Wandering all over the road

[TheBussman]

need alignment results, probably don't have enough castor even though you do have plates, adjust the toe in more (higher number) can help a little but it may cause some outside edge tire wear too. You don't have a stock truck so we don't necessarily want to use the stock alignment specs, don't set your expectations too high, 6" lift is alot,

 

[Delta VS]

I always wondered why nobody does a FRONT panhard relocation bracket? It's been a minute since I've been under there but is there no space for that up front or another reason?

at least one guy in Australia does make them, but it's a lot to add, including a much longer front panhard bar. space is also definitely a concern. getting rear flat-ish gets you 95% of your way to good handling (of what panhards can get you, not total obviously), so most find it hard to drop $$$$ to fight that last little bit. along with the misalignment of the steering link and panhard with associated issues that brings.

 

[carwashguy]

Someone else commented on this.

The only thing that can be changed with a typical alignment is toe IN/OUT just about anything else requires aftermarket parts.

7" lift is NEVER going to drive stable IMO
7" lift, so much of this is miles beyond toyota specs. You've got your work cut out for you, and your wallet to bring steering and suspension back to good road manners territory.

You have caster correction plates on standard radius arms.
About the most caster correction you can get with plates is about 5⁰. Any more, and the tire rod well rub on the radius arms (this looks to already be happening).
7" lift will shift caster angles by about 12⁰ (~1.7⁰ per inch of lift).
Standard caster is around 2-3⁰, yours has changed by 12⁰ due to stupid 7" lift, corrected by maybe 5⁰.
3⁰ - 12⁰ = -9⁰
-9⁰ + 5⁰ = -4⁰, aka it's gonna drive like a shopping cart loaded with sackcrete.

With that amount of lift, every millimetre of play in bearings, bushes, steering boxes etc is going to be amplified.

A good start would be reading threads on what it takes to fit 37" tires.
And, search threads talking about Delta VS radius arms @Delta VS

This is why I came onto this forum. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to where I can understand it. I’m sure that a lot of my play is coming from the tie rods hitting the arms. I’m looking at deltas arms now.

 

[Augustiron]

Can I (we) ask why after getting unanimous input that 7" lift is way overkill for anything on an 80 and that it will likely never handle well with just bolt on parts at that height, that you don't consider a more reasonable lift instead of throwing other parts at it?

Are you going mud bogging and putting 44s on,
or just like the look of a sky-jacked truck?

 

[landtank]

IMO the easiest height lift to get working nicely is the 4” lift. Mainly because caster and driveline angles converge at that height.

I’d buy a set of 4” springs and then go from there.

 

[JoeCova]

I always wondered why nobody does a FRONT panhard relocation bracket? It's been a minute since I've been under there but is there no space for that up front or another reason?

As others said, the panhard needs to be the same length and angle as the drag link otherwise you'll experience bumpsteer. You can get away with the length and angle being a degree or two off but otherwise need to be parallel. Raising the drag link such as a high steer conversion would also require the panhard to be raised.

The next question is why are only 80 series chasing flat panhards and why is Delta the only company that makes a bracket?

The short answer is it it's a completely moot upgrade. Delta obviously wants to sell these but when you calculate the geometry the difference between the bracket and factory location is 1 degree of the roll axis, it drops your rear roll center by a couple of inches which translates to no real noticeable driving differences.

What people are actually experiencing is simply the improvement of recentering the axle, the rear axle being slightly off center or off track from the front even 1/2" will be very noticeable impacting braking, wondering, rear steer, etc. Same thing is accomplished by a panhard that centers the axle.

 

[carwashguy]

The rig was BOUGHT the way it is right now. I’m not bogging it or rock climbing with it. It was too clean for me to pass up. I understand that the lift is not ideal. It’s just where it’s at right now. I’m weighing my options. If a new set of arms will make it driveable that’s an option. If I need to drop it down to say 24 to get it drivable that’s may be what I have to do. To me it’s another toy in the garage to enjoy on the rare weekend I’m home. It will never be a daily driver. I just want it to be fun to drive. Right now it is not. I’m not looking for the cheap fix. I’m looking for the correct fix. Does that make sense. Sorry for the rambling. Past my bed time lol.

 

[SpenserAK]

In my mind, you simply have two major options..

Put time & money into trying to make the unnecessarily tall lift feel okay, in which case you still end up with an unnecessarily tall lift - which has drawbacks even if you can get it set up well.

Or

Swap in a reasonable lift, which by nature corrects a variety of the problems you're currently facing. Easier to fine-tune, truck handles well, better center of gravity, looks better...

