Wandering all over the road

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My .02 is castor angle & lift height followed by replacing all of your suspension bushings. My rig had worn out bushings, and as I slowly got all of them pressed out & replaced, the more stable the rig was out on the road. It was really unstable when I first picked it up. Just because the bushings don't look bad when assembled means nothing. It's amazing how obviously bad they look once they are unbolted and inspected.
 
carwashguy said:
The shop that does all of my sketchy alignment jobs more than likely doesn’t have a printer honestly. I’ll measure it out in a day or two.
I dont have any history on this vehicle so I’m shooting blind. I believe the frame and all suspension components are fairly new. It’s almost like the body and motor was set on this frame. The frame is still shiny. Not a spec of rust anywhere. Transmission crossmember looks like it came off of a 30 year old truck. Frame is slick like it came from the showroom a few weeks ago. Was the land cruisers part of the frame recall like the tacomas?
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No, Land Cruisers were not part of a frame recall. I don't understand what you're saying about the underside. The frame looks great but the transmission crossmember looks old?
You might be able to get some vehicle history info from a carfax report. Previous owner knows nothing about it?
Did you test drive before buying, deciding the lack of rust made it worthwhile despite the terrible handling?

I would argue that despite the lack of rust this vehicle is far from "clean" because it's highly modified and these modifications have rendered it practically undriveable.
X2 on the suggestions to bring it back closer to earth.
An alignment shop that doesn't give you a printout of the numbers is worthless IMO. Basically a rip off.
 
I drove the rig for probably 40 miles prior to purchase. It wasn’t a spur of the moment purchase. It was almost a month of my wife and I driving back and forth 4 times I believe before I pulled the trigger and brought it home.
I am fairly mechanically inclined and will tackle most anything I think I can fix. The sketchy wandering all over I’m sure can be fixed.
Rust on the other hand I’ve learned my lesson on some tacomas and 4 runners. I won’t drag a rusty one home anymore. Been there done that. Move on.
The reason I asked about the frame is because it looks new. Not a sanded on painted frame. I’ve seen those. Done a few in the garage. This frame is mint. As far as I can tell the only piece that is aftermarket is passenger fender. The tranny crossmember is not new or freshly painted. It’s what you would expect after almost 30 years. That’s why I asked if it was part of the recall.
I spent a minute working in the local Toyota dealership during that recall. We had a stack of raw frames laying out back to put in. Talk about a nightmare. That made me decide on a new career path.
The local tire shop that done my alignment has never gave me a printout on anything they’ve ever done. Didn’t know it was a thing. I’ve always pulled it on the rack. Mounted the sensor on the steering wheel for them and fetched wrenches for them. I very seriously doubt they are scamming me. I can watch the screen and see every adjustment they do.
With all that being said it sounds like a 4 inch lift is as tall as anybody suggests. With what’s on there already could i just buy new shocks and springs to get it down to an ACCEPTABLE height? And then start working on the wandering around.
 
JoeCova said:
They will because the axle is recentered….as I already said.

But a longer panhard bar does not introduce a new problem in fact longer panhard bars are mathematically better than shorter ones. The longer panhard solves the chief handling issue with the axle being off center.

There is no interference issues by increasing the panhard length to recenter the axle at ride height, however the Delta bracket absolutely does cause interference requiring bump stop extensions (The only one of the two that actually introduces a "new problem.")

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I'm not saying the Delta bracket doesn’t solve a problem, I'm simply saying it solves the same problem. People should be made aware of the options available to them instead of constantly pushed about a product as the only viable solution.

I can't really speak on price given I can build a panhard with FK heims or JJs with quarter wall DOM for less thn $200. I could go ultra cheap and use bushings or two-piece Heims and build a panhard for less than $100....
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It not just about roll center 🤪
 
This a great site but just like everything on the net you have to be able to pick the right solution.
There’s just as much bad information as good.

When you get back down to about 3-4” of lift you can get it to drive nice again.
Just like others have said.

The Delta arms are nice but even those are not going to get your caster back where it needs to be with 7” of lift.
With a lower lift caster plates work well at a fraction of the cost.
And there’s new players to the game with the arms.

If you do decide to get a new set of springs keep in mind that across the board 80 lift springs give more lift than advertised.
My guess is you have a 6” lift that’s giving 7” of lift.
 
Agree with what others have suggested. If the suspension is that clean you could look at the springs and hopefully pull some identification to know what springs (lift and weight) are installed. Also, when you get into working on it the sway bar bushings look bad and you can see they are no longer riding where they used to. In addition, it might be the camera angle (post #9) but one of the drop brackets looks bent and/or rewelded.

IMHO, I would also advise to do a cost comparison of a Dobinson 4" lift kit versus the 6" Delta arms. Bringing the truck down would be more ideal and the price point is comparatively close between the two options. Most of the aftermarket parts shown in the pictures should be able to be reused with the lower lift as well.
 
Summary: Getting rid of 7" coil springs may immediately fix most of your problems. The shocks may be perfect for 3" or 4" springs.

BTW, I have a 3.5" lift in the rear and the Delta panhard relocation bracket made a huge difference in rear end wiggle on and offroad. Combined with a whiteline HD swaybar in the rear, it handles fantastic.
 
