 * cos (10.15) = 40.85 = 5/8"

As I said movement of 1/2" is noticable....as the math here says. What do you disagree with?

Ya'll want to spend hundreds of dollars and fight over quarter inches then go right ahead, I'll see myself out.
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I appreciate the conversation taking a technical shift. I'll throw this out there for consideration- with a .25" lateral shift, if you hit a bump that brought the PH bar level, with our 112.2" wheelbase the vehicle would "steer" about 1/8th of a degree (.1277* to be exact). That sounds tiny but at 60 miles an hour it would take just over half a second to travel 50 feet forward and nearly 1.5 feet towards oncoming traffic. Worn bushings or steering components and the crown in the road would make this that much tougher to correct (ask me how I know).

I don't know a good way to estimate the average compression time for a bump like that, but safe to say it would happen quickly-enough so that even for such a little lateral displacement I think it's safe to say the acceleration ("shimmy") would be a nuisance as well. I wil admit this last bit is anecdotal but we're only 1 variable away from putting it in mathematical terms haha
 
That rear axle is rotated way up, putting a ton of stress on components not meant to have stress in that way.

Are you running a CV rear drive shaft?
 
I've never seen such a mess. This truck is a kluge. An immaculately clean kluge (has to be the cleanest 80 I've ever seen??) that some idiot has streeted up into a horrible mall crawler of the worst sort. You're asking for advice, I would advise you to have it towed (it's not safe for a long trip) to a serious Land Cruiser shop somewhere within a few hours of you and tell them to take it back to a decent 2" lift. Have them rip out everything that has been cut, bent, and welded - everything aftermarket, everything designed to put 37" silicone boobs on this potentially gorgeous vehicle, and return it to basically stock configuration. Get some normal wheels and some normal tires. You said you have a garage full of expensive toys you hardly use so this shouldn't be a hardship. What you'll be left with is one of the greatest vehicles ever designed, and it will be in a safe and useful configuration that can take you anywhere in the world. Or you can play with pocket calculators and digital levels and pretend this nightmare is all just an alignment issue.
 
Tennessee Jed said:
I've never seen such a mess. This truck is a kluge. An immaculately clean kluge (has to be the cleanest 80 I've ever seen??) that some idiot has streeted up into a horrible mall crawler of the worst sort. You're asking for advice, I would advise you to have it towed (it's not safe for a long trip) to a serious Land Cruiser shop somewhere within a few hours of you and tell them to take it back to a decent 2" lift. Have them rip out everything that has been cut, bent, and welded - everything aftermarket, everything designed to put 37" silicone boobs on this potentially gorgeous vehicle, and return it to basically stock configuration. Get some normal wheels and some normal tires. You said you have a garage full of expensive toys you hardly use so this shouldn't be a hardship. What you'll be left with is one of the greatest vehicles ever designed, and it will be in a safe and useful configuration that can take you anywhere in the world. Or you can play with pocket calculators and digital levels and pretend this nightmare is all just an alignment issue.
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I think you’re be a little harsh.
I do think ditching the big lift is in order and the 22” wheels.
That being said 80 were made for 37s 🤠
 
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