Too Much Grease in Drive Shaft?

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I have some Schaeffer's #238 Ultra Supreme #2 I plan on using.

Schaeffer Lubricants | Supreme Moly Grease

It has four different solid lubricants so I am expecting good performance in this application.

- Molybdenum Disulfide 5%
- Antimony Dithiocarbamate 1-3%
- Graphite 1-3%
- Teflon 1-3%

I'll report back when I see how it runs.

I am currently running Amsoil GHD, EP HD Synthetic Lithium Complex Grease Moly Fortified, NGLI #2 with good results.

AMSOIL - Synthetic Heavy-Duty Grease (GHD)
 
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Tinkerer, great post and good analysis...

Can you tell us what brand of grease you used. My u-joints and splines are due for lube & I wanna' get to it over the 3-day weekend.

Thanks:clap:

Steve

Valvoline "DuraBlend Moly-Fortified Synthetic Blend Grease" See

Valvoline.com > Products > Grease Gear Oil > Grease > DuraBlend® Synthetic Blend Grease

(That reminds me - I'm overdue to lube the driveshafts myself! Forgot all about 'em when the clunking stopped a few years ago. :) )
 
One more suggestion about overgreasing the rear spline joint:

I'd do it with vehicle at nominal height.

(If done with rear suspension fully dropped/extended, the spline joint will be fully extended. This will cause the internal cavity to be at max volume, requiring more grease to fill to drive grease into the splines and also leaving more grease in the cavity that will be driven out past seal under pressure during service about nominal height.)
 
Just reading about this tonight and scanning through the repair manual, on MA-10 at the top it mentions to use Lithium base chassis grease (NLGI no. 2) for the spider and yoke zircs. (need to do this on mine, as I have a clunk and some other noises, will do it at the same time I hose clamp the cat converter heat shield....) and PR-7 mentions using MP, thanks for clarifying Tinkerer.



I had the infamous clunk a few seconds after starting to roll from a stop.

First I tried greasing with some generic grease, just a few pumps into the driveshaft spline slip joints (but not overgreasing) plus routine u-joint greasing. Still clunked.

Then I took the rear spline apart because the clunk seemed to be from the rear. There was nothing apparently wrong, some grease inside. But the grease in the spline area seemed somewhat thin, perhaps a result of separation in service.

So I cleaned the spline slip joint internals and put it back together, and greased it again with generic grease, directly on the splines prior to assembly and also a few pumps into the zirk. This seemed to reduce the clunk somewhat, but after a couple weeks it started coming back.

So finally, I overgreased the spline/slip joints with moly grease thru the zirks, until grease was visibly spooging out past the lip seal. This cured the clunk. Have not heard the clunk for a few years now, have not regreased.

Thoughts:

1. The Toyota factory service manual (for LX) says to grease until grease is seen escaping past seals. This may mean it is actually a proper service technique that causes no harm (if manual is correct). Page PR-7:

"HINT: After installation, pump MP grease into each fitting with a grease gun until the grease begins to flow around the oil seal."

(I think "MP" means "multipurpose". This is evidently where Toyota missed it, regarding the need to use moly in this application.)

2. The splines are evidently prone to "stiction": When vehicle is stopped, idling in D and held by brakes, the static angular (torsion) driveshaft load sets the splines semi-stuck together in a nominal axial (driveshaft length) position (due to neutral height of rear end). As soon as vehicle starts to accelerate, rolling from stopped position, the spline contact force increases due to angular (torsion) forces in the driveshaft, at the same time sliding forces between splines increase as the rear driveshaft is compressed by the rear end being forced down as vehicle starts to accelerate. If there is inadequate lubrication in the splines to prevent stiction, they will momentarly stick (static friction) then break free and slide (dynamic friction). This causes the clunk. The solution is to get enough lubrication between spline sliding surfaces to prevent stiction. ("Enough" also means "correct" lubrication - MOLY.)

