Timing Issues SOLVED - 3FE Break-In Procedure Confirmation and Questions (1 Viewer)

4Cruisers

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I've been turning this over and over in my head for the past 15 minutes and think I've got it figured out. With the distributor installed (pretty sure per the FSM) and the distributor body slot centered on the bolt hole in the block, the timing was retarded. By turning the distributor body CCW as far as it could go, I could go past TDC and get it advanced to only 5* BTDC. So to get more advance (and more adjustment range within the ~28* of the slot) I think I need to reinstall the distributor one tooth CCW, so that the rotor, which spins CW, gets to the cylinder #1 position on the distributor cap sooner (more advance). Does that sound right?
 
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OK I had to go back and re-read. So before you were firing ATDC, so you turned the Disty body CCW to get the rotor to contact the spark plug wires sooner (Advance.) You could only advance to 5* BTDC need to get to 7* BTDC (or more.)

Don't you want to install the rotor one tooth CW since it turns CW - to get to the spark plug contact sooner (more Advance?)

(Sorry it's been a very long couple of days at work and I'm a bit foggy.)
 
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The actual rotor is spun by the cam shaft and that is what you are installing - the distributor body is just along for the ride and allows you the adjustment.
 

cruisermatt

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I've been turning this over and over in my head for the past 15 minutes and think I've got it figured out. With the distributor installed (pretty sure per the FSM) and the distributor body slot centered on the bolt hole in the block, the timing was retarded. By turning the distributor body CCW as far as it could go, I could go past TDC and get it advanced to only 5* BTDC. So to get more advance (and more adjustment range within the ~28* of the slot) I think I need to reinstall the distributor one tooth CCW, so that the rotor, which spins CW, gets to the cylinder #1 position on the distributor cap sooner (more advance). Does that sound right?

This is correct. Counter clockwise adjustment advances timing.
 

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Thanks, guys! Still fighting a nasty sinus infection, got bad enough yesterday afternoon I had to go to see the doctor. If I feel a little better this afternoon I'll take another stab at it (pun intended) and post up my results.
 

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OK, feeling quite a bit better today so dove in by trying a short-cut. Pulled the distributor and reinstalled it so the rotor ended up pointing about 28* CCW. Wouldn't even start. I should have just restarted the process per the FSM, it would have saved a lot of time! Anyway, I wanted to come up with an easy way to arrive at TDC on the compression stroke, so not a bad idea to start from the top. I ended up pulling plugs #1 - #4 (wires had already been pulled to remove the disrtibutor cap) and rotating the 3FE power steering pump CW (looking from the front of the vehicle), using a reversible Craftsman 19mm ratcheting box end wrench, until the wadded-up wet piece of paper towel popped out of the plug #1 hole. Then went a little further until the pointer (previously painted white) lined up with the scribed line (also painted white). Remember this is an '86 FJ60 with '89 3FE/'86 flywheel/H55f. I reinstalled the distributor so it's oriented like this, with the hold-down bolt in the center of the slot. Can't recall if this is the same position where I was off by a tooth, but at least it should start, and I'll check the timing again with TE1 and E1 jumpered. But before I go back out, here are some photos, all @TDC on the compression stroke with the distributor fully seated. The first photo is the orientation of the rotor and distributor body with the slot centered over the hold-down bolt. In the second photo the distributor body is rotated all the way CCW. In the third photo the body is rotated all the way CW.

3FE-Distributor-Body Centered.jpg


3FE-Distributor-Body-CCW.jpg


3FE-Distributor-Body-CW.jpg


Things look pretty much like they should per the FSM, time to go check it out. I'll report back in a few.
 

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OK, back in from the garage. Turns out the orientation is the inital one, where with the distributor body CCW as far as it can go the best I can get is 5*-6* BTDC. TE1 and E1 jumpered. Starts and runs well. Idles at 650 rpm after adjusting the the idle position screw a few days ago, didn't change that. At least I have the distributor orientation documented for this condition. Because this is very close to the FSM orientation, I'm thinking the timing gears were inadvertently installed off a tooth when the engine was rebuilt. Could that be the case?

BTW, I avoided what I thought could have been a major disaster, but thank goodness for that 15A EFI fuse! When I was trying to jumper TE1 and E1, E1 was in place and TE1 popped out and momentarily contacted B+. Well, the engine died right then and there and wouldn't restart. First thing that came to mind was that I fried the ECU or EFI main relay. I decided to first pull the fuse cover in the dash and check the EFI fuse, which was toast. I've got a bunch of spare fuses, so that was good. Then I grabbed some spare 14 AWG solid wire from the basement and made a real jumper, will throw out those old bent paper clips. A word of caution - be careful when jumpering the diagnostic port connections!

Back out to the garage again to try again from the beginning. I'll start by inserting the distributor one tooth CCW from where it's shown in the photos. And luckily I'm getting much more efficient at establishing TDC on the compression stroke.
 

NeverGiveUpYota

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Can’t you just stick your finger in the num 1 hole and feel for the air? Or better yet, peek in w/ a flashlight. I could see mine today clear as day all shiny and still very new.
 

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Can’t you just stick your finger in the num 1 hole and feel for the air? Or better yet, peek in w/ a flashlight. I could see mine today clear as day all shiny and still very new.
With the 3FE You need to be a contortionist with small hands to reach in there and feel anything, the wadded up piece of paper towel pops right out. Then a bit more using the PS pump pulley nut and you're there.
 