I didn't read everything but what does "white knuckle" mean? As in, are we talking Death Wobble crap your pants sort of thing or really crappy wandering all over the road? I'd be curious to see what the caster number ended up after the plates were added. I'd venture to guess the following items need to be addressed if not already:
- I'd replace ALL suspension bushings. This includes the panhard bushings as well. You can't tell their condition by just looking at them.
-preload on the trunion bearings should be checked.
-I'd torque all suspension hardware while all four wheels on the ground. Use the FSM to notice that the flanged hardware have four biting edges so don't turn them.
- your rear axle housing doesn't appear to be centered based on the pic below. It could be optical illusin. Still, it doesn't make you wander, just crab sideways like an old Chevy.
- your lift may require more money thrown at it, so lower the lift down to 4".
- the rear UCA links are adjusted out by a quite a bit. Seems excessive and feels unsafe to me.
-in addition to the rear adj panhard rod, you can hugely benefit from a bracket that raises the connection at the axle housing. I have the Delta bracket made for a 3" lift.

Good luck with this rabbit hole. Oh, I also want to meet the wife that approved the purchase of a 7" lifted 80 on 22s. You, my good man, are an excellent Bser. :flipoff2:

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Here's a great video on how a pan hard bar should be set up. As you can see in the video the bar should be level at ride height. This is important to keep side to side movement to a minimum.
With a 7" lift and no Pan Hard correction the body will see a lot of movement because of the extreme angle of the pan hard bar, in the video you see the axle moving but with the tires on the ground in real life the body will see the movement. This is what you feel when you hit a bump and why people say the feel a noticeable improvement in ride after installing a pan hard relocation bracket.
Also making it longer to center the axle will push the axle to the drivers side more during full stuff or driver side stuff possibly making tire to body contact and or body damage.
IMO PRBs work great even with a modest 3" lift like I have. I prefer the weld on style offered from @jkeithw. For me the biggest improvement was in high speed sand wash stuff, but I don't drive mine much on the street.

In short I disagree in what Joe is saying here.
JoeCova said:
The short answer is it it's a completely moot upgrade. Delta obviously wants to sell these but when you calculate the geometry the difference between the bracket and factory location is 1 degree of the roll axis, it drops your rear roll center by a couple of inches which translates to no real noticeable driving differences.


What people are actually experiencing is simply the improvement of recentering the axle, the rear axle being slightly off center or off track from the front even 1/2" will be very noticeable impacting braking, wondering, rear steer, etc. Same thing is accomplished by a panhard that centers the axle. :rofl:
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Broski said:

Here's a great video on how a pan hard bar should be set up. As you can see in the video the bar should be level at ride height. This is important to keep side to side movement to a minimum.
With a 7" lift and no Pan Hard correction the body will see a lot of movement because of the extreme angle of the pan hard bar, in the video you see the axle moving but with the tires on the ground in real life the body will see the movement. This is what you feel when you hit a bump and why people say the feel a noticeable improvement in ride after installing a pan hard relocation bracket.
Also making it longer to center the axle will push the axle to the drivers side more during full stuff or driver side stuff possibly making tire to body contact and or body damage.
IMO PRBs work great even with a modest 3" lift like I have. I prefer the weld on style offered from @jkeithw. For me the biggest improvement was in high speed sand wash stuff, but I don't drive mine much on the street.

In short I disagree in what Joe is saying here.
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I’ll let ya know the next time my extended panhard causes issues with tire stuff and body damage. 🙄

Don’t hold your breathe anytime soon.

We agree to disagree, I trust the math over anecdotes.
 
JoeCova said:
I’ll let ya know the next time my extended panhard causes issues with tire stuff and body damage. 🙄

Don’t hold your breathe anytime soon.

We agree to disagree, I trust the math over anecdotes.
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And your body can walk back and forth over the bumps. I don't think you even watched the video 🤪
 
COS80 said:
I'd like to see this math.
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OK lets start simple with axle position.

Factory panhard is 41.5"
Angle of panhard on a 3" lift is 6 degree.
41.5 * cos(6) - 41.25"

That means the difference in axle position at ride height from stock to 3" shifts the axle less than a quarter in, its .227 or whatever to be exact.

Take your panhard and multiple it by the cosign of the panhard angle.
 
Broski said:
And it's still at 6* after you make it 1/4" longer
The OP is setting at 7" of lift so at least 13* on the pan hard bar = way more wagging the tail !
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In a world in with made up math yes, but we dont live in that one.

If we calculate the angle for a normal 6" lift its 10.15, for 7" its 11.53"

41.5 * cos (11.53) = 40.66 = between 13/16 and 7/8
41.5 * cos (10.15) = 40.85 = 5/8"

As I said movement of 1/2" is noticable....as the math here says. What do you disagree with?

Ya'll want to spend hundreds of dollars and fight over quarter inches then go right ahead, I'll see myself out.
 
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Broski said:
Your missing the point 🤷‍♂️ if the pan hard is not flat you get a lot of movement.
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Math it out for me and let me know what "a lot of movement" is.

I said 1/2" is noticeable, yet you balked at it, what argument are you trying to make? You state you disagree but so far have agreed.
 
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@carwashguy :

How about a few overall pics of the truck from the side and wider shots straight from the side of the frame and suspension.

We all need more to argue/bitch about so we want to use yours.

I like your attitude on making it "right".

Once the line of 4" lift is crossed, fixing the driveability costs go up exponentially for each inch of lift.

No one has mentioned your front driveshaft angle and if you have a double cardan front or rear shaft. Does your front shaft grind on the sway bar?
Are your drive shafts in or out of phase correctly? You haven't been able to drive it at speed or distance to even determine these answers yet because you didn't know it was a thing.

I wish you luck and hopefully us monkeys can see past ourselves to assist you properly.
We have no problems spending your money!

There are folks that have achieved this amount of lift, but it's typically done with triangulated three link suspension, high steer kits or Dana 60 front axles and an ENORMOUS amount of money and work.

Work your way through it, ask questions, search and read a ton, and take the opinions with a grain of salt. We will push you down, kick you, then help you back up again.
 
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