3. Greasing with only a few pumps does not really force much (if any) grease into the spline area. It may only put a few dollops of grease into the cavity at the end of the internal shaft, with very little (or no) grease being forced into the splines. Therefore greasing must be overgreasing, until grease spooges out past the seal. This will completely fill the cavity and force some grease into the spline area, and also, additional grease will slowly work its way into the splines over time in service helping to keep the splines greased.

Regarding concerns about axial (thrust) force increasing due to overgreasing, and possible resulting damage to bearings in tranny/tcase/differential: (a) The slip joints already exert significant thrust force in service because they are sealed so well that they act like air springs due to air trapped in slip joint cavity, so overgreasing does not create thrust forces where none exist without overgreasing, and (b) the tranny/tcase and differential input bearings will already include thrust bearing provision in their design, because this is a common design factor. As noted I've been running overgreased for a few years now with absolutely no resulting problems.

4. Moly grease MUST be used to alleviate the clunk problem. (Caution: Moly is toxic, don't eat the grease.)

Tinkerer's .02 worth. (Nearly a dissertation but a simple problem really.)
 
A few thoughts after getting under the truck and doing this yesterday.

- When operating properly (grease seal allowing flow) there will be air in the yoke. As the shaft moves in the slide it displaces both grease and air. Later when it compresses it will expel grease and suck in air (or water) when it returns to extention.
- When filling the rear DS I got some extension then it vented an air pocket with a slight shudder. Expansion,vent, retraction several times. I continued to fill with until I got a good flow of clean grease through the seal. - With the rear shaft this was a lot of pumps. Twenty plus.
- Bring some newspaper or cardboard to catch dripping grease. Don't under grease just to spare a driveway spot.

- The front shaft was a bit neglected since removing the "Engine under cover" is a pain.
- Getting into the spider grease fittings on the front shaft is a bear. The fittings need to be facing directly down for decent access and a fighting chance at attaching with a standard grease gun head. A standard grease gun head will fit.
- A press fit attachment was no help and just made a mess.
- Remember that the shaft rotates 4.10 times for each rotation of the tire. That means if you want to rotate the fitting 90 degrees then you should only let the tire rotate 1/16th of a rotation.
- If the fittings are not straight down then move the truck until they are.

- Remember to inspect the propeller shaft bolts while you are underneath. I have not retorqued mine since they all seem factory tight with assembly markings intact. With broken marks I would retorque.
 
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I did front & rear yokes & shaft splines this afternoon. Tinkerer, thanks for the inspiration.

NMuzj100, my experience with the rear shaft was similar to yours...I used a Craftsman chinese pneumatic grease gun w/ moly grease, it took 20-30 seconds before I had good even flow around the splined shaft. The front gave me even flow in about half the time.

I had the ach set to high for access under the lx, I had the transfer case in neutral with blocks on both sides front and rear of the end that was not being lubed...that allowed me to position the shafts by hand.

After greasing, I took her for about a 2 mile run down smooth highway in the normal height mode followed by a 25-30 mph run down a dirt road with a few potholes and some whoop-de-doo's...afterward both seals showed a small but even grease bead maybe 3/16" in depth at the seal ends. Lowering the truck to low got me a tiny bit more.

Steve
 
A few thoughts after getting under the truck and doing this yesterday.

- When operating properly (grease seal allowing flow) there will be air in the yoke. As the shaft moves in the slide it displaces both grease and air. Later when it compresses it will expel grease and suck in air (or water) when it return to extention.
- When filling the rear DS I got some extension then it vented an air pocket with a slight shudder. Expansion,vent, retraction several times. I continued to fill with until I got a good flow of clean grease through the seal. - With the rear shaft this was a lot of pumps. Twenty plus.
- Bring some newspaper or cardboard to catch dripping grease. Don't under grease just to spare a driveway spot.

- The front shaft was a bit neglected since removing the "Engine under cover" is a pain.
- Getting into the spider grease fittings on the front shaft is a bear. The fittings need to be facing directly down for decent access and a fighting chance at attaching with a standard grease gun head. A standard grease gun head will fit.
- A press fit attachment was no help and just made a mess.
- Remember that the shaft rotates 4.10 times for each rotation of the tire. That means if you want to rotate the fitting 90 degrees then you should only let the tire rotate 1/16th of a rotation.
- If the fittings are not straight down then move the truck until they are.