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I'll have to tackle it some more in the morning. I think I got the distributor over two teeth CCW, instead of the one I was shooting for. Dropped in nice and easy on the first try, I knew something had to be wrong with that picture. The 3FE won't start, but seemed like it could have been close with the distributor body rotated CW as far as it could go. Anyway, I took a photo to document the rotor position @TDC (w/centered slot) to compare to the earlier photo. To the best I can tell, the rotor position is close to 50* CCW from the last time, way more than the ~27* difference I was looking for. I'll nail this yet.

BTW, I've got the procedure down to about 30 minutes now, not too bad.

More updates in the morning.
 

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Well, I couldn't wait for morning. Went out to the garage for one more cycle. This time I'm sure I got to the point where I'm adjusted only one tooth off CCW from my initail attempt, not two - it falls right between the last two attempts. Buttoned everything up and it just barely starts, but dies immediately, and that's only when the distributor body is rotated all the way CCW. At my initial attempt, I could run well at 5* - 6* BTDC with the distributor body rotated to the same spot.

BTW, no CEL codes, light flashing normally.

Now I'm thinking I need to install the distributor one tooth further CW, not CCW, from the initial attempt. I think I went the wrong direction. Oh well, a lot of good documentaion, and I'm getting really fast at changing things up.

More updates tomorrow morning, maybe very early in the morning if I can't sleep :).
 

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This morning I was able to get the distributor installed one tooth CW from where it had initially been installed, that was the fix I was looking for. I had originally started by installing the distributor CCW from where it had been, only making it worse. Here's where it stands now (with TE1 and E1 jumpered):

Distributor body is rotated almost all the way CW in the slot

Timing is ~7-1/2* BTDC, so that gives me plenty of room to rotate the body CCW to gain more advance, which would help here at 7,240 feet

Idle set at 650 rpm on my Actron dwell/tach/voltmeter (tachometer in dash reads ~750 rpm)

At first it seemed that I had wasted a lot of time figuring this out, but I learned so much that'll be applicable to the '86 FJ60 and my other three Land Cruisers, all of which have, or will have, FJ60 electronic ignitions. I've also gotten really efficient with this type of work, especially getting to and knowing when piston #1 is at TDC. I also drew a few diagrams before starting this morning to get it straight in my head, and now it really makes sense. I was probably a little foggy in the brain over the past two days, fighting a sinus infection, and now that it's clearing up (literally) I was able to nail it. Looking back I feel pretty stupid, especially since I've owned my '84 FJ60 since new, along with other Land Cruisers along the way, and done most of the maintenance and all the the modifications by myself. Oh well.

I took it for a quick spin around the neighborhood a little while ago, then down into the canyon below the house and back up the steep grade. Has a little more pep than at 5* BTDC. In a little while my wife and I will take it for a Sunday drive up to the local ski area to put the 3FE under some load to finish the initial break-in. The road climbs about 1,400 feet in less than three miles, so that should give it a good workout. Next thing I'll do is advance the timing incrementally until the point where I get some pinging, then back it off some and document where it seems to drive best at this altitude.
 

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And while I was typing this last part up, USPS showed up with my latest Amazon purchase:

Wrench-1.jpg


Wrench-2.jpg


Wrench-3.jpg


Wrench-4.jpg


Wrench-5.jpg
 
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.... I'm thinking the timing gears were inadvertently installed off a tooth when the engine was rebuilt. Could that be the case?

If there is any possibility of this, you need to fix that ASAP. Valve timing can’t be fixed through compensation of ignition timing....although it sounds like you got it sorted and it was just distributor placement.
 

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If there is any possibility of this, you need to fix that ASAP. Valve timing can’t be fixed through compensation of ignition timing....although it sounds like you got it sorted and it was just distributor placement.
Yep, just distributor placement after all. The other good thing was the only CEL code was easily cleared by cleaning the connector for the water temperature sensor and plugging it back in. I had nightmares ahead of the first start-up of the 3FE that I'd be innundated with codes. Not only was the engine rebuilt, but I moved every system over from the '89 FJ62 donor vehicle, everything. I guess the 2-1/2 year time frame, taking extra care to document the work with copius notes and hundreds and hundreds of photos; and the use of hundreds of small and medium resealable bags, almost a thousand wired tags/labels, and dozens and dozens of kit boxes (thanks Amazon!) apparently paid off in everything going back together correctly.
 

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Sounds like it should be a well sorted rig now. You’ve had this one from new?
I've owned my '84 FJ60 since new, we bought it at Toyota West in Las Vegas shortly after moving the family to Nevada - the night we bought it at the dealership we struggled to decide on which Land Cruiser to buy, the new beige '84 FJ60 or the new Mustard Yellow '83 FJ40. I've also owned and driven a beige '82 Fj60, in addition to my FJ40s. Many years ago I read Jim Godwin's article in Four Wheeler magazine about fuel injecting an FJ60, and decided I'd like to do a build, but I didn't want to take the '84 FJ60 out of service. So I started looking at the Thrifty Nickel classifieds in Las Vegas. I ended up buying a rust-free '86 FJ60 for $1,200. It was complete except for the 2F, which had thrown a rod. Well, all I needed was a donor FJ62. When I was back in New Mexico for work I found a running '89 FJ62 in Santa Fe, but it had some body damage from a wreck coming off the ski hill (Taos or Santa Fe). I bought it from the original owner's son for $1,500 and replaced the front clip with parts from a parts '85 FJ60 I had also bought in Santa Fe. I drove it as a round headlight FJ62 for quite few years before pulling the 3FE to (finally) start my build. So that's a long-winded answer to your question. Moral of the story, it never hurts to pick up an extra Land Cruiser or two or three ...
 

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