"Do it once; do it right"

 

[FIDO96]

The rig was BOUGHT the way it is right now. I’m not bogging it or rock climbing with it. It was too clean for me to pass up. I understand that the lift is not ideal. It’s just where it’s at right now. I’m weighing my options. If a new set of arms will make it driveable that’s an option. If I need to drop it down to say 24 to get it drivable that’s may be what I have to do. To me it’s another toy in the garage to enjoy on the rare weekend I’m home. It will never be a daily driver. I just want it to be fun to drive. Right now it is not. I’m not looking for the cheap fix. I’m looking for the correct fix. Does that make sense. Sorry for the rambling. Past my bed time lol.

I’m pushing $45K in additional dollars on a 97 LC I initially paid $14k 11 months ago. Best dollars I spent that changed the overall fun factor was the @Delta VS Radius Arms and panhard bracket. It made it go from someone’s DIY project to a useable & safe rig.

Scrap the oversized wheels & lift and you’ll be much happier. Don’t fall for sizzle when buying a steak.

 

[NeverFinis]

I mean, 7" lift and 22" inch rims. Seems ideal.... /s

That LSPV extension bracket...

Those upper rear arms have a ton of thread showing....

The next question is why are only 80 series chasing flat panhards and why is Delta the only company that makes a bracket?

Not the only company: https://eimkeith.com/products/80-series-landcruiser-panhard-correction-kit-pck

 

[60 toy ota]

As others said, the panhard needs to be the same length and angle as the drag link otherwise you'll experience bumpsteer. You can get away with the length and angle being a degree or two off but otherwise need to be parallel. Raising the drag link such as a high steer conversion would also require the panhard to be raised.

The next question is why are only 80 series chasing flat panhards and why is Delta the only company that makes a bracket?

The short answer is it it's a completely moot upgrade. Delta obviously wants to sell these but when you calculate the geometry the difference between the bracket and factory location is 1 degree of the roll axis, it drops your rear roll center by a couple of inches which translates to no real noticeable driving differences.

What people are actually experiencing is simply the improvement of recentering the axle, the rear axle being slightly off center or off track from the front even 1/2" will be very noticeable impacting braking, wondering, rear steer, etc. Same thing is accomplished by a panhard that centers the axle.

Deltas not the only company and the 80 isn't the only vehicle with this type of issue and solution. Basically all Toyotas with a solid rear, and I've never looked into other makes.

You ought to research this. The theory is sound and users attest to the results. Moreover, restoring a proper panhard angle with a bracket DOES recenter the rear axles position

 

[JoeCova]

Deltas not the only company and the 80 isn't the only vehicle with this type of issue and solution. Basically all Toyotas with a solid rear, and I've never looked into other makes.

You ought to research this. The theory is sound and users attest to the results. Moreover, restoring a proper panhard angle with a bracket DOES recenter the rear axles position

Haha, maybe read my post completely before replying, just makes you look silly.

I ran the geometry on the panhard which is exactly why I know what I’m talking about but go ahead and just parrot ignorance.

Maybe learn some math after doing some of your own research

 

[60 toy ota]

Haha, maybe read my post completely before replying, just makes you look silly.

I ran the geometry on the panhard which is exactly why I know what I’m talking about but go ahead and just parrot ignorance.

Maybe learn some math after doing some of your own research

Haha ok buddy. You're totally right

 

[JoeCova]

Haha ok buddy. You're totally right

Indeed, that’s why I immediately sold my bracket after purchase when running the math.

Go ahead and prove my math wrong. I’ll wait.

LC80 with 2.5” lift.
1 degree roll center shift.
2.8” rear roll center drop.
1.2” front roll center drop.

 

[Delta VS]

As others said, the panhard needs to be the same length and angle as the drag link otherwise you'll experience bumpsteer. You can get away with the length and angle being a degree or two off but otherwise need to be parallel. Raising the drag link such as a high steer conversion would also require the panhard to be raised.

The next question is why are only 80 series chasing flat panhards and why is Delta the only company that makes a bracket?

The short answer is it it's a completely moot upgrade. Delta obviously wants to sell these but when you calculate the geometry the difference between the bracket and factory location is 1 degree of the roll axis, it drops your rear roll center by a couple of inches which translates to no real noticeable driving differences.

What people are actually experiencing is simply the improvement of recentering the axle, the rear axle being slightly off center or off track from the front even 1/2" will be very noticeable impacting braking, wondering, rear steer, etc. Same thing is accomplished by a panhard that centers the axle.