- Remember to inspect the propeller shaft bolts while you are underneath. I have not retorqued mine since they all seem factory tight with assembly markings intact. With broken marks I would retorque.

I suspect that the lip seal is so well sealed that the amount of air/water/etc that gets sucked past the seal into the cavity when driveshaft is extended is negligible.

When I had my rear shaft apart and put it back together, it held air pressurized inside the spline cavity, and felt like an air spring. I left it sitting assembled, held pressed together but unconnected to rearend input flange for at least 24 hours. When I returned a day later to connect it to the rearend it still had about the same amount of air under pressure as it did the previous day. Still felt like an air spring.

This implies that the seal is extremely well sealed, especially with grease present in the wiping lip area as it should be. IIRC it is a double-lip design, with a depression between the two lips designed to hold a slight amount of grease.

The front shaft slip joint lube is not as vital as the rear shaft, methinks. The front shaft length will not change much in operation except for incidental vibration-caused slight movement of the front diff vs. the tcase, and maybe thermal effects, and the slip joint just needs to accomodate such very slight length changes.

The rear changes length in operation more than the front, but even the rear doesn't change length much. (I haven't measured it.) But the rear is the site of the "clunk" if not lubed properly. :)
 
Thanks for the grease advice. I crawled under my 80 today and pumped a whole tube in the shafts, spider gears and fronk knuckels. I just bought it and as it had 190,000 miles was not sure the last lube job was done recently. Was worried I also put too much in the shafts as I did not see any oozing out but did notice the shafts move after 12 pumps or so. Was worried I had put too much in but now feel alot better about the whole thing. Oh, and I used a tube of Penzoil Marine Premium grease. No my choice but it was free and figured the "salt water protection" couldn't hurt as I take it to the beach often.
 
I greased the driveshafts for the first time the other day on my '02. The u-joints were lubed until the old grease pushed out past the seals. The slip yokes were greased until I noticed that the shafts started to extend maybe an 1/8". I didn't notice any old grease push past the seals at this point. It was starting to get dark so I wrapped it up for the night so I could head into work. I drove the truck for about 80 miles round trip on the freeway. This is when I searched and found a thread on the 80 forum.

This afternoon, I removed the zerks associated with the slip yokes on both shafts. The rear didn't ooze anything out until I jounced the rear suspension. I think it spewed about a 3/4" long rope of grease. The front shaft was a different story. As soon as I removed the zerk fitting, 4-5" of grease oozed out. The front shaft must have been under a good amount of longitudinal loading. I'm really glad I pulled the zerks to relieve the pressure.

I then zip tied a piece of blue shop napkin covering the opening of each zerk and drove around to push out any additional grease from the shafts. Once I got home from driving under various bumps and speeds, I removed the napkins to see how much additional grease had oozed out. The rear pushed out about a nickel diameter worth of grease, nothing substantial came from the front.

Hopefully nothing was damaged by over-greasing the shafts. Time will tell.
 
Just to confirm... are there any needle bearings within the slip joint on our driveshafts? I'm assuming it's just splines.
 
Just to confirm... are there any needle bearings within the slip joint on our driveshafts? I'm assuming it's just splines.

Just a splined shaft and machined receiver of sorts. There are, as you probably know, a couple thoughts on when to stop pumping grease into a u-joint or similar cavity. Some say just to push a little grease in on regular intervals so NOT to push grease past the seal. Sort of a leap of faith thing. But the reasoning for this method is it keeps contaminants from being attracted by the overflow grease, via the method most of us use (because we just gotta see the grease coming out to know we've thoroughly done our job ;)).

Whereas most of us probably find it more reassuring to pump until we see the new grease exit the seal area. The problem with this, some say, has to do with the grease trail being a more efficient trail for contaminants to more easily get back into the bearing surfaces.
 
not sure I get that argument, really. The dirt will cause more wear if there is grease outside the enclosed area than if it's dry?

Seems to me that the main controversy was more the fear of putting too much grease behind a clogged up seal with the resulting overpressure consequences.
 
moly or not

I have a friend who told me last weekend about the product called Green Grease. Check this link out: Green Grease....The Best Grease Money Can Buy!....Just ask anyone who has used it!.....

He swears by it. He uses it on his 4Runner and says many of his friends does the same. What you think?

I'm thinking, since I'm using similar kind of grease for my bike called Phil Wood Grease. Green and waterproof as well. Me think ok?
 
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not sure I get that argument, really. The dirt will cause more wear if there is grease outside the enclosed area than if it's dry?

Seems to me that the main controversy was more the fear of putting too much grease behind a clogged up seal with the resulting overpressure consequences.

Sorry...just a general FYI for joint type seals: U-joints specifically in this case.
 
I have a friend who told me last weekend about the product called Green Grease. Check this link out: Green Grease....The Best Grease Money Can Buy!....Just ask anyone who has used it!.....

He swears by it. He uses it on his 4Runner and says many of his friends does the same. What you think?

I'm thinking, since I'm using similar kind of grease for my bike called Phil Wood Grease. Green and waterproof as well. Me think ok?

I second the use of Green Grease. My number one choice for u-joints and splines. Use way less then any other I have tried. Not sure if I would use it a wheel bearing. You can definitely feel the add resistance of the Green Greases tacky thickness.
 
like motor oil, there seems to be as many philosophies about grease as there are members of mud :cheers:

my experience so far is this: i decided to use mobil1 grease just to see if it would have he desired effect (lubricate drive line and eliminate clunk) versus loading a separate gun with moly. i applied it to the point of expunging grease for all fitting locations last spring. clunk disappeared. i am pumping once or twice per zerk (until grease begins to expunge) at each oil filter change, 5k miles. seems to work. i will try another grease if i get a clunk back :)
 
Looks like a average to good grease with "As seen on TV" marketing. For the price you can get a name brand "top of the line" grease

No Moly in it which the Slip Yoke needs. I would go with something else.

Green Grease got POLY in it. My understanding POLY and MOLY is the same difference. Just different properties. An alternative to MOLY.
 
Green Grease got POLY in it. My understanding POLY and MOLY is the same difference. Just different properties. An alternative to MOLY.

Not true. But they do rhyme.

Poly (short for Polymer) is a thickener/tackifier that makes the grease stick where it is supposed to and resist washout.

Moly (short for Molybdenum disulfate) is a solid lubricant that operates at extreme pressure when the oil has been pushed out of the lubricated surface by the extreme pressure. It acts like graphite but won't burn or degrade at high temps like graphite.
 
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I found by taking out the propeller shafts and cleaning it really good. Then reassembling with Amsoil GHD #1 w/moly grease (which is lighter than the #2 grease) worked well, free up the seal a bit and stopped the thump/clunk. I ran with #1 for the next couple of lubes, then started adding #2 w/moly. No problem for last 30,000 miles, so I'm happy.

The idea was to use the thinner grease to get the seals to loosen up and let the grease get past them, which worked well on one shaft. The other shaft actually has a small amount grease squirting out the rear plate (metal seal at end of shaft nearest the U-joint) while lubing. I do have some minor concerns with this squirting out the back plate. But, I have learned a fix (secret fix) used at the Lexus Dealer for the thump issue; is to drill a very small hole in this plate, this is to relieve pressure and allow the shaft to move as intended. It's seem stiction is not as big a problem with the 100s, as is the seals are just to darn good (tight). Using a thicker grease may just make the issue worst, i believe thinner and lubing more often is the best practice and the moly for added protection with the less often stiction issue.

One more tip from the shop Foreman at Toyota Dealer; Keep weight on rear wheels when lubing shafts.

Edit: I'm no longer using moly. It's ok for the slip yokes but I do have concerns with heat build up in spider bearings. The spiders are high speed roller bearing, moly retains heat something we don't want. So KISS is to just use one grease through, M1 #2 wheel bearing grease works well. I still like #1 to get grease following past dry seal at first.
 
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