Many, many people have reported much better handling post install. Folks who have first spent thousands on correcting caster, all new bushings, new steering box, yada yada…

Longer panhard tube fixes one problem and introduces another. Panhard bracket fixes two issues, creates none. When offsetting the axle to one side (via longer/adjustable panhard) to fix tracking at ride height, it now becomes a potential interference issue when articulating. Obviously, as you lift more, it becomes more of an issue. The two parts are almost equal in cost, why not solve two things instead of one?

 

[JoeCova]

Many, many people have reported much better handling post install. Folks who have first spent thousands on correcting caster, all new bushings, new steering box, yada yada…

Longer panhard tube fixes one problem and introduces another. Panhard bracket fixes two issues, creates none. When offsetting the axle to one side (via longer/adjustable panhard) to fix tracking at ride height, it now becomes a potential interference issue when articulating. Obviously, as you lift more, it becomes more of an issue. The two parts are almost equal in cost, why not solve two things instead of one?

They will because the axle is recentered….as I already said.

But a longer panhard bar does not introduce a new problem in fact longer panhard bars are mathematically better than shorter ones. The longer panhard solves the chief handling issue with the axle being off center.

There is no interference issues by increasing the panhard length to recenter the axle at ride height, however the Delta bracket absolutely does cause interference requiring bump stop extensions (The only one of the two that actually introduces a "new problem.")

I'm not saying the Delta bracket doesn’t solve a problem, I'm simply saying it solves the same problem. People should be made aware of the options available to them instead of constantly pushed about a product as the only viable solution.

I can't really speak on price given I can build a panhard with FK heims or JJs with quarter wall DOM for less thn $200. I could go ultra cheap and use bushings or two-piece Heims and build a panhard for less than $100....

 

[Delta VS]

They will because the axle is recentered….as I already said.

But a longer panhard bar does not introduce a new problem in fact longer panhard bars are mathematically better than shorter ones. The longer panhard solves the chief handling issue with the axle being off center.

There is no interference issues by increasing the panhard length to recenter the axle at ride height, however the Delta bracket absolutely does cause interference requiring bump stop extensions (The only one of the two that actually introduces a "new problem.")

I'm not saying the Delta bracket doesn’t solve a problem, I'm simply saying it solves the same problem. People should be made aware of the options available to them instead of constantly pushed about a product as the only viable solution.

I can't really speak on price given I can build a panhard with FK heims or JJs with quarter wall DOM for less thn $200. I could go ultra cheap and use bushings or two-piece Heims and build a panhard for less than $100....

Okey-dokey

 

[FIDO96]

Indeed, that’s why I immediately sold my bracket after purchase when running the math.

Go ahead and prove my math wrong. I’ll wait.

LC80 with 2.5” lift.
1 degree roll center shift.
2.8” rear roll center drop.
1.2” front

They will because the axle is recentered….as I already said.

But a longer panhard bar does not introduce a new problem in fact longer panhard bars are mathematically better than shorter ones. The longer panhard solves the chief handling issue with the axle being off center.

There is no interference issues by increasing the panhard length to recenter the axle at ride height, however the Delta bracket absolutely does cause interference requiring bump stop extensions (The only one of the two that actually introduces a "new problem.")

I'm not saying the Delta bracket doesn’t solve a problem, I'm simply saying it solves the same problem. People should be made aware of the options available to them instead of constantly pushed about a product as the only viable solution.

I can't really speak on price given I can build a panhard with FK heims or JJs with quarter wall DOM for less thn $200. I could go ultra cheap and use bushings or two-piece Heims and build a panhard for less than $100....

I respect the tenacity, but pretty sure this group is going to side with the guys who engineer, build and sell their stuff to those who end up posting rave reviews and recommending their stuff to others. Why? Because it works. And it’s superior quality. And badass decals come in the box.

 

[JoeCova]

I respect the tenacity, but pretty sure this group is going to side with the guys who engineer, build and sell their stuff to those who end up posting rave reviews and recommending their stuff to others. Why? Because it works. And it’s superior quality. And badass decals come in the box.

True, Jiffy Lube made a lot of money convincing everyone they needed 3,000-mile oil changes, doesn't mean Jiffy Lube knows better, but they made a successful business out of it.

Every one of my rigs is running custom axles and suspension that I engineered and built so I'm slightly more informed than the average consumer, so people like me need more than an anecdotal sales pitch.

 

[White Stripe]

Without alignment specs can't help much. Does the alignment shop not have a cell phone with a camera to take a picture of the alignment settings?